Can you be long and short at same time?

dealer911

Well-known member
436 24
you used to able to lock in a low risk profit using the hedge facility a few years ago using the following strategy..

Lets say we had data due out and it was going to move the market in a big way in one direction or the other -
You take a long position and immediately hedge it (ok you pay the spread but that's OK).. you could attach guaranteed stop losses as close as you were allowed to both positions .. - number comes out and the market jumps 50 points higher.. your short is stopped out for say 20 points.. but your 50 points higher on your long! ker ching... sadly I cant find a spread betting company where that is possible anymore ! bstards closed my account but was a fair cop I guess!

That was the only use of that feature that I ever figured out.. try explaining the hedge feature to any trader outside the UK and they'll look at you like your insane!
 

Atilla

Legendary member
18,915 2,645
Hi guys,

Hate to start it all over again but came across this article based on LV's link and it reminded me of this thread.

FYI -

q: you are known as a order book-scalper, could you please explaining to our readers what you are doing and what your strategies look like? what is your tactic?
a: it's some kind of market making where you place buy and sell orders simultaneously, making very short-term trading decisions b/c of certain events in the order book (level2). for example, I usually have lots of orders in different markets at the same time, pretty close to the last traded price. the resulting trades are usually a zero sum game, but I get a pretty good feeling for what is going on and then ultimately can make a decision for a larger trade.


http://www.trading-naked.com/paul_rotter.htm


Enjoy :cool:
 

Shakone

Senior member
2,458 665
Hi guys,

Hate to start it all over again but came across this article based on LV's link and it reminded me of this thread.

FYI -

q: you are known as a order book-scalper, could you please explaining to our readers what you are doing and what your strategies look like? what is your tactic?
a: it's some kind of market making where you place buy and sell orders simultaneously, making very short-term trading decisions b/c of certain events in the order book (level2). for example, I usually have lots of orders in different markets at the same time, pretty close to the last traded price. the resulting trades are usually a zero sum game, but I get a pretty good feeling for what is going on and then ultimately can make a decision for a larger trade.


http://www.trading-naked.com/paul_rotter.htm


Enjoy :cool:
You evil man to start this again :LOL:

Placing orders simultaneously long and short isn't the same as having an open trade long and short at the same time.
 
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Atilla

Legendary member
18,915 2,645
You evil man to start this again :LOL:

Placing orders simultaneously long and short isn't the same as having an open trade long and short at the same time.
Hmm yes food for thought. Been discussing it and most say this guy should be banned.

I'm thinking it is more on the market manipulation side too and should be stamped out even if the system does lend it self to this kind of practice.
 

Shakone

Senior member
2,458 665
Hmm yes food for thought. Been discussing it and most say this guy should be banned.

I'm thinking it is more on the market manipulation side too and should be stamped out even if the system does lend it self to this kind of practice.
Didn't see a great deal of manipulation in the article, just tricking some order book traders into losing positions. Nothing wrong with that, imo.
 

random12345

Established member
793 279
Didn't see a great deal of manipulation in the article, just tricking some order book traders into losing positions. Nothing wrong with that, imo.
Agreed, manually 'spoofing' would take a great deal of skill and you are asking for trouble if you get it at all wrong. Plus there are limitations as to how realistically you could spoof in this way. Rotter wasn't flooding prices with large numbers of orders into an area he wanted to execute against.

An HFT can create what looks literally identical to strong demand and that's why algo spoofing is illegal.
 
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Liquid validity

Senior member
2,422 692
Hi guys,

Hate to start it all over again but came across this article based on LV's link and it reminded me of this thread.

FYI -

q: you are known as a order book-scalper, could you please explaining to our readers what you are doing and what your strategies look like? what is your tactic?
a: it's some kind of market making where you place buy and sell orders simultaneously, making very short-term trading decisions b/c of certain events in the order book (level2). for example, I usually have lots of orders in different markets at the same time, pretty close to the last traded price. the resulting trades are usually a zero sum game, but I get a pretty good feeling for what is going on and then ultimately can make a decision for a larger trade.


http://www.trading-naked.com/paul_rotter.htm


Enjoy :cool:
See the red highlight.
He wasn't long and short at the same time.
http://www.trading-naked.com/library/paul-rotter-trader-monthly.pdf

I can't copy paste an extract from that PDF as the text formatting is busted.
Screen shot below instead.

He was using limit orders - not market orders.
He did not have open positions long and short at the same time.
Although he may have done that with a long market on schatz and a
simultaneous short on bobl as an example, I don't know.
Point is he was never long and short in the same market with open trades.
He was basically pulling the p1sser of DOM traders.
 

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counter_violent

Legendary member
9,592 2,433
See the red highlight.
He wasn't long and short at the same time.
http://www.trading-naked.com/library/paul-rotter-trader-monthly.pdf

I can't copy paste an extract from that PDF as the text formatting is busted.
Screen shot below instead.

He was using limit orders - not market orders.
He did not have open positions long and short at the same time.
Although he may have done that with a long market on schatz and a
simultaneous short on bobl as an example, I don't know.
Point is he was never long and short in the same market with open trades.
He was basically pulling the p1sser of DOM traders.
genius
 

Atilla

Legendary member
18,915 2,645
Intent to mislead (manipulate) market.

Genius in spotting a flaw in the system.

Pump and dump.

Fact that the system facilitates this kind of manipulation is a flaw imho. :rolleyes:

Fact he spotted and made a million - dare I say well done. :cheesy:
 
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counter_violent

Legendary member
9,592 2,433
Intent to mislead (manipulate) market.

Genius in spotting a flaw in the system.

Pump and dump.

Fact that the system facilitates this kind of manipulation is a flaw imho. :rolleyes:

Fact he spotted and made a million - dare I say well done. :cheesy:
It's got sod all to do with spotting flaws in systems as such.
Rotter was clearly playing and in control of his own game...he didn't dance to anyone else's tune...they all danced to his. Like all people who are top of their game.

Never let it be said I don't tell you everything. :LOL:
 
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tar

Legendary member
10,441 1,309
It's got sod all to do with spotting flaws in systems as such.
Rotter was clearly playing and in control of his own game...he didn't dance to anyone else's tune...they all danced to his. Like all people who are top of their game.

Never let it be said I don't tell you everything. :LOL:
Dont get me wrong hes a well known pro but algos win in this game i dont think he made that much money year in year out , its a bit tight and crowded ....
 

Liquid validity

Senior member
2,422 692
Dont get me wrong hes a well known pro but algos win in this game i dont think he made that much money year in year out , its a bit tight and crowded ....
I don't think he's doing the manual EUREX stuff anymore.
As you say its all algos now, growing since 07, RSJ and STIRs for instance.

He did all that in early / mid part of last decade.
Looks like he's gone the algo route himself now:
http://www.rotterinvest.com/
 

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