Depression - beginner trading hangover

[John Cyprus]

I agree with Mr. Charts totally.

Personally I too had losses which just mounted up to a horid point. Went on a course and learnt a method by sandy jadeja which suited me down to the ground.

My trading got better then I just took trades without following the rules and also at a time when I should not have been trading due to an illness. Guess what? I started to lose and then I did the best thing. I stopped before it got worse and then thought about where I went wrong. Me, it was all about me trying to beat the method taught and getting smart.

Welll the market was smarter and I re-visited my course manual, re-did my trading plan which I should have done in the first place and now am trading much better.

So the best thing to do when one is losing "stay out" and wait until you are in the right frame of mind.

JC

 

[pkfryer]

This thread has been very useful.

I think psychology has the biggest part to play in it! This must be a very tough game if so many fall by the wayside and those that seem to succeed have had huge losses (bigger than my £20K)! I thought I had been a complete idiot for not stopping and re-assessing the siuation earlier! How could I have been so insensitive to the problem whilst my capital was melting in the glarying sun of my ignorance? I would lose afew thousand and trade harder! And lose more, trade more 'cunning', and lose less money but more often.

The biggest problem I had was that I NEEDED to trade all the time. I felt that I must be in the market at every moment for me to hit the big wins! I was also always going for the home runs instead of take regular consistent small wins. Not having a system or a plan was stupidity... how could I have expected to win without an edge?

Seems so obvious now looking back, but wasn't then. I'm now out of the market, dabbling here and there with small trades to test out indicators and systems. Doing a lot of back testing (one tick at a time) with various systems which is being very helpful and giving me experience of reading the chart and indicators as well as making decisions at the hard right edge. I'm also, happy to wait for the right moment rather than jump in. I also seem to have developed the ability to recognise a dodgy set up and leave it alone! e.g. If there are lots of condensed bars in a tight channel.. its consolidation... and would be madness to trade it as the moves last only a few bars and are only a few ticks high!!! But I would trade them before second guessing the break and being horribly beaten up for it!! Extremely choppy moves are murder and why do it, when if you have a nose around or wait, there will be opportunities that give very easier flowing oscillations that last weeks, or lovely strong trends!

So, now I wait and look for good opportunities. But I'm still reading the indicators wrong or read the situation wrong. But I'm not trading the big sizes any more. There are still times when I'll think: "This looks like a dead cert!! I'll do it big just this once...", then another part of me thinks: "Nothings a dead cert! Last time I did this on a 100% definite set up, it blew a couple of grand! Stick to the plan!" A constant battle!

....

I wanted to share this strange feeling I have and see if any of you have had the same feeling! As my paper trading has started to show profit and I started to believe that maybe I could make a lot of money out of the market given enough time. A thought came into my mind: I dont deserve this success! This is too easy. : All I have to do is read a chart, click a few buttons and be able to create thousands of pounds out of thin air!! This should be a thrilling idea, and is to most people and a part of myself! But another part of me keeps thinking: If I dont do something useful to make money, I dont deserve it! And another: What if I have everything I ever wanted in my life... what will there be to strive for then? My whole life has been striving towards having property and money, so that I can have the good things in life. But what if I could have them now? I'd have nothing left!

These are strange illogical thoughts but I have noticed them when I have been analysing my thoughts towards the market. I feeling of: If I can bypass the need to do something else for someone (a service, make something, etc) and just cut to the wick and make money out of nothing... am I deserving it? And what will I do when I can have everything I want? Will life not be empty.. without strife and challenge, will I not lead a petty pointless life!

I'm not saying I consciously believe that.... but they are thoughts that are there! They are thoughts that will work against me! Has anybody ever had them, or have a sneaking suspicion that they might have similar thoughts? If you had them, how did you get rid of them? Or does the experience of success naturally dissolve them.

I dont want psychological forces to ruin me! As I 100% believe: "We are our own worst enemy!"

 

[firehorse]

I wanted to share this strange feeling I have and see if any of you have had the same feeling! As my paper trading has started to show profit and I started to believe that maybe I could make a lot of money out of the market given enough time. A thought came into my mind: I dont deserve this success! This is too easy. : All I have to do is read a chart, click a few buttons and be able to create thousands of pounds out of thin air!! This should be a thrilling idea, and is to most people and a part of myself! But another part of me keeps thinking: If I dont do something useful to make money, I dont deserve it! And another: What if I have everything I ever wanted in my life... what will there be to strive for then? My whole life has been striving towards having property and money, so that I can have the good things in life. But what if I could have them now? I'd have nothing left!

These are strange illogical thoughts but I have noticed them when I have been analysing my thoughts towards the market. I feeling of: If I can bypass the need to do something else for someone (a service, make something, etc) and just cut to the wick and make money out of nothing... am I deserving it? And what will I do when I can have everything I want? Will life not be empty.. without strife and challenge, will I not lead a petty pointless life!

I'm not saying I consciously believe that.... but they are thoughts that are there! They are thoughts that will work against me! Has anybody ever had them, or have a sneaking suspicion that they might have similar thoughts? If you had them, how did you get rid of them? Or does the experience of success naturally dissolve them.

I dont want psychological forces to ruin me! As I 100% believe: "We are our own worst enemy!"

The more I read, the more the pros talk about getting the psychology part right.

If you have self-worth and self-respect without money, then you will have it when you have money. Money and material stuff does equal to self-worth and self-repect, although it can give the illusion

Note that you did not 'just' read a chart and click buttons, you would have spent your time and money (20K) learning how to read the chart and 'when' to click the button.

You can always see a counsellor / psychotherapist / hynotherapist / NLP etc. and get the thinking right You may need to dig out from your past where those beliefs come from and have them challenged, exposed as false to both the logical and emotional side of the mind and have them melt away (my speciality!)

Once you've achieved your goal of monetary freedom you can then move onto other things

Congrats on picking up the thoughts that may sabotage you later on
--
Alan

 

[donaldduke]

If I can bypass the need to do something else for someone (a service, make something, etc) and just cut to the wick and make money out of nothing... am I deserving it?

You are providing a service: you are providing liquidity to the market place. You are putting
your capital at risk and you deserve a high return for the high risks you are taking.
Do you feel that you dont deserve the interest you earn on the money you have in your savings
account?

And what will I do when I can have
everything I want? Will life not be empty.. without strife and challenge, will I not lead a petty pointless life!

If you make more money than you can possibly spend then you can give the rest of your money
away to charities at the end of every month. That would harldly be a petty or pointless life would
it?

 

[pkfryer]

Firehorse and donaldduke

Thank you... you are both right.

Infact, trading touches the deep part of your psyche more than any other activity, this in itself makes us develop as people.

Yes, give money away to charities is something I thought of before... give away a tenth of the money I make through the stock market would make me feel that I am benefiting society and not being a sponger! (strange that i am thinking like this when i have lost so much of my capital in the past!) You are also right that speculation drives the financial wheels of the world, the money drives the mechanisms and without speculation there would be no money available for innovation and expansion.

Also, if our minds and bodies are freed from the need to work to live, we would gravitate to the things that would allow us to lead a much more fullfilling life.

One thing that I could never bear was the fact that hard honest work is a sham! Capitalism works by companies over charging customers and under paying employees!! Profit drives capitalism and in the name of profit companies dehumanise us! Is it so virtuous to work for a company who is a selfish money grabbing monster! I remember working my guts out on a project and getting paid £20K salary, they sold the product for £2 million profit!

It is difficult having so many conflicting thoughts in my head! I think making money in the stock market is the most useful thing I have ever learned (or will ever learn)... why work my ******** off for a selfish company and be treated like **** for a few filthy quid when I can make 10 or 100 times more by learning to trade!

The beliefs I have had come from my grandmother who always prided herself in being poor and said that "hard work makes an honest man". I dont believe this but it is interesting how the psychology can be there, subconsciously sabotaging our conscious efforts! How many times have we 'fallen in love' with the wrong person, or couldn't motivate our selves to study for exams eventually failing! Or... traded wrecklessly and blew tens of thousands!!

 

[wheezergeezer]

PKFryer, hard work doesnt equal wealth, if you love what you then it isnt work, mistakes are more valuable than sucess's but only if you learn from that experience, otherwise your doomed to repeat it

 

[firehorse]

The beliefs I have had come from my grandmother who always prided herself in being poor and said that "hard work makes an honest man". I dont believe this but it is interesting how the psychology can be there, subconsciously sabotaging our conscious efforts! How many times have we 'fallen in love' with the wrong person, or couldn't motivate our selves to study for exams eventually failing! Or... traded wrecklessly and blew tens of thousands!!

The beliefs come from someone you love very much which gives anything they say authority and truth. Often these beliefs are instilled at an early age before you have a chance to distinguish what is opinion and what is fact and the 'opinions' of other people gets 'installed' in you as a child as 'fact' which is often hard to challenge later on.

If "hard work makes an honest man", then if you don't 'appear' to be working hard then that would make you a 'dishonest' man (subconsciously). If your grandmother prided herself on being poor then if you become rich then you will 'separate' yourself from her beliefs, approval and love (even if she has passed away). If might even mean you 'dis-respect' her ideals and beliefs and in some way you are attacking and hurting her.

Not my first choice of treatment but the following may just be enough to get you past the limiting beliefs.

Get a piece of paper. Write down every thought and belief that limits your trading in one column. In another column, for every single limiting belief write down one or more examples that has happened in your life that contradicts those beliefs. Then remember each one of the contradicting beliefs in a much detail as possible e.g. visual, auditory, feelings, smells, etc. (how the subconscious works) then immediately think about the belief that is limiting your trading. Repeat this "Compare and contrast" until it becomes obvious that the belief limiting the trading is no longer true for you.

You need to get to a stage where you don't just 'know it logically', you need to 'believe it emotionally' at the very core of your being so it becomes a 'part' of you and the original limiting belief becomes non-sensical (as much as you love and respect your grandmother, she's entitled to her 'opinions' (which clearly do not apply to you) and you are entitled to yours.)

If that doesn't work then my advice is to get professional help until you are 100% happy with clicking a button, getting loads of money and not feel guilty about it. Even 1% doubt could make you hesitate and mean you losing money rather than making money. If the pros are saying trading is 80% mental and 20% technique, then sorting this out is more important than figuring out how to do the trading

Good luck
--
Alan

PS if the above works you can pay the receptionist on your way out :cheesy:

 

[pkfryer]

Thanks very much Alan! Are you a hynotherapist or NLP practitioner? I'll give that exercise a go! I know too well how beliefs and mental images get in our way!

I have been aware of mental sabotage for a while in many areas of my life. I actually studied psychology at university for the first year before sabotaging it and dropping out

Sometimes you never become fully aware of your beliefs until you come accross something that challenges them. Sometimes our beliefs are so unquestionable we are not even consciously aware that they are beliefs at all, but they are accepted as unshakable truths of reality! How many times have we hated a relative, but kept in touch with them? Why? Because they are relatives! What does that have to do with it? If you dont like someone, dont have them in your life! (just an example which springs to mind).

I know that we often make decisions subconsciously and then consciously try and reason why we made the decision...

Like me at the moment... I should start an Open University unit but every time I make an effort to start it, I am too lazy or tired or I need to clean something! etc. I'm not making a decision consciously at all! My subconscious mind is controlling me by making me procrastinate or feel negative emotions!

And with the trading... I jumped around wrecklessly trading... Why? Why did I get so emotional at a particular time? What made me think there was a 'profitable' pattern at that time? Was it that I really wanted to lose? I need life to be hard for it to be worth while living? I need to be poor to be virtuous?

And... the other side of the coin!! If my subconscious mind knew exactly what to do to make me poor? Could it not have enough information in there to make me rich already? If my subconscious mind recognises a bad pattern, it could just as easily recognise a good one too even without me consciously realising it!

I believe it is really psychology that differentiates the winners from the losers! Not just in trading but in life in general. Perhaps the 95% losers/ 5% winners is the same in all areas of life and the trading statistics merely mirror this!

Interesting...

 

[TheBramble]

Get a piece of paper. Write down every thought and belief that limits your trading in one column. In another column, for every single limiting belief write down one or more examples that has happened in your life that contradicts those beliefs. Then remember each one of the contradicting beliefs in a much detail as possible

Alan, I appreciate the positive intent of your advice to pk, but there are a couple of things that need to be mentioned.

The first is that therapy given in this manner is rarely effective, certainly not as effective as that from a face-to-face..

Second point, and the most important one, is that the process you have suggested could well lead to a certain degree of discomfort or even psychological distress if the conflict between pk's current inner beliefs (however limiting they may be to his trading endeavours) and the knowledge of having contradicted them is enhanced by a full spectrum sensual re-enactment.

This stuff shouldn't be played with unless you're supervised by a professionally trained therapist.

I no longer coach or provide therapeutic support, but there are so many qualified people around who can help that I'm sure if pk is that interested (and I hope you are pk!) he will be able to find a practitioner/therapist close by.

 

[pkfryer]

Bramble? Are you a therapist too? Or specialised in trading psychology?

Its too late anyway... I am already aware of having conflicting beliefs! I have gone to many therapists in the past (not that Im mad or anything) but maybe Im just more aware. My mother always had books on psychology and hypnotherapy and I loved reading them even as young as 8!! The therapist I have gone to have ranged from hypnotists, hypnotherapists to psychosynthesis and NLP. (not for trading or money I should add.. but for low self esteem and social phobia (shyness)) They all help to some degree but yet again, it takes effort and will power to over come everything. A few sessions with a stranger isn't going to solve that much! And doesn't tend to... it just gives you a push in the right direction when you've temporarility faltered!

NLP is primarily a self-help set of mental exercises and various other mind control exercises (Silva method of mind control.. and self hypnosis).. use similar exercises as described above.

I think, only if you are heavily in to psychoanalysis would you consider them dangerous. Anyone of sound mind can handle conflicting beliefs and imagery.

Although having said that... it would be nice to see a therapist who specialises in trading/performance psychology! I might be tempted to hunt down a specialist in performance/sport psychology and have a few sessions for beliefs in money as well! You can only do so much by yourself... at certain points you need a helping hand I think trading is a skill eventually modelled subconsciously more resembling sport, hence why I think a sport psychologist would be of most use to traders!

 

[firehorse]

Thanks very much Alan! Are you a hynotherapist or NLP practitioner? I'll give that exercise a go! I know too well how beliefs and mental images get in our way!

My day job is a health therapist (kinesiology & EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique) practitioner) and a programmer. As a holistic health therapist I often see health problems linked to emotions and belief systems ... and belief systems is a little hobby of mine

If you get movement on any beliefs then please feedback. If not then (as TheBramble quite rightly pointed out) you probably need professional help to guide you in the right direction.

The first is that therapy given in this manner is rarely effective, certainly not as effective as that from a face-to-face..

I 100% agree with you, which is why I said it was not my first choice

Second point, and the most important one, is that the process you have suggested could well lead to a certain degree of discomfort or even psychological distress if the conflict between pk's current inner beliefs (however limiting they may be to his trading endeavours) and the knowledge of having contradicted them is enhanced by a full spectrum sensual re-enactment.

Once again I totally agree with you, which is why in the first post I did suggest professional help.

But as PK provided more information and revealed the extent he knew what was going on, plus his open attitude to questions things, I judged that the advice I gave would be used sensibly so I thought there would be no harm to give pk a nudge in the right direction ... if he so wished

I haven' t read any other posts in this section as this topic title caught my eye and I have been following it, so I don't know if there are any protocols for giving advice. If I have overstepped any boundaries then I apologize.

The therapist I have gone to have ranged from hypnotists, hypnotherapists to psychosynthesis and NLP. (not for trading or money I should add.. but for low self esteem and social phobia (shyness)) They all help to some degree but yet again, it takes effort and will power to over come everything. A few sessions with a stranger isn't going to solve that much! And doesn't tend to... it just gives you a push in the right direction when you've temporarility faltered!

My opinion (without taking a case history) would be that the self-esteem has everything to do with the trading and money! And my completely biased opinion is that a few sessions with EFT would solve not everything but quite a lot I wouldn't have bothered studying it otherwise. I gave the tyres on that therapy a good kicking!! :cheesy:

Although having said that... it would be nice to see a therapist who specialises in trading/performance psychology! I might be tempted to hunt down a specialist in performance/sport psychology and have a few sessions for beliefs in money as well! You can only do so much by yourself... at certain points you need a helping hand I think trading is a skill eventually modelled subconsciously more resembling sport, hence why I think a sport psychologist would be of most use to traders!

My biased opinion (and experience) would be to find someone who has done the 'emotional freedom technique' as a swift and painless way to resolve most emotional problems. A quick search on google should set you on the right track.

Good luck
--
Alan

 

[llew]

Self Sabotage

Hi PK
I've been struggling with a very similar beliefs to yourself.I've studied a bit on Transactional Analysis and that has given me an insight into how we are driven by a script that we decide on when we are young.This could be a winning script or a losing script.To change this script around takes a lot of delving in to one's emotions and identify the reason we decided on such a script and which part of the subconscious is still working on carrying out the
script to the end.I have a losing script mainly because i have identified a negative child as a strong part of my subconscious who craves for acceptance and approval and finds it hard to be wrong ,likes to prove a point he is right in the market.This is a part of my subconscious that i now accept and the power it has is slowly dissipating.By trying to fight it i was only strengthen it ,basically i was continuing a subconscious fight, in my case to be accepted by my father.

I have found out that to trade consistently in the market requires me to have a very balanced mindset,which consists of plenty of sleep,some form of daily exercise and meditation.I've been practising mindfulness for a couple of years and this seems to broaden my awareness of the conflict that can arise when i'm in the market,what it does is somehow slows the process of the conflict down,it gives me a more time to deal with the condition.So if i can maintain this everyday balance my trading is fine and i'm able to trade my method and my money management is good.If for some reason that this balance is disturbed lack of sleep or if i've indulged in some alcohol during the trading week then this strengthens the negative side of my mind and i then seem to struggle in the market and my discipline is weaker.
It has taken a long time for me to accept that if i want to trade well then i have to maintain this balance and stay away from the market if i feel this is weakened in anyway.
I'm also reading a book on the Sedona method which was earlier recommended in one of the threads by Salty Gibbon,so i must thank this person for that,it's an interesting concept i'm still working through the book at this moment so i can't really comment too much about it.

It has been a long tough road in trading and i've lost a lot of money in the process but i can honestly say that i don't regret any of it because i have gained a lot of self knowledge and on the whole i'm a much happier person than i was when i started trading.
It has been very interesting reading this thread.Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
All the Best
Llew

 

[TheBramble]

If I have overstepped any boundaries then I apologize.

No you haven't. t2w is an extremely accommodating forum. No need for apologies.

We're all doing the best we can.

 

[pkfryer]

firehorse
You have an interesting occupation and very fullfilling I bet! I wanted to be a therapist when I was younger and it is still something I probably will drift in to later. I've always been interested in how peoples minds work. I thought I knew about most therapies but I've never heard of emotional freedom technique! Is it something similar to Primal therapy... releasing the original pain of child birth (something like that). I get put off with lots of people shouting and screaming... rebirthing just looks embarrassing! I'm very cynical of a lot of stuff! I went and stayed at the Findhorn Foundation for a while.... new age, believed in fairies.. lots of 'being open' and everything. But it was all total rubbish in the end!

Emotional Freedom Technique sounds like lots of crying and sobbing and shouting and screaming to release the traumatised inner child so we can freely express ourselves once more. etc I've always been in touch with my emotions and have done much work to get in touch with repressed feelings of anger and fear. After a few years of acknowledging hatred of your father etc and expressing it in various methods... there isn't much left to express, and you end up feeling nothing but calm. I also cry when Im sad, laugh when Im happy, mope when Im depressed... feel it, experience it and it passes. I'd love to find out more of your technique.

llew
You sound like you are more aware than the average person.
I have seen trading as a journey of self-discovery too. Its a process and a therapy to me. It has brought up lots of things in regard to my attitude to life in general. Trading: winning... self esteem, acceptance, deserving, love, abundance, confidence, self-worth, gratefulness, discipline... There are no ends of avenues trading takes you down! To me now... the money isn't the most important thing, its the getting it right, its observing the sediment brought up from the bottom of my mind... The triggers that are pulled, the buttons pushed in my psyche... my self-image laid bare... my belief system exposed to my prying eye!

Guilt when you win for instance! We were taught that its wrong to take from others.... but we are told that when we win a trade, we take from poor losers! Its not just plucked from thin air.. this is some poor blokes hard earned cash! Have we done the equivalent of stealing from him?

Its interesting the thoughts that are revealed... not always logical, but fascinating when you become aware of them! The subconscious mind has such a wide selection of beliefs to choose from in which to sabotage us! But the strange thing in life.. we are always taking from others. That job we landed... didn't 100 people go for it besides us? didn't a billion sperm die for us to live at our conception? Can you be a sensitive compassionate person and be a trader? Is it possible? Or do you have to be a hard nosed ******* like a bull in a china shop... smash and bash your way through, just as long as you win, it doesn't matter about the mess thats left behind...

Anyway.... there is a lot to stew over! I think your ideas about mindfulness and meditation is very interesting. I practice meditation and try and stay in the moment as much as possible. And this helps with lots of things! The mental balance and self-awareness are important for our progress in many areas.

I have heard of the sedona method also but never tried it! I've heard its pretty good though... Here is a link to my favourite mind development/human potential online shop: www.lifetools.com
It is a brilliant shop and has the sedona cds and tape course. Also, information for the workshop I think!

Good Trading

 

[chump]

"self-esteem has everything to do with the trading and money! "..that's an interesting statement,but are you sure it is correct ?

would you define..money and wealth or the accumulation of money to be one and the same ?

do you think there is a universal explanation for why people attempt to accumulate money / wealth ?..looking at your statement one might be forgiven for thinking that you have identified "self esteem" to be an important factor


do you think "self esteem" is expressed by the endless search for 'more goodies' and the money to buy them ?

 

[firehorse]

I thought I knew about most therapies but I've never heard of emotional freedom technique! Is it something similar to Primal therapy... releasing the original pain of child birth (something like that). I get put off with lots of people shouting and screaming... rebirthing just looks embarrassing! I'm very cynical of a lot of stuff! I went and stayed at the Findhorn Foundation for a while.... new age, believed in fairies.. lots of 'being open' and everything. But it was all total rubbish in the end!

EFT is nothing like Primal therapy.

In fact there is one technique called the tearless trauma technique where you can get someone to resolve something that was traumatic in their lives any tears at all.

Lot of stuff are rubbish. Like I said, I gave EFT a good kicking before taking it up! It had to 'prove' to me that it worked and that it worked better than anything else I knew. It's been impressive.

Emotional Freedom Technique sounds like lots of crying and sobbing and shouting and screaming to release the traumatised inner child so we can freely express ourselves once more. etc

Tears not necessary unless you believe it is necessary for you to cry to heal ... on second thoughts, that belief can be resolved too :cheesy:

I'd love to find out more of your technique.

Here is where it all started www.emofree.com

I've always been in touch with my emotions and have done much work to get in touch with repressed feelings of anger and fear. After a few years of acknowledging hatred of your father etc and expressing it in various methods... there isn't much left to express, and you end up feeling nothing but calm.

Good work!

Guilt when you win for instance! We were taught that its wrong to take from others.... but we are told that when we win a trade, we take from poor losers! Its not just plucked from thin air.. this is some poor blokes hard earned cash! Have we done the equivalent of stealing from him?

No. He entered the contract willingly. If you won't teach the other person he made a mistake then he won't learn either! If the stock broker/Market Maker loses money then they shouldn't be in business. It's not your job to prop them up by losing your deals.

we are always taking from others. That job we landed... didn't 100 people go for it besides us?

How can you be taking it from others when the company makes the decision and not you. They just didn't come up to scratch in the interview. Your lesson to them to do better next time otherwise they just won't learn.

didn't a billion sperm die for us to live at our conception?

No, they were trying to get to the same place too. You just got there faster.

Can you be a sensitive compassionate person and be a trader? Is it possible?

Yes, but probably not both at the same time

Or do you have to be a hard nosed ******* like a bull in a china shop... smash and bash your way through, just as long as you win, it doesn't matter about the mess thats left behind...

What mess? You've just worked really hard teaching someone else that they are not suited to being a trader. Would that lesson be any easier from any one else?

"self-esteem has everything to do with the trading and money! "..that's an interesting statement,but are you sure it is correct ?

The whole quote in context is

The therapist I have gone to have ranged from hypnotists, hypnotherapists to psychosynthesis and NLP. (not for trading or money I should add.. but for low self esteem

My opinion (without taking a case history) would be that the self-esteem has everything to do with the trading and money!

I was contrasting PKs statement about what he has had treatment for but not money and trading, by saying what he had treatment for is related to money and trading in his case.

I did not mean that self-esteem has everything to do with trading and money for everyone else.

For someone else, low self-esteem may drive them to be a fantastic trader in the effort to get the money and perceived self-esteem. However, money is not the same as self-esteem, although the 'achievement' of getting money can contribute to self esteem.

In general, if you lose the money, then the person who equates money with self-esteem will lose self-esteem but the person who does not equate money with self-esteem will be able to go on and trade sucessfully because his self-esteem and belief in himself will not have been dented.

would you define..money and wealth or the accumulation of money to be one and the same ?

What would be your definition of wealth? Is there a difference between material or emotional wealth? Not 100% sure of the question you are asking.

do you think there is a universal explanation for why people attempt to accumulate money / wealth ?

To feel good

The reason why anybody does anything. There's got to be a payoff somewhere!

..looking at your statement one might be forgiven for thinking that you have identified "self esteem" to be an important factor

Only relevant in PKs case. I haven't got a clue about anyone else!

do you think "self esteem" is expressed by the endless search for 'more goodies' and the money to buy them ?

Insecurity is another great motivator.
--
Alan

 

[Drmarshallmathew]

as a novice/new trader, can we just find one trading system like turtle system to trade OR

we wait with patient for the clear chart pattern ( like divergence etc) to trade .

because some of the system require trader to stick in the market al the time no matter side way or trending market( like turtle system from Rusell Sand), but trade with chart pattern reqiure us to trade only once the pattern is clean and obviuos.

so , as a new trader i ready confuse which way is the proper for me to approach.

can somebody give me some idea ? thanks in advance.

 

[oohnearly]

Oohnearly

A thoroughly fascinating thread. I would recommend all newbies read it in full.

When it all goes horribly wrong and you can't see why most might say to themselves, but I'd do anything to get this right. Everything that is except look in the mirror?

 

[RUDEBOY]

I only read the original thread start......i could imagine the rest.

Firstly, the biggest mistake people make is to flatten price with percentage trades.

Breakeven is the best you will get!

If a person only ever believes everyone else, what are they supposed to expect?

I truly am lost for words, for what ever i say may sound unreal.

That is because 95% would not agree with myself.

Am i a great trader?

Certainly not.

Your the one who is losing money. This site tells all.......but you can't help yourself......can you?