Experience with psych-cybernetics?

bansir

Well-known member
494 42
Hi Empty Pocket,
The pdf looks v. interesting, thanks for pointing it out. I'll have a good read through later on.

I'm not a successful trader, just broke and enthusiastic :) and I can't recommend anyone to consult on psycho-cybernetics and it's application to trading- (not much use am I!) :))
However, I have read what I believe may form part of the source material for the pdf in your link.

I came accross "Psycho-Cybernetics" by Maxwell Maltz many years ago. I don't see it refered to by the pdf. I may be mistaken though; I have only skimmed the file.

Max Maltz, M.D., F.I.C.S., received his baccalaureate in science from Columbia University and his dotorate in medicine at its College of Physicians and surgeons.

He became a successful plastic surgeon.
He died in 1975.
The book is of 1960 copyright and the addition I have was published in 1965.
Maltz found that as a result of his work, changing people's looks drastically (in some cases )that in effect although he was working on their physical image, he was actually helping them aquire a new self-image .

This effect caused him to develop the ideas outlined in his book. Very powerful ideas as it turns out.

I have my copy on my desk as I type this, IMHO well worth buying and reading and re-reading
every so often. I suspect the querky title puts many off, a shame really.

Anyway, sorry if you know all this; just thought I'd speak up 'cause I rate the book.

ISBN 0-671-70075-8


Best Regards,
Neil
 

bansir

Well-known member
494 42
Beg your pardon EP...it's mentioned in the bibliography-first line (doh!)

All the best.
Neil
 

pkfryer

Active member
243 0
Looks good!

I practice meditation and visualization too. I was into the new age and have been meditating and doing yoga for many years. i have always known that mind and beliefs play the biggest part in our success and failure. We are our own worst enemies (mostly). The untrained mind lacks focus and is easily distracted.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the reason why people fail at Trading isn't because its really difficult but because its money! Most people fail in their lives, money, relationships, fulfillment. They have debt they struggle to pay bills and have hardly anything left for pleasure at the end of the day. So along comes trading... their subconscious mind wont allow them to have money for 'nothing'... They feel they dont deserve it, feel excited when profit comes, likes its a parent giving presents.. and feel sad and tearful when losses happen.. because its like sweeties being snatched away. They dont take responsibility for the gaining and losing! They feel they dont deserve it. Most people do. Its a recipe for disaster!

Being calm is one thing.... but you have to work on your self esteem and self belief. Do you have money now? Good with money before trading, plenty of it? Yes? Your beliefs about money are probably in gear. However, you could have issues even so surround having money for not 'working hard'... then you'll still fail even if you were a financial success before.

Esteem... self image... belief patterns.. Addressing these should be the first thing we do, or at least alongside our efforts to learn the skills involved. With skill and knowledge... but a negative self image and beliefs... we'll still fail! 95% of people fail full stop! Its not just trading.

I also believe that meditation... stilling the mind in itself can help to refocus the mind and change beliefs. But its a long journey.

I think you are right to start focusing on psychology Empty Pocket! Its as vital to success as using stop losses and money management.
 

TWI

Senior member
2,532 253
I think these are all valid points but would spend less time on self actualisation than on develping a system that makes money.
All that is really required in the market is a system and rock hard discipline to stick with it.
Once you have something that makes you a living, then concentrate on further refining yourself.
95% of people fail because they do not have a defined methodology or do not stick to one.
 

pkfryer

Active member
243 0
"All that is really required in the market is a system and rock hard discipline to stick with it.
Once you have something that makes you a living, then concentrate on further refining yourself.
95% of people fail because they do not have a defined methodology or do not stick to one."

twalker you misunderstand what Im saying...

You will subconsciously sabotage yourself if your beliefs and self-image aren't in gear with you having wealth and success! You will NOT have self discipline to use a system, you will not find a system that works (or if you do you will not stick with it) and you will make the choices that will create your 'deserved' failure! You will not be totally in control.

People are messed up mostly, most people are... even those that are really successful can actually be in a terrible state inside. Take Jesse Livermore for example, he was incredibly successful... he was a brilliant trader... yet he was miserable, depressed and committed suicide! So we can even be a successful trader with millions and still be a failure.. it will not bring us what we want unless our minds are in gear.

We fail because that is what we feel we deserve. We feel we NEED to go out ot work to make a living. These are the main reasons we fail at trading. Our low self esteem and poverty consciousness. Why are we so stubborn to take losses, why do we grab profit too quickly? Its poverty consciousness... its psychology. We need to address this or we will fail.

Have you ever felt shy, nervous, angry... but didn't know why? Were you in control of yourself then? ever did something even though you knew you should do something else... like not study for an exam because you can't be bothered? Didn't ask that girl out... Didn't try to do something you really wanted to do?

I myself knew all the theories and knew the right thing to do... but still almost blew my account a second time. Its psychological!

I know this is off the topic a bit for you Empty Pocket... but it is related. We have to train our mind to deserve success and accept it, to deserve wealth... as well as train it to be calm and focused. But we will sabotage ourselves if the feeling of deserving isn't there!
 

JFK

Member
71 0
Only good can come of it.

I also remember the Maxwell Maltz book being given to me many years ago. It was recommended reading to a car salesman friend who attended a sales training course. It basically had nothing to do with car sales or trading, but gives you a great opportunity to look at yourself & find out why you act & do thing the way you do.
One chapter of the URL is a good insight. Remember you have created & taught yourself any bad habits you have. So it’s down to you to teach yourself new good habits.
It would be better than reading a book or listening to some half wit who doesn’t trade but thinks they come up with a good trading strategy!
 

frugi

1
1,827 126
Hi pkfryer,

I agree with a lot of what you say, in that our emotions often sabotage a perfectly good strategy, leading us to stupid irrational decisions, but where did you get the idea that trading is not hard work? IMHO it is anything but easy; in fact I believe it is one of the hardest endeavours a human can attempt, especially if one wishes to reach the top level. I cannot believe anyone who succeeds at trading thinks they do not deserve the rewards because they are, in their own eyes, effectively shirking. Hard work doesn't have to mean breaking rocks all day, surely? Forgive me if I have misunderstood you or am oversimplifying your argument*

So along comes trading... their subconscious mind wont allow them to have money for 'nothing'.
However, you could have issues even so surround having money for not 'working hard'..
We feel we NEED to go out ot work to make a living.

*admittedly those starting for the first time may think it amounts to little more than pushing buttons, but they soon realise the body of work involved.
 
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TWI

Senior member
2,532 253
Frugi,
Having just finished another 12hr day infront of my screen, I totally agree with you.
 

MysticalTrader

Active member
165 1
quite right, self-knowledge is all, recall the inscription above the portal of the Oracle at Delphi. Self-knowledge and self-understanding can be useful for 2 reasons relevant to traders:

1. it can help you to understand how your conscious and unconscious minds work and why, which can put you in control of the unconscious impulses pkfryer refers to.
2. It can help you understand others (well, not *all* others, there are always the complete loonies to consider), whioch can help you understand their motivations and actions.

...

... ...

wonder what it all means...




pkfryer said:
"All that is really required in the market is a system and rock hard discipline to stick with it.
Once you have something that makes you a living, then concentrate on further refining yourself.
95% of people fail because they do not have a defined methodology or do not stick to one."

[snip]
!
 

pkfryer

Active member
243 0
What I'm saying though twalker and frugi is that its not like any other job out there. We are self employed and are effectively producing money out of 'nothing'.

I dont necessarily believe that trading is so difficult though. That is just a belief. If someone comes up to you and says: "I do these steps, I use this method this way... thats how I make money" Follow the steps, follow the methods and you will get the same results. If you do exactly the same thing as somebody else that succeeds, you will succeed to. How is that so difficult?

But if our beliefs are out of sync we will sabotage, not follow the method, gamble, risk too much.. etc.

I actually dont consider trading as hard work as my previous occupation: software engineering. But yes, I do spend long hours studying charts, reading, researching, testing, experimenting... then there is the long process of searching for signals, setting up orders, following open orders, keeping records etc etc. Of course its effort, but in comparison to going out to work and all the hassle? The amount of earning potential when trading is way way beyond what we could achieve with getting to the very top of a profession. If I became hugely successful in the software industry I might make 100+K a year, if Im lucky... but most of my career will be spent scrimping and saving. If I get successful at trading its anyones guess what I could achieve.

Also, the expense of going to work, the stress... There is no doubt in my mind that trading is easier than going to work for a living..

But you understand my points about money? Most people have big hangups over money. I believe it is this problem that causes people to fail rather than the difficulty of the skills required for trading.
 

frugi

1
1,827 126
pk,

Absolutely understand your points about some people feeling uncomfortable with wealth and the resultant covert undermining of technique by an almost guilty subconscious, though I don't think this discomfort applies solely to trading. I also agree that a ten second commute downstairs is far more agreable than one from Leeds to Manchester in rush hour traffic (although working from home can create stress in other ways: sudden lack of daily social contact, work/play boundaries blurred, distractions e.g. "I really should manage this trade but those tiles are crying out for a grouting") and I would certainly choose the former by a yard of chalk.

Trading is certainly dissimilar to many jobs, although I would suggest it is by no means utterly unlike all. For instance, novelists, musical composers, professional chess players and perhaps top level programmers create "money (or often just bad art - aargh JK Rowling :p ) from nothing" as you put it (my brackets) and I am sure there are many other jobs in which people are paid essentially for the isolated power of their thought .

The ability to think clearly in a sustained manner, to continually acquire fresh knowledge, to adapt to change, to maintain the discipline to consistently transform that thought into a useful result, by way of methodical, rational action and constant re-evaluation constitutes hard work in my book. Perhaps I am poorly wired for trading and find it more difficult than most. The lack of tangible results (as in "look, I just built this Eiffel Tower!") does fool some people into thinking trading does not constitute work: my grandfather is always asking me what I produce, why the world cannot see the results of my efforts. I tell him the definition of production I most like is the 'application of reason to the problem of survival': production at its most basic level, its essence if you like. From this premise there may indeed follow manual labour and a physical result, e.g a hunting spear, 400 well packed boxes of chocolates or a tastefully lanscaped rockery (this labour>>tangible result is perhaps the conventional, "old-school" definition of work) but it is not a prerequisite to allow the work to qualify as difficult, or indeed as work at all. Anyway I digress and think we touched upon this in another thread.

The abstract nature of the market, the lack of boundaries and definitions, the lack of "Well done, you've clearly finished that project" (a trader's work is never finished - it is a true lifetime challenge) all contribute to the difficulty. Yes, it is an unusual, unnatural and potentially deadly playground with which our brains must struggle daily.

Perhaps one could just buy a black box system from somebody else, ensure the methodology remains unknown and not understood, take absolutely no interest in the market and leave it to autotrade for very little effort at all, but I would not call that person a trader.

I can see I'm going to have trouble justifying that last statement, but I do believe it. :D I'm enjoying the discussion too.
 
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TWI

Senior member
2,532 253
I do not think you do too well in this game unless you are totally absorbed in it. So agree that this is far,far more attractive than any other job i can think of. I would not get too excited about "potential" earnings however, there are plenty of traders who never get beyond earning a reasonable living, they don't all become billionaires many just continue to chase a carrot and never get beyond a certain point. I don't think it is possible to know where this point is until you get there. Actually not sure we ever know if we are there either, we just keep on chasing bigger PnL's and exposures.
Despite the fact that I am a complete market junkie I still say it is hard work, mainly due to the hours I spend at my desk, admittedly time flies and life flits past all too quickly but I do define this as hard work, I work harder now than I ever did even for the city slave-drivers. Difference is nobody is forcing me too. Actually I can not imagine doing anything else anymore, apart from curing the World of all know diseases of course which may include this one.
 

spreadboy

Junior member
17 4
twalker, nicely summed up! Trading is a way of life, not a job! It's also 90% psycological so mental prep can certainly enhance performance.
 
 
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