why SpreadBet??? its not professional

[SOCRATES]

Nicely put Socrates, you are about as much use as a politician . Given specific and real cases to comment on you give wishy washy criptic answers that are no help at all. What you get off on in all this heavens knows.
If you want to put off off potential traders and shroud everything in mystery you are doing a fine job!

Regards

Pringle

Yes, but only according to your frame of reference, which is to try to get information that you percieve, selfishly and according to your frame of reference again to be of value to you.

You don't have to thank me for my posture with regard to giving advice, you have to thank yourselves in general terms, as all of you have taught me the bitter lesson it is not wise or prudent or even worthwhile to be generous with one's hard earned knowledge anymore.

Sorry, go and bark another tree, you may have more luck.

 

[SOCRATES]

And whist I am in the swing of insulting our legendary and senior members I would like to thank charliechan for his obvious climbdown on my proof that spreadbetting firms do not just make money from losing clients and his acceptance that SB firms make money even when their clients are winning., hard as this must have been to take.
His apologies are accepted.

My previous reply to you above in my previous post in reply to you is further reinforced by the comment in your opening sentence above.

 

[Splitlink]

I think the usefulness of this thread finished many pages ago, but I find it curious that several posters follow one other poster's comments with such admiration when, in fact, all that is written is just a load of rubbish.

Fortunately , it is written in violet so that I, at least, am able to scan over it with little delay.

One comment, however, is repeated over and over again in the quote.

"There is a very fine line dividing sense from nonsense.The great majority are unaware of its existence, or, choose to ignore it."

Split

 

[fxmarkets]

hmmm i think the word Professional is causing the rub, if we take it as expert,great skill etc, professional behaviour, then that will lead to a person finding the best route. If we take it as someone paid to do something then most professional traders go bust anyway no matter even if they have wholesale spreads.

Can you be an expert spreadbetter ? well yes.
can you be a failing professional trader? well yes.

hmmm. professional....... is it the definition of this word causing the stir in this thread. people holding different beliefs about professional and what not.

 

[SOCRATES]

I think the usefulness of this thread finished many pages ago, but I find it curious that several posters follow one other poster's comments with such admiration when, in fact, all that is written is just a load of rubbish.

Fortunately , it is written in violet so that I, at least, am able to scan over it with little delay.

One comment, however, is repeated over and over again in the quote.

"There is a very fine line dividing sense from nonsense.The great majority are unaware of its existence, or, choose to ignore it."

Split

If you consider all of it to be a load of rubbish, no one is press ganging you to read it.

But you read it, like a lot of others out of self interest.

And when what you read does not conform with your idealised notion of what is ought to be, well, then, you offer us these comments of yours in comparison to mine, which, if they serve to cause you distress and upset your belief structures is the best I can do, instead of resorting to what you would like to be told rather than what you are entitled to, deserve, and ultimately need tp be told, to your benefit, and to my satisfaction.

 

[Splitlink]

hmmm i think the word Professional is causing the rub, if we take it as expert,great skill etc, professional behaviour, then that will lead to a person finding the best route. If we take it as someone paid to do something then most professional traders go bust anyway no matter even if they have wholesale spreads.

Can you be an expert spreadbetter ? well yes.
can you be a failing professional trader? well yes.

hmmm. professional....... is it the definition of this word causing the stir in this thread. people holding different beliefs about professional and what not.

Without doubt. No matter if we are professionals or not, we take what we do seriously and the word "professional" is a benchmark on which we base our ability to do so. If we are accused of unprofessional behaviour it is an indication that we have gone down in the accuser's estimation, which can be painful to our sense of pride.

I believe that the original poster chose the title of his thread with that in mind. The fact that so many of us have risen to his bait is a lesson to us. We must never be tempted to do something simply because someone, perhaps a salesman, suggests that it is the "professional" thing to do.

Split

 

[SOCRATES]

hmmm i think the word Professional is causing the rub, if we take it as expert,great skill etc, professional behaviour, then that will lead to a person finding the best route. If we take it as someone paid to do something then most professional traders go bust anyway no matter even if they have wholesale spreads.

Can you be an expert spreadbetter ? well yes.
can you be a failing professional trader? well yes.

hmmm. professional....... is it the definition of this word causing the stir in this thread. people holding different beliefs about professional and what not.

I am surprised that no one has noticed, with respect, what must be either a typo or an inadvertent blunder.

As spreadbetting is an added complication on top of a derivative on top of an underlying cash market surely what you mean is the opposite to what you have posted, otherwise your statements do not make sense.

To be an expert spreadbetter you have to be a successful trader first, and not the other way round, I respectfully submit, otherwise the excercise is no more consistent than pure chance on the basis of what has already been discussed in this thread and elsewhere on this site.

 

[charliechan]

Hello Charlie, is it not cruelly ironic that the people who are least properly equipped are the first ones to blunder forth, like the lemmings ?

The concept of an edge is not understood on these boards. It is believed to be the consequence of mastering some mechanical truth hidden in the charts, or other nonsenses.

I am not going to progress any further in that direction.

I will only venture to say again I wholly agree with you.

What appears not to be universally understood here is that in order to afford the luxury of sacrificing part of an edge as a component of a superior strategy in order to achieve some objective that may offer a benefit, the remaining edge must be substantial, so that the sacrifice does not significantly affect the advantage and the capability overall.

In consequence of this disadvantage, that is, by virtue of not posessing a real edge, the great majority seek comfort. This comfort is not to be had in the direction in which the universal bias of interest is tilted. The great irony is that the true holders of really substantial edges do not bother to SB.

It would be impossible to agree with you more than I do!!

Very well said.

but like i think you once said....better not let cats out of bags!

Perhaps it is better leave people to believe that an edge is no more than an equation discovered one weekend crunching data. After all, they are safe in that world as there is no real challenge, and the path is obstacle free and easy going. It may not be safe for their pocket book however, and that is fine with both you, i, and unfortunately them!!

 

[charliechan]

Charlie, don't try to make us feel bad!

90% of traders lose, as you say, but across the whole spectrum of trading, especially in the direct dealing arcades. I can't see where modest traders in SB companies are going to lose their shirts, providing they take the trouble to try to correct where they have gone wrong. Letting them loose with their parents' inheritance with one of the others can be quite a different matter.

Relax and let the rest sleep in peace at night. Why are you so interested in weening folk away from SB's, anyway? Are you trying to make us see the light? Well, I have been with IB and had the sense to know that I had left the woods and had entered a jungle- not that IB are bad people- far from it- but I was out of my depth. Fortunately, while I was losing money daytrading, my portfolio was getting it back for me.

Split

lol - point taken!! Maybe Im just frustrated and maddened by my own incomprehension of peoples refusal to act in their own self interests!!

 

[SOCRATES]

It would be impossible to agree with you more than I do!!

Very well said.

but like i think you once said....better not let cats out of bags!

Perhaps it is better leave people to believe that an edge is no more than an equation discovered one weekend crunching data. After all, they are safe in that world as there is no real challenge, and the path is obstacle free and easy going. It may not be safe for their pocket book however, and that is fine with both you, i, and unfortunately them!!

Yes, Charlie, I absolutely concur.....best to remain quiet and not let the pussycats out.
Very wise as usual.

Kind Regards.

 

[charliechan]

Would those that trade via Direct Access Brokers kindly state what the spread is on Euro/Dollar and the FTSE 100. Are there any other transaction costs ie. commission involved or is that it?

CMC charge their spread betting clients 3 pips for the Euro/Dollar and 2 points on the FTSE 100 index no other fees or commission are added to these spreads.

A simple comparison of charges relative to potential rewards should settle the argument/debate once and for all.

Spread on eurofx (euro/usd) is typically 1 tick ($12.50)

I dont trade FTSE, but would have though it would also typically be 1 tick (£10)

commission inc fees for a typical retail trader will be between $3-$5 (~£1.5 - £2.50)

Hope that helps.

 

[fxmarkets]

hmm yes, with my last post, now what if the expert spreadbetter obviously to get to that point is a good trader, more professional than all corporate traders who bust out. If they choose to contunue with spreadbetting at the level of whatever it is for them and take it to the level they limit for themselves and they are aware of all the choices or blissfully ignorant of unseen possibilities then thats ok , its their choice, act of free will. Their life experience. they limit their ambitions and dispense with their desires, as they are content, truly fulfilled.
Yet they know they can choose otherwise if they choose to.

 

[charliechan]

And whist I am in the swing of insulting our legendary and senior members I would like to thank charliechan for his obvious climbdown on my proof that spreadbetting firms do not just make money from losing clients and his acceptance that SB firms make money even when their clients are winning., hard as this must have been to take.
His apologies are accepted.

lol - your delusion is hilarious!!

yet again, your biased opinion and wishful thinking has got the better of you and you have come to an incorrect conclusion.

this sound like the type of perception /personality trait that holds on to losing positions while the bias insists you keep holding because its going to come back!!

remember - uncommitted assessments of probabilities.

good luck!!

 

[SOCRATES]

hmm yes, with my last post, now what if the expert spreadbetter obviously to get to that point is a good trader, more professional than all corporate traders who bust out. If they choose to contunue with spreadbetting at the level of whatever it is for them and take it to the level they limit for themselves and they are aware of all the choices or blissfully ignorant of unseen possibilities then thats ok , its their choice, act of free will. Their life experience. they limit their ambitions and dispense with their desires, as they are content, truly fulfilled.
Yet they know they can choose otherwise if they choose to.

Yes. that's better. To get to be an expert spreadbetter he has to get to be not just a good trader, but a very good trader, because of what I explained to you.

Then if he wants to retire and go and live in the countryside or whatever then he can choose.

 

[LION63]

CharlieChan,

Thank you for the information provided but I dealt with it in post 98.

Dear Socrates,

I cannot understand why you would let yourself get detracted from the main topic being discussed, why would you want to waste your time going over non issues? Even a twit knows that an individual who spread bets successfully has to be a good trader first and it is this ability that he/she uses to make money spread betting.

Anyone who refuses to acknowledge this is just being ignorant of the facts or spoiling for an argument.

 

[bulldozer]

Would those that trade via Direct Access Brokers kindly state what the spread is on Euro/Dollar and the FTSE 100. Are there any other transaction costs ie. commission involved or is that it?

CMC charge their spread betting clients 3 pips for the Euro/Dollar and 2 points on the FTSE 100 index no other fees or commission are added to these spreads.

A simple comparison of charges relative to potential rewards should settle the argument/debate once and for all.

==============================================================

Lion, friends,

I can get pips free on ftse and dow . Wiv a UK broker.

Getting the right broker wiv right rules on marg is paramount!!

Bull
for more info contact below:

[email protected]



Bull

 

[tzewaic]

CharlieChan,

Thank you for the information provided but I dealt with it in post 98.

Dear Socrates,

I cannot understand why you would let yourself get detracted from the main topic being discussed, why would you want to waste your time going over non issues? Even a twit knows that an individual who spread bets successfully has to be a good trader first and it is this ability that he/she uses to make money spread betting.

Anyone who refuses to acknowledge this is just being ignorant of the facts or spoiling for an argument.

Lion63

I totally agree with you. I think I am speaking for just about everyone here that its taken literally over 100 odd posts to get to the point of the topic of this thread of the differences of SB and DA, And this is due to mostly Socrates sarcastic and non informative gibberish on some higher plane that they claim to be.

Socrates and CharlieChan , it has become very obvious to users of these threads / forums that you are here to merely waste people's time. There are many users of these forums who are trying to share or learn knowledge. Should you not wish to participate in these discussions or have no value to add then please do not waste other people's time and your own. I so far yet to see valueable contribution to these threads from yourself apart from disillusional claims of being higher beings than the rest of us mere mortals.

There are alot of people trying to learn from these threads / forums and there are people who are willing to share their knowledge and show the ropes as to say. If you have nothing of value to add please withhold your comments and snidey remarks to yourself. Factual information is what people are here for.

 

[bullcar]

If I trade "professionally" with a direct approach, and I mean TRADE, to be a ful market participant, making markets as well as taking views, then I need MY EDGE.
With spread betting, unless you are the market maker, you are effectively betting against the casino.
It is hard to make money as a trader.
And I am only making matters harder if I go the spread bet route.
I would rather pay 40% tax on £1m, than no tax on nothing!!!

 

[Jack o'Clubs]

If I trade "professionally" with a direct approach, and I mean TRADE, to be a ful market participant, making markets as well as taking views, then I need MY EDGE.
With spread betting, unless you are the market maker, you are effectively betting against the casino.
It is hard to make money as a trader.
And I am only making matters harder if I go the spread bet route.
I would rather pay 40% tax on £1m, than no tax on nothing!!!

It obviously depends on your trading style. If you're very active, scalping small gains here and there then spreadbetting obviously won't work well and the 'rather pay 40% tax on £1m than no tax on nothing' line is valid.

In other cases (mine for example), where one is position trading for longer periods, then spreadbetting is a viable alternative because you're looking at making fewer, but larger, gains. So the scenario in my case would be the choice between paying 40% tax on £1m or 0% tax on £850k (I wish!). I know which I'd prefer.

Your quote does say trading 'professionally', and I know what you mean by that. On the other hand am I any less serious because I take fewer, longer term positions, if at the end of the day this is the sole source of my family's income?

 

[pboi]

http://www.financial-spread-betting.com/Futures-betting.html

for those who have enough capital up front, this company appears to be the most competitive with their spreads.