World destabilising to alarming degree

[charliechan]

has anyone read god in the pits by mark ritchie?

his idea regarding the resurrection is as follows:

if it was all a big hoax, and Jesus was not resurrected, why did the disciples go through torture when the jews got hold of them demanding to know where the body was? surely if it was just an attempt to create some following, make some cash, or other dodgy deal, they would have fessed up and said ' the bodys in the river' or 'ok ok its all a big hoax, balh blah blah....' the fact ritchie says is, is that because there was a resurrection and the body did indeed return to heaven, there was no remaining evidence they could have shown in order to avoid the torture. this ritchie claims is proven fact (that they were tortured) - although i am not sure where the facts are from.

quite an interesting book if theology interests you.

 

[charliechan]

Really sad, when you consider the entire human race as a whole can be traced back to the Great Rift Valley in East Africa. (excluding those made from dust, and spare ribs)
(or has this been discredited?)

I always thought was one of the most poetic things I knew.

( second only to finding out that all the atoms and molecules in our planets and bodies were created in a supernova. made astronomy more magical. )

i do not hold any opinion either way on that one.

i was reading in the telegraph a while back about some big wig anthropologist who claims there is no actual hard proof that we did evolve from chimps (except for president bush of course). yes we have evidence that takes the human race back quite some time and we can see that the human today has certainly evolved from our first proven origins (fossils?), but the complete pathway from animal to modern man is still only theory and has no proven fact.

so there is no hard proof of adam & eve, or the modern day theory of evolution as far back as some would like to assume. we simply do not know.

am i starting to sound like some bible bashing red-neck here? hope not

 

[roguetrader]

So your points are spot on based on the time that they were written but for the Christian time has moved on and with it things have since changed.

Christianity may have moved on, but the bible didn't. New Testiment.
John 5:28. "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29. "and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

 

[Directional]

but jews come from the same blood line as arabs. this is a fact. some jews do try and differentiate themselves from this fact which some can not bear by claiming their blood line (from abraham) is separate and so they are a separate race. this is like someoes grandfather claiming to be of a different race from their great grandfather after developing a separate religion imo.

This is bang on the nail - Mohammed was a descendant of Ishmael, who was son of Abraham by Sarah's slave girl Hagar, according to both the bible and the koran.

So both Jews and Arabs (ishmaelites) are descendants of Abraham - same race.

But we're all the same race if we're all descendants of Noah, taking it back to the next gene pool bottleneck in history :cheesy:

 

[TheBramble]

But we're all the same race if we're all descendants of Noah, taking it back to the next gene pool bottleneck in history :cheesy:

You, Trendie and CharlieChan are all spot on. Which makes it all more of a mystery.

But the Arab/Jew bifurcation occurred about 3500 years ago. Enough time since to establish quite distinct tribal identities - and perhaps even more reason for the very acute hatred they appear to have for each other generally.

The one possible saving grace is that with the relatively recent globalisation of mankind (most can choose where to live and who to marry) there is a potential for a genuine melting pot - over time. A lot of time. If WE last that long...

Problem is that consanguinity has been a de facto cultural norm in the middle east for over 100 generations. More than 60% of Saudis marry their first or second cousin.

This doesn't help guys...You all need to get out and about more. But preferably not on my flight....

 

[roguetrader]

But we're all the same race if we're all descendants of Noah, taking it back to the next gene pool bottleneck in history

You don't have to go back that far since we are also descendants of Abraham and Sara. The Arabs were however born of, as you say Abraham and Hagar (Sara's servant). So talk of race is inaccurate as the product of Abraham and Hagar would have been mixed race since he was an Israelite and she an Egyptian. Of course again as you say, go back far enough and there must be one race.
The upshot of that if you wanted to nit pick at the level Charliechan slected, Abraham, then the Israelis are closer to the British and Americans et al than the Arabs, since they can both trace back to a common mother and father Abraham and Sara, whereas the Arabs can only trace back to the common father, Abraham.

 

[TWI]

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/008992.php

 

[roguetrader]

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/008992.php

" Our guns and our money and ideas are no match for their history and their hate."
From that article, what surprises me about the whole situation, is how nobody knew that beforehand, it takes very little time living in that region to understand that.

 

[jmreeve]

There have been equally brutal atrocities going on in Afghanistan for years and also in a whole load of other conflicts, e.g. Bosnia, Rwanda, Chile, Argentina e.t.c e.t.c e.t.c.........

Whilst they are shocking they are not new and generally have minimal impact on a global scale.

 

[chump]

What I have learned is this...you can either concentrate on resolving the problem that exists right now ,or you can concentrate on establishing the relative truth and rightness out of which people think a particular problem arose. In the latter case you have no chance of resolving the problem that exists today ,because you will not let go of the past. There were signs that Israel & Palestine were moving away from that until chumpo in Iran arrived on the scene.
Is chumpo right in his beliefs. Why should we care one way or the other when we have no chance of talking to him rationally about his beliefs , or ours with a view to understanding each other and allowing each other our differences...differences....uncertainty this is just too uncomfortable for many people including chumpo...they search out groups to wrap around themselves like comfort blankets..but implicitly when you join a group their beliefs become yours and are defended as same..you see this all over , football supporters , political parties , national flag waving ..even on these boards albeit the handbags are rarely life threatening. Often this polarisation of views that arise from group behaviour can be harmelss ,but of course religion tends to take this issue to extremes not seen in many other examples. Removing the influence of religion would I am sure remove some of those extremes ,but certainly not all of them.
Fighting fire with fire..I think you have to take each case on it's merits...many times information and education can play a part in resolving 'differences' ,but clearly in other cases it just will not work.. I think chumpo in Iran and headcase in N Korea fall into that category. Consequently, the argument should really be how do we remove them from the argument so the rest of us can get on resolving our differences in a way which leaves each of us still alive.

 

[trendie]

chumpo and headcase are sabre-rattling.

chumpush and chumplair are the ones that have gone beyond talking.

We dont seem to get as many new religions as in the past.
I wonder if thats because anyone caught hearing voices gets prescribed lithium?
Are the new messiahs all locked up in institutions.

Now, which direction is Broadmoor, its my time to pray.

 

[YachtFund]

Someone has already said that things haven't changed, its always been this way. Maybe we strive for something that is not, and as long as humans are involved, ever possible.

An interesting article on the role of the press:-

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13492.htm

If the press did its job infinitely better, and the worlds population had the facts, perhaps we could challenge our governments more.

That would be a step in the right direction.

 

[fxmarkets]

Ding Dong

What I have learned is this...you can either concentrate on resolving the problem that exists right now ,or you can concentrate on establishing the relative truth and rightness out of which people think a particular problem arose. In the latter case you have no chance of resolving the problem that exists today ,because you will not let go of the past.

excellent chump cheers hits a note with me on that one.

Fx.

 

[charliechan]

Someone has already said that things haven't changed, its always been this way. Maybe we strive for something that is not, and as long as humans are involved, ever possible.

An interesting article on the role of the press:-

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13492.htm

If the press did its job infinitely better, and the worlds population had the facts, perhaps we could challenge our governments more.

That would be a step in the right direction.

quite - but thats very wishful thinking.

newspapers main aim is to sell newspapers - not to report the truth.


chump - quite right - changing peoples opinion is perhaps the most difficult thing to do.

just like people voted for bliar again as they deemed lower mortgage repayments more important than iraqi kids right to life - policy is made on what people want, not what is right.

 

[chump]

Charlie,
It's about knowing not when you can change an opinion so much as when you can get someone to understand that a different opinion holds no threat for them ..if you can do that then the differences in opinion/belief become of little importance..with some people you simply cannot do this and especially not when they have subsumed their ability to think in favour of a group comfort blanket.. In which case , if they are intending to rattle considerably more than a
sabre (trendie) then you have to look for alternative options...the two B's in my view were right to look for alternative options ,it's just unfortunate the options they went with were not particularly efficient ..

 

[laptop1]

Pessimism seems to have reign agin. The market drop of the last five weeks has investors running for cover. But does anything in the real world justify the gloom and doom? If there is unemployment, the doomsayers, say it's bad for the stock market. Then when unemployment goes down, the doom and gloom folks claim it is bad for the stock market because wage increases may be necessary to entice new workers, thus producing higher wage costs and lower profits.

Then when profits go up, they suddenly become “obscene” and that also means something awful is happening lol So, despite the gloom and doom, the stock market is the place to be for most investors. Over the long run, it remains the easiest and safest way to earn a decent return on your investment.in my opinion China will keep the USA markets from crashing, yes I can see it going 9000 again, but If anything the USA market will go sideways for some years to come, while China booms, I have position myself in China for the next 5 years. remember there will be always be doom writers, that's how they make their money, yes they get it correct from time to time, but this is the natural cycle of markets, the only market I see pulling back is, house prices, wait till all the buy to let investors start to panic. Buy to let is very similar to the late 90s .com boom.... its the new craze

 

[Directional]

any thoughts on the Isreali incursions into southern Lebanon to look for the two kidnapped soldiers? So far it has cost them eight Irseali soldiers lives, and at least a humvee and a tank to landmines without any real gains, and hardly a hezbollah casualty in sight.

The kidnapped soldiers arent even dead or likely to die while they have political bartering value, and yet the Isrelai action has now cost Isreal more than was at risk in the frist place...

In terms of risk management, should they have cut their losses right from the start? or is this a "trade" that is going to get much worse

 

[wasp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDu07yuCy_g&search=blackadder

wars a horrid thing...

 

[TWI]

It is in the Isreali interest to provoke a wider conflict in the middle east to achieve their aim of regime change in Syria and Iran. It works something along the lines of;
find a media friendly excuse to put troops on the ground and make air strikes to cause the maximum amount of frustration and hope to encourage other Arabs nations to sponsor a defensive.
At the point they do, you can accuse those nations of aggressive acts of war against Israel and so send in the big bombs with impunity. This is certainly not about a couple of soldiers, it is about Israel protecting their future in the region and making it very clear to the Arab World that they will respond to any threat with extreme aggression. Where this leads is hard to imagine but I would not rule out the first use of pre-emptive nuclear capability at some point. It is OK because before that happens the media corporatism will de-sensitise us and so make it far more palatable to the masses.

 

[Mayfly]

Blackadder was a great series.

Here's something that caught my eye from today's Times:
Ice-cool under terror attack

Mayfly