further discussions from mikez trading journal

[mechanicaldaytrader]

moved from Using MiniDow Dayraider Upgrade journal poor bloke can't get a word in edgeways

Mike,
Sorry to hear you've had a few set backs. But, to be fair, that's to be expected. The idea that one learns a new methodology and hits the ground running and makes loads o' wonga day after day without any hiccups is unrealistic. So, as Stuart says, don't feel TOO bad! The key thing is that you seem to be aware of what you're doing right and, most importantly, what you're doing wrong. As this is a journal - your journal - it's main purpose is to facilitate your development as a trader. However, as you are aware, subscribers to the thread are particularly interested in your progress because you're trading Stuart's methodology. For both parties to get the maximum from the thread, I suggest you post all your trades, winners and losers. If you post the losing trades from last week and say what you did that caused the losses, this will make the journal more valuable for you and more insightful for those of us interested in Stuart's ideas. Just seeing a succession of winning trades - although impressive - isn't especially helpful or instructive.
Better luck next week!
Tim.

wow, your logic escapes me Tim...if he's NOT following the methodology, why would he post his trading history? If he's NOT following the risk management of the methodology, why would he post his actual trades?

Similar to taking a Drivers Ed course from someone that has had 3 accidents and been at fault at all 3 of them.

How about everybody just follow the freaking rules and the exact times that are specified (for trades & reversals)....and ACTUALLY set stop losses according to the methodology....THEN post whatever your actual trading experience is. It is absolutely impossible to have a $100+ loss using the methodology. Mike has made gobbs of money on winning methodology trades and lost most of it (according to him) by not following the same rules that helped MAKE the profis.

big losses occur when you are emotionally invested in a trade and refuse to take the loss when it first occurs. If you misread the market, take the $25 to $45 loss and wait for the next setup (set your watch!).

When someone doesn't wait for a trade they "guess". This is no place for guessing. You will lose your shirt in short order.

Trading institutional stops DO NOT lead to large slippage, so if you have a short set at 12 ticks stop loss (which is huge) and you get filled on the 19th, that would be a $95 loss. EDIT If you are trading Institutional Stops, you cannot have slippage of more than a couple ticks...it just ain't gonna happen, too much money is sitting there (going both ways). END EDIT

The only OTHER way a large loss occurs is if you are going the "wrong way" on an announcement time. If the market goes long after a 10 am announcement (for example) and you are short, you may get slammed....if that happens definitely hook up for a consultation with me to see what went wrong.

Of course, if you abstain from being in the market during major announcement times (exiting your current profitable trade), you will have very little risk of having a large stop out for years to come.

that's my opinion anyway. anyone is free to lose each and every shirt in their closet if they so choose.

The Mechanical Trader

 

[timsk]

wow, your logic escapes me Tim...if he's NOT following the methodology, why would he post his trading history? If he's NOT following the risk management of the methodology, why would he post his actual trades?

Similar to taking a Drivers Ed course from someone that has had 3 accidents and been at fault at all 3 of them.

How about everybody just follow the freaking rules and the exact times that are specified (for trades & reversals)....and ACTUALLY set stop losses according to the methodology....THEN post whatever your actual trading experience is. It is absolutely impossible to have a $100+ loss using the methodology. Mike has made gobbs of money on winning methodology trades and lost most of it (according to him) by not following the same rules that helped MAKE the profis.

Hi Stuart,
My logic is very simple, it goes like this. . .
You provided the THEORY, Mike is attempting to put it into PRACTICE. In trading, there is often a chasm between the two and, like it or not, this applies to your methodology. But, as I said in my last post, this is to be expected; it's not a criticism of you or your methodology. Mike's journal could be very helpful and instructive for everyone if he posts all of his trades as it will highlight the areas where he's experiencing difficulty executing the theory in real time with real money. It will also be helpful to you too as it will pinpoint specific issues that your students encounter putting the theory into practice. In turn, this will enable you to build into your teaching additional support, tips and solutions for the benefit of future students. This will help to bridge the gap between theory and practice and benefit your students P&L and yours as a vendor. If Mike only posts his winning trades as and when he gets them, readers of the thread will assume that he's incurring heavy losses in between. By contrast, being open and transparent in the manner I suggest is a win : win situation in which there is the potential for the student, prospective students and vendor to learn something of value.
Tim.

 

[mechanicaldaytrader]

haven't sold me....sorry....only trades that follow my rules should be taken. If Mike wants to start a new thread, such as "take a trade not following Dow Behavior rules and not setting stops according to what you are trained", then by all means Mike, start a new thread. But keep those trades out of this one.

Mike stated he did not follow the rules and when he did not follow the rules he had big losses. There's your "theory" and "practice". ANY large loss is not a part of my methodology...don't ANYONE try to hang a large loss on what I teach. If someone has large losses, they are entirely responsible for it, it just cannot happen if you only trade institutional stops, 3 causes of all reversals and Dow Behaviors.

The Dow Behaviors are fairly precise...and there are many occurrences each week. If you don't wait for the Dow Behaviors and/or don't wait for one of the three causes of reversal, then you're not trading my methodology.

The first page of my course talks about "humility" and being teachable. No gunslingers are allowed - you will lose a lot of $. Everyone is warned right up front.

The Mechanical Trader

 

[timsk]

Hi Stuart,

haven't sold me....sorry....only trades that follow my rules should be taken. If Mike wants to start a new thread, such as "take a trade not following Dow Behavior rules and not setting stops according to what you are trained", then by all means Mike, start a new thread. But keep those trades out of this one.

Sorry not to have 'sold' you; that's a shame. Matters arising: firstly, it's Mike's journal and he can do as he pleases. Secondly, you'll not find a single person on the planet that's able to do as you suggest. You'll be aware (better than me, no doubt) that not all the Turtles followed the rules to the 'T -' as laid down by Richard Dennis. If you (as a vendor) are not able to take on board, accomnodate, learn from and help students that deviate from your methodology (for whatever reason), then that reflects poorly upon you as a tracher/vendor. The sympathies of subscribers to the thread and other (prospective) students are more likely to lie with Mike than they are with you.

Mike stated he did not follow the rules and when he did not follow the rules he had big losses. There's your "theory" and "practice". ANY large loss is not a part of my methodology...don't ANYONE try to hang a large loss on what I teach. If someone has large losses, they are entirely responsible for it, it just cannot happen if you only trade institutional stops, 3 causes of all reversals and Dow Behaviors.

I'm not for one minute attempting to hang a large loss on what you teach. Nor is Mike, as far as I'm aware. You say:"ANY large loss is not a part of my methodology". Well, no sh1t Sherlock, you don't say! Name me a vendor who does!!!!! Of course it's not part of anyones methodology but, unfortunately, it tends to be a part of trading life. It's not a one way street Stuart, you can't wash your hands of Mike (and your other students) when they don't follow the methodology exactly, 100% of the time. A discretionary method (which yours is, to a greater or lesser extent) that doesn't take account of the foibles of human beings isn't worth the paper it's written on.

The Dow Behaviors are fairly precise...and there are many occurrences each week. If you don't wait for the Dow Behaviors and/or don't wait for one of the three causes of reversal, then you're not trading my methodology.

That's fair enough. But, here's a question for you: if Mike posted all his trades, is there any reason to think that when he deviates from your methodology and gets it wrong - he wouldn't hold up his hands and say: 'my mistake, I went off-plan with this one and completely deviated from the rules'? I don't think so - he comes across as an intelligent, reasonable, fair minded and concientious student who has as good a chance of executing your methodology as anyone else. Besides which, even if he does deviate from your methodology, this is an open forum and you have ample opportunity to point out the error of his ways. Yet again, this is another shining example of how everyone can benefit from the situation.

The first page of my course talks about "humility" and being teachable. No gunslingers are allowed - you will lose a lot of $. Everyone is warned right up front.

Again, that's fair enough. But why not let Mike post his trades and point out to him (and us) where he's going wrong? Isn't that far more useful and beneficial for all concerned? You (as the tutor/vendor) get to learn the mistakes that your students tend to make and have the opportunity to rectify them. Prospective students get to see how helpful you are and are impressed by your willingness and desire to see your students succeed. As things stand, this post and your last one play into the hands of vtrop22 and your other critics who maintain you're a scam merchant that's only interested in lining his own pockets. If you joined me in requesting that Mike posts all his trades and helped him when he gets it wrong, you'd not only help him, but win over your critics and sceptics at the same time.
Tim.

 

[mechanicaldaytrader]

Houston, it does not compute...

Mike is free to do what he wants. I would think that he would post his NON One Minute Methodology trades (many times with large losses) in a thread titled "Not Following the One Minute Methodology Rules". Maybe he had some great wins, but he hasn't stated that yet to me.

The trades that DO follow the rules - whatever they yield wins or losses (most likely small losses) should be in a thread relating to the DayRaider Upgrade. DRU trades "institutional stops" nothing else. This keeps things pretty objective and mechanical...moving stops away from the entry when the trade is starting to "go south" is verboten! Take the $45 loss (or smaller) and move to the next setup.

I checked some websites regarding Turtle Traders...nowhere can I find trading journals that record folks NOT following the rules.

If there are instances where Mike finds the rules DO NOT WORK, then by all means mention that, since this is "real world".

Since you're not a DRU user, you have no idea what the stops and trade entry criteria are, if you want to debate further, you're more than welcome to start a new thread...starting with the fact that you don't know the trading rules. lol

Coming from an IT background with controlled variables, flow charts, etc..if the rules are knowingly ignored by the subscriber then the results should at least be footnoted or separated. Only attempts to follow the rules (whether successful or not) should be in the trade journal, imo. If the rules are unrealistic or full of hooey, then by all means bring that to light!

You're more than welcome to start your own trading methodology and have anyone you want ignore the rules and post a unrealistic trade journals that will be, of course, invalid..since the critieria were knowingly not followed.

are we all witnessing a T2W flame attempt? looks like it to me.

I know Mike has had a couple winning trades so far today and he entered both with Dow Behaviors with tight stops, since he sent them to me via Skype. On one trade he got out on the first objective and the balance of contracts out at the second objective. I advised him to move a stop to breakeven instead of risking a stop out (his stop was trying to hold on to a small profit)...other than that, he's done it all on his own today!

Yo Mike!

The Mechanical Trader

 

[timsk]

. . . are we all witnessing a T2W flame attempt? looks like it to me.

Stuart, c'mon - get real . . .

Quoted from Wikipedia:
"Flaming is a hostile and insulting interaction between Internet users. Flaming usually occurs in the social context of a discussion board, Internet Relay Chat (IRC) or even through e-mail. An Internet user typically generates a flame response to other posts or users posting on a site, and such a response is usually not constructive, does not clarify a discussion, and does not persuade others. Sometimes, flamers attempt to assert their authority, or establish a position of superiority over other users. Other times, a flamer is simply an individual who believes he or she carries the only valid opinion. This leads him or her to personally attack those who disagree. In some cases, flamers wish to upset and offend other members of the forum, in which case they can be called "trolls". Most often however, flames are angry or insulting messages transmitted by people who have strong feelings about a subject."

I have been a member of this website for a very long time and am a former 'T2W Advisor'. Currently, I'm one of the candidates that's applied for the vacancy of 'T2W Content Editor'. If you seriously think that I'm attempting to flame this forum, then I urge you to report your concerns to the the mod's, admin' and Sharky and let them decide. Suffice it to say, regardless of whether or not I'm appointed to the post, I'm very confident of their response. I have always been respectful of you and shown you every courtesy. Indeed, I've supported you when others have attacked you unfairly or without real justification. For you to suggest that I'm flaming simply because I dare question some of your comments, says a great deal more about you than it does about me and it won't win you any friends or new subscribers.
Tim.

 

[vrtrop22b]

okay, okay, I will bring up the 10 ton pink elephant in the room that no one wants to bring up. Stuart why don't you just post all those winning trades that you are pulling off day after day and of course your few losers. Since your student Mike admittedly can't pull it off like you, Mr. Perfect. I mean Tim has been more than reasonable with you, more than you deserve imho. To me, you will always be a false prophet all profit.

 

[vrtrop22b]

This thread on ET caught my eye. I think it sums up the way I feel perfectly:

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