Dispassionate
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What is greed exactly? Not looking for a dictionary definition here!
Define greed
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trendie
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Interesting and provocative question.
reminded me of communism !
"The followers of Marx and Lenin claimed to have a society based upon the premise "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs". "
Problem with that is that people will naturally try to attain the MOST by doing the LEAST.
( where a persons "needs" are greater than their "abilities". )
I would therefore define greed as someone who wants more than is rightly theirs.
That is, people who want things that are beyond what their natural talents would acquire.
( for example, unfit people dreaming of being gold-medal athletes;
under-educated people wanting to be promoted beyond their natural talents, and envious of theose better trained than themselves;
Traders desiring profitable outcomes greater than their ability to understand the nature of markets )
if you desire something beyond your abilities, you are greedy.( make a fortune in the stock-market with "just 5 minutes a day" etc )
Those you work hard to understand, and learn, and acquire understanding, will "earn" the right to be rich and successful.
You have asked a good question, and hope we can provide you with a wildly differing range of opinions to make you both glad and exasperated that you asked the question.
Good luck for next weeks trading.
reminded me of communism !
"The followers of Marx and Lenin claimed to have a society based upon the premise "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs". "
Problem with that is that people will naturally try to attain the MOST by doing the LEAST.
( where a persons "needs" are greater than their "abilities". )
I would therefore define greed as someone who wants more than is rightly theirs.
That is, people who want things that are beyond what their natural talents would acquire.
( for example, unfit people dreaming of being gold-medal athletes;
under-educated people wanting to be promoted beyond their natural talents, and envious of theose better trained than themselves;
Traders desiring profitable outcomes greater than their ability to understand the nature of markets )
if you desire something beyond your abilities, you are greedy.( make a fortune in the stock-market with "just 5 minutes a day" etc )
Those you work hard to understand, and learn, and acquire understanding, will "earn" the right to be rich and successful.
You have asked a good question, and hope we can provide you with a wildly differing range of opinions to make you both glad and exasperated that you asked the question.
Good luck for next weeks trading.
bluetipex
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trendie said:Interesting and provocative question.
reminded me of communism !
"The followers of Marx and Lenin claimed to have a society based upon the premise "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs". "
Problem with that is that people will naturally try to attain the MOST by doing the LEAST.
( where a persons "needs" are greater than their "abilities". )
I would therefore define greed as someone who wants more than is rightly theirs.
That is, people who want things that are beyond what their natural talents would acquire.
( for example, unfit people dreaming of being gold-medal athletes;
under-educated people wanting to be promoted beyond their natural talents, and envious of theose better trained than themselves;
Traders desiring profitable outcomes greater than their ability to understand the nature of markets )
if you desire something beyond your abilities, you are greedy.( make a fortune in the stock-market with "just 5 minutes a day" etc )
Those you work hard to understand, and learn, and acquire understanding, will "earn" the right to be rich and successful.
You have asked a good question, and hope we can provide you with a wildly differing range of opinions to make you both glad and exasperated that you asked the question.
Good luck for next weeks trading.
Trendie
Excellent post to which I agree 100%. However. It is fatally flawed as life doesn't work like that. There are those that choose 6 numbers at random and win the lottery that have not "earned" their winnings at all. I recall a convict out on parole recently that won and caused a national outrage. He neither earned nor deserved his rewards yet still achieved riches beyond the reach of most of us. There are many other examples of life "anomalies".
Many of us, unfortunately, will put in the required effort, study, blood, sweat and tears, and not reap our just rewards; whilst watching those that put in no effort whatsoever, (and sometimes resort to illegal means), and derive financial abundance.
It's called life.
How do you explain this?
erierambler
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Dispassionate said:
Regarding trading , greed may be described as an emotional impulse whereby one either :
A. commits too much of his/her capital or
B. overtrades...........
erie
roguetrader
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Hi Trendie, what exactly is someones "natural talent" When someone is able to for example play music by ear, we say they have a "natural talent" for it, does this mean that the musician who is not so talented, but has to work hard to achieve what he does is greedy and should not?
your concept of greed would rob the world of ambition, and aspiration. The fact that an individual is unfit at this minute in time has no bearing on whether or not he has the ability to win a gold, or any other other medal at some point in the future.
Who decide what your ability is?
Within the bounds of what is humanly achievable, there is little that one cannot accomplish with the proper drive and motivation.
Many of the worlds greatest accomplishments have been achieved against a backdrop of those who labelled either tha task impossible, or the individual incapable.
Now that I totally agree with, but it seems to me to go a long way to contradicting most of what came before it.
Maybe it is my interpretation of what you have said that is at fault. I just think one should be careful not to confuse ambition and aspiration with greed.
So what is greed, to me, the desire to have, or possess more than you need, purely for the satisfaction of having it.
fudgestain
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I like Gordon Gekko's version in Wall Street when speaking of greed which "..captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed in all its forms, greed for life, money, love, knowledge.."
But greed for success? It is not earned, really. In life you can enter into competition for its biggest rewards - power, money, status.. but must rely on your advantages and capabilities.
But greed for success? It is not earned, really. In life you can enter into competition for its biggest rewards - power, money, status.. but must rely on your advantages and capabilities.
Dispassionate
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Fabulous answer trendie!
Dispassionate
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bluetipex said:
Law of large numbers?
Greed is where the irrational defeats the rational ..or 3 deserts which you prefer.
In fact have a look at the Times today..home section ..article on Spanish property..very good example of what I stated above ..."what market demand & supply factors they cried" .. LOL ..I'll save you the trouble of waiting for a similar article on Bulgaria & Turkey ...read it here right now ...oversupply means what for price ?
In fact have a look at the Times today..home section ..article on Spanish property..very good example of what I stated above ..."what market demand & supply factors they cried" .. LOL ..I'll save you the trouble of waiting for a similar article on Bulgaria & Turkey ...read it here right now ...oversupply means what for price ?
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trendie
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hi roguetrader,
yes, youre right ( I did write my explanation off the cuff )
re: unfit athlete. I think I was referring to someone who wants something, but is unwilling to put the effort in. An unfit person "dreaming" of something, and an unfit person resolving to become fit and healthy, and aspiring ( making the effort ) are two different things.
Whereas the first is greedy, the second is not, as the second makes the effort to fulfil a ( talent ) potential.
( hey, it was a Saturday )
re: Lottery tickets. There will always be "black swan events". Mind you, these events are as unjust as people being "born" into wealth and privilege, or children being born into poor countries.
But the last bits are off-topic.
yes, youre right ( I did write my explanation off the cuff )
re: unfit athlete. I think I was referring to someone who wants something, but is unwilling to put the effort in. An unfit person "dreaming" of something, and an unfit person resolving to become fit and healthy, and aspiring ( making the effort ) are two different things.
Whereas the first is greedy, the second is not, as the second makes the effort to fulfil a ( talent ) potential.
( hey, it was a Saturday )
re: Lottery tickets. There will always be "black swan events". Mind you, these events are as unjust as people being "born" into wealth and privilege, or children being born into poor countries.
But the last bits are off-topic.
Dispassionate
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Trader333 said:
..and how do you judge the "more than you need" and especially the "deserve" bit??
Define greed
You went long the dow for a target of 50 points, The market is going you way, it is now 30 points, you say hay here we go, then 40 points, You get confident, and say to you self I move my stop to break even, You watch the market it ticks 42 43 44 45, now only 5 points to you target, markets goes 46 45 44 45 44 43 42 39 35 32, now you thinking um maybe I should have got out at around 40 to 45. market goes 28 25, although you T,A got you in to the market, you are now ignoring it to get out, markets goes 20 18 22 20 19, You say to you self well I just sit back and wait,either my stop get hit or my target. Well you guess what he got out at break-even, when he place the break even trade he thought he was smart, But he was not smart enough to get out at around 40 when is charts was telling him to.he ignored it. Holding on for the last buck. That's what you call greed.
You went long the dow for a target of 50 points, The market is going you way, it is now 30 points, you say hay here we go, then 40 points, You get confident, and say to you self I move my stop to break even, You watch the market it ticks 42 43 44 45, now only 5 points to you target, markets goes 46 45 44 45 44 43 42 39 35 32, now you thinking um maybe I should have got out at around 40 to 45. market goes 28 25, although you T,A got you in to the market, you are now ignoring it to get out, markets goes 20 18 22 20 19, You say to you self well I just sit back and wait,either my stop get hit or my target. Well you guess what he got out at break-even, when he place the break even trade he thought he was smart, But he was not smart enough to get out at around 40 when is charts was telling him to.he ignored it. Holding on for the last buck. That's what you call greed.
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Dispassionate
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Trader333 said:
Judge/decide/assess - what's the difference?
This is a good question!
Excellent points trendie!!!
I can't say that I disagree, but my interpretation is slightly different, however it also focuses in the same points. I think greed comes initially from a 'lack of' and from 'fear to get back there where I was unhappy'. I think greed has to be put in relation to the history of the personal experiences. I'll try to explain using my cat. I rescued her. She was starving. Now everytime there is signs of food around she goes mad, even if she ate 2 mins ago. I think she's anxious about not having food again, because she experienced both and she knows how bad is to be hungry, and after she learnt that life can offer more than that, this is, eating properly everyday, the relative unhappiness of going hungry is even worse. A stray cat is not greedy. It's not expecting to get better, and it's very happy with the little he finds. My cat, fat, contented, and with a full bowl of lovely food all the time is really greedy. With humans I think it works in a similar way, with subtleties, of course. I think your argument of aspiring to have more than you deserve is good, but I'd look at it from what you think about yourself, instead of an absolute scale. I'll try to be more clear: I don't believe in god, I don't believe that there is someone who is going to decide what you deserve and what you do not deserve. However I think that you can feel you don't deserve this because you are not that nice/good/hard-working/lucky person you'd like to be. For example, if you're very hard working and you can't get it right, you can start to think that the world is divided among lucky and unlucky people, and that hard work is the only thing you can do but it's not going to change your destiny. Then that wonderful thing happens to you, and you remember that you are in the unlucky side, but you don't want to be there anymore. And the brilliant thing is happening to you and you don't want to see the end of it, because inside yourself you believe that this is not going to happen again to you. You dream about how lovely is to be in the lucky side, and how miserable to be in the unlucky one. Your fear mixes with your success and you enter in a state of panic that it's only overcome by getting more of the nice cake. You're blind now because you don't want to see, and reality it's only too hard to accept. That's my opinion. And I think that if this is the case, the solution to the greed problem is to come to terms with the way you position yourself respect to the rest of the world, and come to terms with what your believes are.
Good trading!
Silvia.
trendie said:Interesting and provocative question.
reminded me of communism !
"The followers of Marx and Lenin claimed to have a society based upon the premise "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs". "
Problem with that is that people will naturally try to attain the MOST by doing the LEAST.
( where a persons "needs" are greater than their "abilities". )
I would therefore define greed as someone who wants more than is rightly theirs.
That is, people who want things that are beyond what their natural talents would acquire.
( for example, unfit people dreaming of being gold-medal athletes;
under-educated people wanting to be promoted beyond their natural talents, and envious of theose better trained than themselves;
Traders desiring profitable outcomes greater than their ability to understand the nature of markets )
if you desire something beyond your abilities, you are greedy.( make a fortune in the stock-market with "just 5 minutes a day" etc )
Those you work hard to understand, and learn, and acquire understanding, will "earn" the right to be rich and successful.
You have asked a good question, and hope we can provide you with a wildly differing range of opinions to make you both glad and exasperated that you asked the question.
Good luck for next weeks trading.
Excellent points trendie!!!
I can't say that I disagree, but my interpretation is slightly different, however it also focuses in the same points. I think greed comes initially from a 'lack of' and from 'fear to get back there where I was unhappy'. I think greed has to be put in relation to the history of the personal experiences. I'll try to explain using my cat. I rescued her. She was starving. Now everytime there is signs of food around she goes mad, even if she ate 2 mins ago. I think she's anxious about not having food again, because she experienced both and she knows how bad is to be hungry, and after she learnt that life can offer more than that, this is, eating properly everyday, the relative unhappiness of going hungry is even worse. A stray cat is not greedy. It's not expecting to get better, and it's very happy with the little he finds. My cat, fat, contented, and with a full bowl of lovely food all the time is really greedy. With humans I think it works in a similar way, with subtleties, of course. I think your argument of aspiring to have more than you deserve is good, but I'd look at it from what you think about yourself, instead of an absolute scale. I'll try to be more clear: I don't believe in god, I don't believe that there is someone who is going to decide what you deserve and what you do not deserve. However I think that you can feel you don't deserve this because you are not that nice/good/hard-working/lucky person you'd like to be. For example, if you're very hard working and you can't get it right, you can start to think that the world is divided among lucky and unlucky people, and that hard work is the only thing you can do but it's not going to change your destiny. Then that wonderful thing happens to you, and you remember that you are in the unlucky side, but you don't want to be there anymore. And the brilliant thing is happening to you and you don't want to see the end of it, because inside yourself you believe that this is not going to happen again to you. You dream about how lovely is to be in the lucky side, and how miserable to be in the unlucky one. Your fear mixes with your success and you enter in a state of panic that it's only overcome by getting more of the nice cake. You're blind now because you don't want to see, and reality it's only too hard to accept. That's my opinion. And I think that if this is the case, the solution to the greed problem is to come to terms with the way you position yourself respect to the rest of the world, and come to terms with what your believes are.
Good trading!
Silvia.
A great thread!
A point I would like to add is why is greed considered a bad thing? Greed in itself is a good thing i believe but has been distorted through religion and social views that were installed in our culture centuries past when times were bad and by making people feel comfotable with their lack of luxury or hopes of being in a position to be called greedy was a great way to appeal to them to and recruit people to whatever cause they were fighting for at the time. (this is a very broad view but to go into the history of societies views on certain things would take for ever and rake up some sensitive ground which i wouldnt like to do)
I believe greed is often misinterpretted and to many people it is wanting too much, but what is too much? This is relative to each individual, to a starving child in Africa eating 3 healthy meals a day is grosely exceeding what is available to people around him (would this person be greedy in the eyes of his community if he ate 3 meals a day?)
To better oneself is the most basic human instinct after reproduction, if it wasnt for our ancestors millions of years ago deciding shivering at night in the on the land they walked around was not the life for them and their living standards could be increased by adding shelter and warmth where would we be now?
I think greed is what drives people forward and contrary to what some people believe other people benefit from the greed of another person. Even the poorest people in the UK and US are some of the richest people in the world because we live in a society where people are allowed to attempt to succeed in things that will reward them in a way that will make them greedy in the eyes of some people. When a man sets out on a journey to become a billionaire they are doing this by creating a product or service that enhances other peoples lives, they create jobs, they pay millions in taxes etc etc. If we lived in a world where the mentality was to accept what we have and not try and achieve rewards which are more than what we need to survive at a basic level we would live in a very basic and poor world.
The only time greed can be considered a bad thing is when people create wealth without creating a product or service equal to that value. Bill Gates has more money a man could spend in a life time but he has also created software that has revolutionised most of the world, therefore he is rewarded with what his product is worth, this is fair and not greedy in my opinion.
On the other hand people that steal, lie and decieve are greedy because they are getting money by not creating something for society to benefit from. A man that sits at home and refuses to work because they can recieve more money from the government than they are likely to earn in the job market is therefore greedy because they recieve money without creating any value.
Tom
A point I would like to add is why is greed considered a bad thing? Greed in itself is a good thing i believe but has been distorted through religion and social views that were installed in our culture centuries past when times were bad and by making people feel comfotable with their lack of luxury or hopes of being in a position to be called greedy was a great way to appeal to them to and recruit people to whatever cause they were fighting for at the time. (this is a very broad view but to go into the history of societies views on certain things would take for ever and rake up some sensitive ground which i wouldnt like to do)
I believe greed is often misinterpretted and to many people it is wanting too much, but what is too much? This is relative to each individual, to a starving child in Africa eating 3 healthy meals a day is grosely exceeding what is available to people around him (would this person be greedy in the eyes of his community if he ate 3 meals a day?)
To better oneself is the most basic human instinct after reproduction, if it wasnt for our ancestors millions of years ago deciding shivering at night in the on the land they walked around was not the life for them and their living standards could be increased by adding shelter and warmth where would we be now?
I think greed is what drives people forward and contrary to what some people believe other people benefit from the greed of another person. Even the poorest people in the UK and US are some of the richest people in the world because we live in a society where people are allowed to attempt to succeed in things that will reward them in a way that will make them greedy in the eyes of some people. When a man sets out on a journey to become a billionaire they are doing this by creating a product or service that enhances other peoples lives, they create jobs, they pay millions in taxes etc etc. If we lived in a world where the mentality was to accept what we have and not try and achieve rewards which are more than what we need to survive at a basic level we would live in a very basic and poor world.
The only time greed can be considered a bad thing is when people create wealth without creating a product or service equal to that value. Bill Gates has more money a man could spend in a life time but he has also created software that has revolutionised most of the world, therefore he is rewarded with what his product is worth, this is fair and not greedy in my opinion.
On the other hand people that steal, lie and decieve are greedy because they are getting money by not creating something for society to benefit from. A man that sits at home and refuses to work because they can recieve more money from the government than they are likely to earn in the job market is therefore greedy because they recieve money without creating any value.
Tom
Tom,
I disagree, depends on how you see greed. To my view there is no connection between accumulating wealth and greed except the latter tends to negate the former. What you do with the wealth after you have got it is another argument.
Greed is where every nerve of experience in your body is trying to tell you the rational action is X and your emotions (greed) just won't have it and insist upon doing something that is not actually in your self interest. Weigh up the two alternative outcomes and in the long run greed costs you. Simple as that. Nothing good about it at all. In fact it's just plain stupid.
I disagree, depends on how you see greed. To my view there is no connection between accumulating wealth and greed except the latter tends to negate the former. What you do with the wealth after you have got it is another argument.
Greed is where every nerve of experience in your body is trying to tell you the rational action is X and your emotions (greed) just won't have it and insist upon doing something that is not actually in your self interest. Weigh up the two alternative outcomes and in the long run greed costs you. Simple as that. Nothing good about it at all. In fact it's just plain stupid.
