'Complete Guide to Spread Trading' by Keith Schap

RichieE

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Has anyone read 'Completele Guide to Spread Trading' by Keith Schap?

If so, what did you think of it? At the moment I'm trading calendars and I'm reading up on crack spreads, paper feedlot etc.

I can't find any reviews on this book and I'm struggling to think of what this book could tell me as I don't see where the complexity could be in a spread trade. Am I missing something here?

See Global-Investor Bookshop : Complete Guide to Spread Trading - by Keith Schap
 
Depends what you're looking for but I dont recommend this book, as its more about seasonal and cyclical spread trading rather than anything short term.
 
Complete Guide to Spread Trading

I can't find any reviews on this book. Complete Guide to Spread Trading - by Keith Schap
Complete Guide to Spread Trading by Keith Schap
ISBN: 0071448446

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The greatest American chess champion’s name is on a book on how to play chess. After explaining the game, he simply teaches you how to kill. Similarly Ross's Spreads & Seasonals teaches the game simply, and dives straight to the heart of how you can place your first winning seasonal spread trade.

Mr. Schaps textbook is much more complex. It is written for the already active trader, who may want to switch to or try new spreads. Advanced traders, practicing spread traders, mathematicians, and employees of hedge funds and financial firms, will find this book useful. As a result it covers everything, and updates the older spread books into this century. Mr. Schaps works for the CBOT. He does not see a conflict of interest is suggesting that traders rely on brokers for research, I do.

The author explains spreads from the left hemisphere of the brain. Anything that can simply be shown to both sides of the brain in a picture, graph or chart, is instead reduced to a complicated array of digital formulas and intricate equations.

"Spreads ... produce better results than outright trades in futures or stocks."

General principles as well as advanced ideas in the various ways to spread are taught. You do not have to read it straight through, but you can move to the areas that address your current interests. Besides futures, he goes on to cover Option spreads.

"Spreads trade around long term means ... they work back towards the mean."

Instead of using the normal spread charts, where all a trader has to seek is the spread differential to go up. Schaps takes it two levels deeper with exhibits of columns of numbers, formulas, and statistics. If you don't use arithmetic every day, run far, far away from this book and its complicated mathematical explanations of otherwise simple concepts.

"It is a good idea to focus on the spread as a whole, not on the individual legs of the spread."

In normal spread teaching, the long contract is stated first the short second. Schap because he is using rows of numbers, has to remind you what is widening and what is narrowing for each type of commodity. You buy the widening or sell the narrowing. Any mix up as to what widening means and you can find yourself on the opposite side of the spread.

"A valid spread must have a structure that ties it to the economic reality you are trying to capture."

While other writers may use simple charts showing the historical tendency. Schap examples show a much shorter period of only one or two years. Where Schap does use charts, he shows two lines instead of one. Usually he uses exhibits with columns of numbers, as an alternative to charts.

"Price has no history. Only spreads have history."

Spreads carry messages about how the market needs to draw supplies into and out of storage. "The price differentials of the spreads help the markets to regulate the flow of goods into and out of storage." A carry (contango) market (price plus storage), wants product to go into storage. An inverted (backwardation) market (penalizes storage), wants product moved out of storage.

Schaps dispenses with the confusing terms of inter and intra delivery, but uses terms like "cointegration," and "yield curve shift."

A "Normal yield curve shows a healthy economy, inverted curve, near yield higher than far yield shows slower growth. How it is changing widening or narrowing is the question. When it is widening suggests increasing demand for credit. When the yield curve is narrowing, suggests that the fed is cutting back on the amount of credit it is creating relative to the demand for credit."

Because spreads isolate the effect of change in the width of the yield curve spread. Yield spreads carry information in advance.

Unlike many spread books that may suggest vague trade dates, for spreads. Schaps has an overview and advanced concepts of spread groups for traders to refer to before making a spread trade in a new commodity. He takes you to deeper layers with the widening, & narrowing. Deeper still the effect it has on storage.

Many spread books have been criticized for using optimized trade dates. Schaps often uses unoptimized exchange expiration dates to exit many of his spreads examples.

Many books may have a chapter about spreads. Only a handful of books are about spread trading. Anyone who takes trading seriously would want to have access to all of the Spread Trading books in his personal library. One successful spread trade could buy the whole lot! In a case like that, Schaps book must be included. " The Complete Guide," is not for the beginner or uninitiated trader. As a preview to the experienced mathematician about to trade a new futures group "The Complete Guide to Spread Trading," by Keith Schap is indispensable.
 
Trade lengths

Short term
as its more about seasonal and cyclical spread trading rather than anything short term.
In theory a seasonal pattern should be about six months. Half a year up, half down. In actuality it is much more complex than that. Some things have two or more harvests/changes causing multiple supply and demand readjustments with in a year. These tradable adjustments are often less than “six to eight weeks.” Front loaded position sizing will liquidate these trades in a much shorter time span.

Long term
Stanley Kroll would hold positions, rolling them over for years before liquidation.
 
Depends what you're looking for but I dont recommend this book, as its more about seasonal and cyclical spread trading rather than anything short term.

Hi Arbitrageur,
i know this is a realy old post of yours, but it's very valid for me now. I've recently come across spread trading (i already have some knowledge on trading) and want to learn more.

I would be wanting something shorter term rather than entirely cyclical/position based spread trading. I was wondering if you (or anyone else for that matter) can recommend some quality learning resources for spread trading? I've looked and i can't find that much.

Anyone learnt from Joe Ross and making money from it? His book/training is on the dear side and i'm not yet convinced about their quality. Also what about Bob McGovern - Bob McGovern's Commodity Futures Spreads

Cheers Syn
 
Guru - Teachers

Hi Arbitrageur,
I know this is a really old post of yours, but it's very valid for me now.
You do understand the difference between Arbitration and Position trading?
I want something shorter term, rather than entirely cyclical/position based spread trading.
What about cyclical based entry, using short-term money management?

Joe Ross's system can easily be adapted to do that. Let me explain. You still have to do the same amount of work. There are no shortcuts there. You have to select a security and the proper time to enter. You have to be confident that you will stick with your order when you place it. All of that is the same. The difference is that you will have many more successful trades if you are only looking for a short term gain, about a 100% of margin, and don’t give them back waiting for the once or twice a year Jessie Livermore/ Stanley Kroll, big score.

What you do is enter seasonal trades with a technical bullish signal. Keep close stops. Two or three days later, put in a “target limit order,” less than a thousand dollars. When you choose your entries right, you will catch the first seasonal thrust, and get hit almost all of the time. This is an example of short term seasonal trading. It is not about when you get in, it is all about when you get out.
could you recommend some quality learning resources for spread trading?
Google “Seasonal spread traders library.”

Having traded before you must be aware that when prices move, they move in a giant M. In bull markets the second crest is higher. In short term trading off of a seasonal bottom, you are trying to catch the first crest’s peak with a limit order.
Anyone learnt from Joe Ross and making money from it?
Yes! Ross’s has the ONLY book that teaches trading using “close only charts.” You have to have this, you need to know what everyone else knows.
His book/training is on the dear side and I’m not yet convinced about their quality.
Make it back in one trade, Joe Ross - Joe Ross - Spread Scan Newsletter
Do you mean the broker?

Try: Moore’s Research - Jerry Toepke's Weekly Spread Commentary
 
Hi Gold
thanks very for your post and sorry for the delay in my reply.

You do understand the difference between Arbitration and Position trading? What about cyclical based entry, using short-term money management?

As i mentioned i have only very recently found the spreading trading approach to the markets. I do understand arbitrage. By cyclical based entry, i assume you mean trades based on observable cycles within the instruments you are trading, e.g. seasonal cycles. By ST money management, i assume you mean bracketing your position in the markets with mental (or actual depending upon how you have actually taken a position in the market) profit taking and stop loss orders. If my assumptions are right then, then i can confirm that this is exactly the kind of trading i am interested in!

Joe Ross's system can easily be adapted to do that. Let me explain. You still have to do the same amount of work. There are no shortcuts there. You have to select a security and the proper time to enter. You have to be confident that you will stick with your order when you place it. All of that is the same. The difference is that you will have many more successful trades if you are only looking for a short term gain, about a 100% of margin, and don’t give them back waiting for the once or twice a year Jessie Livermore/ Stanley Kroll, big score.

This is very encouraging to hear. When you say 100% margin what exactly do you mean, leverage?

What you do is enter seasonal trades with a technical bullish signal. Keep close stops. Two or three days later, put in a “target limit order,” less than a thousand dollars. When you choose your entries right, you will catch the first seasonal thrust, and get hit almost all of the time. This is an example of short term seasonal trading. It is not about when you get in, it is all about when you get out.

Sounds good. Consistency, limiting risk, increasing the odds in your favour and therefore your profitability is the way to make it in this business. I can say i very much agree with your last line!

Google “Seasonal spread traders library.”

Thanks for the pointer to your list. I assume i've got the right one - it's on US amazon site and has 4 books on it?

Having traded before you must be aware that when prices move, they move in a giant M. In bull markets the second crest is higher. In short term trading off of a seasonal bottom, you are trying to catch the first crest’s peak with a limit order.

I understand what you are saying, but it doesn't mean much to me in isolation. No doubt it will when i have read a little more on seasonals.

Yes! Ross’s has the ONLY book that teaches trading using “close only charts.” You have to have this, you need to know what everyone else knows.Make it back in one trade.

Again, that's great to hear. I’m surprised to hear that (and glad you told me) as even to a spread novice like me, it seems to make perfect logic to chart the actual spread you are trading! As you say as long as the book is useful, the price tag is neither here nor there (within reason!). I have also been looking at his remote learning courses with his colleague Andy, and the 3 day course with Ross himself. Have you even considered it?

Do you mean the broker?

No. Whenever i right this it changes the name of the hyperlink. So that you know exactly which site i mean i'll break up the address so that it cannot treat it as a hyperlink. I mean Bob McGovern on www. spreading .com .I don’t know if he’s a broker.

Try: Moore’s Research - Jerry Toepke's Weekly Spread Commentary[/b][/FONT][/SIZE][/color]

Thanks. I’ve already come across this and it looks a great resource. There’s plenty on here for the future when I have define exactly what spreads I’m going to be trading. Have you bought any of their reports/books or subscribed? If so how do you find it?
They what looks to be a very good book which I’m considering buying too.

Regards
Syn
 
Books, newsletters and forums

This is very encouraging to hear. When you say 100% margin what exactly do you mean?
Sort term you can seek a target that about doubles your margin on winning trades. Trading longer term say six to eight weeks we are trying for returns much in excess of merely doubling minimum margin requirements.
I can say I very much agree with your last line! ~
It is not about when you get in, it is all about when you get out.
Sure, if you get out right away you make more return per day. But when you capture a full season you make more gains overall.
US Amazon site and has 4 books on it?
Google shows two dozen spread related books on that list.
chart the actual spread you are trading!
Not only chart it, but run oscillators on the spread itself.
No doubt it will when I have read a little more on Seasonals.
Cycle theory in general, alpha / beta crests are clearly visible on seasonal charts.
I have also been looking at his remote learning courses with his colleague Andy, and the 3-day course with Ross himself.
Andy and Joe are the last teachers around. Learn what you can. The ultimate teach, is the market itself.

Brokers have a conflict of interest the Bob McGovern site that you sent me to, looks like a brokers site. Learn what you can and move on. Ross can tell you more about Bob and his fees and what brokers to use than I can. I would like to see Bob’s stuff but I cannot find it on eBay.

There are three decent web forums about spreads, study them all, continue to ask questions. But when it comes to newsletters. If you find one that holds trades as long as you’ll like, you can have success. But if you try two at once where they conflict you will fail. One is OK, two or more is trouble.
Have you bought any of their reports/books or subscribed?
You do not need books of historical spreads when you subscribe to the latest research.
If so how do you find it?
See my other scattered posts for details.
 
Sort term you can seek a target that about doubles your margin on winning trades. Trading longer term say six to eight weeks we are trying for returns much in excess of merely doubling minimum margin requirements.

It seems possible to get fantastic ROI on spread trades.

Google shows two dozen spread related books on that list. Not only chart it, but run oscillators on the spread itself.

Great. I’ll check again. Have you any strong recommends other than Joe Ross?

Cycle theory in general, alpha / beta crests are clearly visible on seasonal charts.

I know of alpha/beta, but not something I have used before. Something to learn perhaps.

I have also been looking at his remote learning courses with his colleague Andy, and the 3-day course with Ross himself.
Andy and Joe are the last teachers around. Learn what you can. The ultimate teach, is the market itself.

So have you had any training of theirs and it so how did you find it?

There are three decent web forums about spreads, study them all, continue to ask questions.

I take it you’re referring to this site, elitetrader and Joe Ross’s forum? I’ve seen some of your posts on these sites already. You’re quite a prolific poster (on spreads) and seem to be one of the few who specialise in spreads.

You do not need books of historical spreads when you subscribe to the latest research.
Am I right in guessing you subscribe to mrci.com then? Can you confirm their quality and relevance?

Syn
 
By the way, have you ever considered using a spread betting company to take your position in the market rather than actually entering the outright futures markets the underlying? If so which company have you used?
Syn
 
Not having much joy finding "Seasonal spread traders library" on google. How exactly are you googling it? I've spent a considerable amount of time looking for spreading books and i've found quite a few but not 2 dozen and so i'd really like to know what's on he list you can find. Don't suppose you could post a link could you please GT?
Syn
 
Not having much joy finding "Seasonal spread traders library" on google. How exactly are you googling it? I've spent a considerable amount of time looking for spreading books and i've found quite a few but not 2 dozen and so i'd really like to know what's on he list you can find. Don't suppose you could post a link could you please GT?
Syn

GOLD TRADER ignore this, i've found your list!
 
by the way, have you ever considered using a spread betting company to take your position in the market rather than actually entering the outright futures markets the underlying? If so which company have you used?
Syn
No..
 
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Ross

I know of alpha/beta, but not something I have used before.
It is something that you see like Elliot wave.
So have you had any training of theirs and it so how did you find it?
I study under Jerry.
I take it you’re referring to this site, elite trader and Joe Ross’s forum?
Yes.
Am I right in guessing you subscribe to mrci.com then?
No not MRCI. That was not the link that I gave you. Jerry’s WSC letter is a stand-alone resource.
Can you confirm their quality and relevance?
Will have to see how my next trade turns out.
 

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It is something that you see like Elliot wave.

Right. I intend to do a lot of learning on spreadtrading and then choose the markets and develop an approach that suits me.

I study under Jerry.

I'd be really interested to hear more about that. But i understand this might not be the forum for that sort of discussion.

Yes.No not MRCI. That was not the link that I gave you. Jerry’s WSC letter is a stand-alone resource.
Sorry some confusion there! I'll check out the link again.
 
Rom

I thought that is what you meant.
Return (on investment). Return on margin would be another way of saying it.
Speculation should not be confused with Investment.

When you make a trade leaving T-bills on account with your clearinghouse for example. The trade is pretty much is on your word. No funds are taken out of your account to pay for anything. No investment of any kind has been made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_(finance)#Return_on_margin said:
Return on margin (ROM) is often used to judge performance because it represents the net gain or net loss compared to the exchange's perceived risk as reflected in required margin. ROM may be calculated (realized return) / (initial margin).
Nothing is invested, so there can be no return on investment. In Commodities it is only your word that is really committed, not your assets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment said:
Roi or rate of profit or sometimes just return, is the ratio of money gained or lost (realized or unrealized) on an investment relative to the amount of money invested.
 
I know the difference, but was just sloppy in teminiology in my original post (using ROI). Sorry for any confusion.
 
GT i've been ready many of your posts with interest.
If you don't mind me asking, for the strategies you use, what is the approximate shortest timeframe you are usually in and out of a trade? As you know i'm new to spreads, and wondered what short of timeframes are involved in successful spread stratgies that people use.
 
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