uk tax laws on forex

Guide to UK tax evasion from a master criminal:

1: Head on down to your local council estate - find a local loser in the local boozer
2: Stike up a report over a couple of pints and a game of pool
3: Ask him to open a bank account on your behalf - offer to pay him £500 for the privilage - make sure he gives you the cash card and relevent passwords.
4: Set up a Forex account in Mr Local Loser's name - note - he knows nothing about the account and has no kind of accsess to it.
5: When you want to access money from your trading account transfere it into Mr Local Losers account a few £k at a time and head down to the local cash point.

N.B. Possible health risks as follows:

A: Mr Local Loser gets busted for tax evasion (he is probably on benefits after all) and gives you up to the boys in blue.
b: Mr Local Loser gets wise to the game and makes of with a few £k of your profits!

Nice thought though....
 
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Hi Steve

HMRC may be interested in spreadbetting (they would say that wouldn't they !) but they can't do Jack unless you're foolish enough to give it the Big 'Un and describe yourself as a professional trader.

Spreadbetting = gambling = no tax liability.

Do you think HMRC is giving tax rebates to the (often quoted) 90% of spreadbetters that lose ? I think not somehow.

Hope you all win massively ! good luck to all

:)

PokerPlayer - Sorry, I probably didnt get across the point which I was trying to make in that last post of mine...

What I was trying to imply (based on what the tax office indicated) is a situation where HMRC decide what you are classed as. You imply that it up to the individual what they call themselves (ie gambler / professional trader / retired / paper boy etc etc) but I'm simply questioning that aspect of the arguement. Picture a situation where an individual pays tax year after year because they do a job - what do you think HMRC do when suddenly that individual stops paying tax? Do they sit in their offices and do nothing or do they make enquiries as to why an apparently 'normal' tax payer is no longer paying any tax?


Black Swan - I agree with your points re HMRC being "the enemy" etc. However I like to sleep at night! If you earn (win) a good earning via betting then surely you need to know if you can spend it all of if perhaps you need to keep some back just in case. I remember well the gains that I made during the dot com boom and I also remember paying shed loads of Capital Gains Tax!! In the years after the dot com boom I was asked by a fair few people why I actually bothered to declare those gains (the implication being that most people would not have bothered). My view was that I wanted to sleep at night in the knowledge that the IR couldn't coming knocking on the door one morning asking for a huge sum of cash (which I may or may not have already spent). I hope you can see my angle here?


Cheers,
Steve.
 
I have direct experience of this as I trade via spreadbetting and have my own business also totally to do with trading. My trading business is taxed but my spreadbetting isn't. It has been scrutinised by the HMRC aswell. The flaw that they don't like is if you have a system or not and that is impossible to answer as they found out. I stated that i didnt have a system and my trading was based on chance. This is the key word they dont like as it represents luck and therefore gambling. If they could prove I have a system then its a different matter. My trading business which is a trading membership site is taxed as there is membership fees and you cannot get out of that one. But if i was only trading and successful as i am then they can reqest year on year success winning. If this is consistent then they will turn the screw if i didnt have another source of income which was taxed.. Dont know if this helps but I tried
 
Chaps

All the scenarios and explanations are valid and well put, and it's easy to imagine HMRC getting interested if you suddenly stop filling in tax returns and sign on the dole lol....
(although HMRC can't make you go to work, see Glasgow, Bolton, Sheffield etc)

I'm new on this forum so I'll bow to your collective experience, but does anyone have proof that HMRC have EVER taxed anyone (with Amateur status) for profits on spreadbetting ?

And by amateur, I mean someone that may (or may not) be trading fulltime and doesn't call themself any variation on the word "trader", i.e. essentially a money making (or losing) hobby.

Interesting topic, and very relevant.

regards
 
Chapter and Verse from HMRC website

Exempt assets - when you don't pay Capital Gains Tax
Some assets aren't liable to Capital Gains Tax at all because they’re exempt. These include:
• your car
• personal possessions worth up to £6,000 each, such as jewellery, paintings or antiques
• stocks and shares you hold in tax-free investment savings accounts, such as ISAs and PEPs
• UK government or ‘gilt-edged’ securities eg National Savings Certificates, Premium Bonds and loan stock issued by the Treasury
• betting, lottery or pools winnings
• personal injury compensation
• any foreign currency held for your own or your family’s personal use outside the UK (eg if you've made a gain because of a change to the exchange rate)
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cgt/intro/when-to-pay.htm

BIM22015 - Trade: exceptions & alternatives: betting and gambling: introduction
The basic position is that betting and gambling, as such, do not constitute trading. Rowlatt J said in Graham v Green [1925] 9TC309:
“A bet is merely an irrational agreement that one person should pay another person on the happening of an event.”
This decision has stood the test of time. In an Australian case, Evans v FCT [1989] 20ATR922, 89ATC4540 Hill J said:
“There has been no decision of a court in Australia nor, so far as I am aware, in the United Kingdom where it has been held that a mere punter was carrying on a business.”
However, an organised activity to make profits out of the gambling public will normally amount to trading.

Although over time new forms of games of chance have evolved, these principles remain the same. The taxpayer placing a spread bet is not normally carrying on a trade (see BIM22020 for exceptions). They are not taxable on the profits, nor do they receive relief for their losses. The bookmaker organising the spread bet is taxable on their profits.

The section on betting and gambling contains the following further guidance:
• what is a bet - BIM22016,
• the professional gambler - BIM22017,
• organised activity - BIM22018,
• element of existing trade - BIM22019,
• spread betting - BIM22020.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM22015.htm

BIM22017 - Trade: exceptions & alternatives: betting and gambling: the professional gambler
The fact that a taxpayer has a system by which they place their bets, or that they are sufficiently successful to earn a living by gambling does not make their activities a trade.

The case of Graham v Green [1925] 9TC309 concerned a man whose sole means of livelihood came from betting on horses at starting prices. Rowlatt J says at pages 313 and 314:
“Now we come to betting, pure and simple… the man who bets with the bookmaker, and that is this case. These are mere bets. Each time he puts on his money, at whatever may be the starting price. I do not think he could be said to organise his effort in the same way as a bookmaker organises his. I do not think the subject matter from his point of view is susceptible of it. In effect all he is doing is just what a man does who is a skilful player at cards, who plays every day. He plays to- day and he plays to-morrow and he plays the next day and he is skilful on each of the three days, more skilful on the whole than the people with whom he plays, and he wins. But I do not think that you can find, in his case, any conception arising in which his individual operations can be said to be merged in the way that particular operations are merged in the conception of a trade. I think all you can say of that man ... is that he is addicted to betting. It is extremely difficult to express, but it seems to me that people would say he is addicted to betting, and could not say that his vocation is betting. The subject is involved in great difficulty of language, which I think represents great difficulty of thought. There is no tax on a habit. I do not think "habitual'' or even "systematic'' fully describes what is essential in the phrase "`trade, adventure, profession or vocation''.’
This shows that having expertise or being systematic (‘studying form’) is not enough to create a trade of being a ‘professional gambler’.

Some ‘professional gamblers’ do carry on a trade, for example, where they receive appearance money for appearing on television programmes. They are providing a service to a customer (the television production company) for reward. Whether their gambling winnings are proceeds of that trade would depend upon the facts.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM22017.htm


BIM22020 - Trade: exceptions & alternatives: betting and gambling: spread betting
The principles of Down v Compston [1937] 21TC60 and Burdge v Pyne [1968] 45TC320 (see BIM22019) apply equally here. To be taxable, the spread betting wins must come not merely from an opportunity presented by a trade, they must arise from the carrying on of that trade. Whether or not a particular spread bet is taxable will depend on the terms of the contract and the economic substance of what is done.

For more on this see CFM13214.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM22020.htm

regards
 
Hi guys,

I'm just a newb, who's been live for a couple of months (having used a dummy account for about a year).

Anyway, about CGT and spreadbetting:

I'm "trading" at the mo', and am resident in the UK, but I have a Swiss account (just a normal account; I used to work there).

For the purposes of tax avoidance (not evasion, of course), would it be advisable to associate this account with my forex account and stash the cash en Suisse? I'm aware that Osborne is soon to have a chat with the Swiss authorities with a view to imposing a withholding tax, which will be aligned to CGT in customers' native countries. At this point, is it worth going Swiss?

Secondly, my trading style is based more on candlestick setups than long-term fundamentals. I'm usually in and out within a couple of hours, at most. At the moment, I'm focused on consistency and a few (albeit quite leveraged) pips per day, and my job allows me to screenwatch fairly frequently.

I'm a spreadbetting virgin, but does anybody know whether spreadbetting suits this approach? Can anyone recommend a good spreadbetting dummy account?

I'm a newb, so please be patient if these are daft questions.

Thanks,

H
 
What you are describing is tax evasion, unless you are a Resident Non-Domiciled Taxpayer. If you've only been living in the UK a few month you're probably Resident Non-Domiciled. I think you need specialist tax advice

Hi guys,

I'm just a newb, who's been live for a couple of months (having used a dummy account for about a year).

Anyway, about CGT and spreadbetting:

I'm "trading" at the mo', and am resident in the UK, but I have a Swiss account (just a normal account; I used to work there).

For the purposes of tax avoidance (not evasion, of course), would it be advisable to associate this account with my forex account and stash the cash en Suisse? I'm aware that Osborne is soon to have a chat with the Swiss authorities with a view to imposing a withholding tax, which will be aligned to CGT in customers' native countries. At this point, is it worth going Swiss?

Secondly, my trading style is based more on candlestick setups than long-term fundamentals. I'm usually in and out within a couple of hours, at most. At the moment, I'm focused on consistency and a few (albeit quite leveraged) pips per day, and my job allows me to screenwatch fairly frequently.

I'm a spreadbetting virgin, but does anybody know whether spreadbetting suits this approach? Can anyone recommend a good spreadbetting dummy account?

I'm a newb, so please be patient if these are daft questions.

Thanks,

H
 
Hello :) This is an interesting read and I understand the points made, but I am still confused as to the difference between 'spread betting' and plain ol' 'trading forex', sounds like they are the same thing but there's legal, and therefore tax, distinction between the two?

I have a 'plain ol' forex' account so am interested, but according to the above HMRC definitions surely any forex trading is betting..

Thanks if anyone can help make this clearer :)
 
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Hello :) This is an interesting read and I understand the points made, but I am still confused as to the difference between 'spread betting' and plain ol' 'trading forex', sounds like they are the same thing but there's legal, and therefore tax, distinction between the two?

I have a 'plain ol' forex' account so am interested, but according to the above HMRC definitions surely any forex trading is betting..

Thanks if anyone can help make this clearer :)

Standard fx = pay tax
Spreadbetting = tax free as long as it isn't your sole income
 
Hi, ta for the reply forker - I like your avatar :D

Apart from 'account classification' then I guess there's no difference... The law is an ass..

I shall look into getting a SB account too.

Thank you & Happy trading
 
Sorry to be a dog with a bone here but still reading up on this and not getting any clearer...

I understand the points made and the HMRC guides, as far as if you trade forex full time with no other form of employment you have to class yourself as self employed and declare your income etc... with this in mind I take it you can also offset your losses?

And if you 'spread bet' on the side / not your main job, its tax free because its treated as a form of gambling, but going through any forex broker (a glorified bookmaker) is gambling...

So the actual difference between spread betting and trading forex is like what exactly, apart from legalese?

Surely in trading forex you are trading spreads and betting on the results...

I guess I will speak to my accountant but just wondered if anyone had looked into the legal definitions of 'spread betting' Vs. 'trading'... sounds pretty grey to me :)
 
From another forum:

"I've had this out with HMRC last year. FX income used to be a grey area several years ago, but no longer. FX trading is NOT classed as gambling (although spread-betting is), nor is it classed as capital gains. They treat it as normal income, which you will need to self-certify in addition to your normal wages and any other income you make in a given year (if applicable). If the profit you refer to is locked in (ie the profit does not relate to open positions & all made in the current tax year) you are liable to pay tax on it, whether you withdraw the money or not."

"Everyone seems to get a different answer to this question, even from the IR. I am a member of a trading room and the organiser assures me that in the Uk gains made on Forex are classed as Capital gains tax. I have checked this out and got it verified today by the Inland Revenue. I spoke to a guy on the phone who was pretty clued in to it. He puts it like this. If you do this full time for a living you are not an employee, neither are you self-employed. You are in effect a speculator(not a gambler). You are speculating on changes of currency rates. You have no employees, customers etc. This therefore makes you liable for capital gains tax.

There is an exemption on £10100 before tax is due. So if you put £10000 into a broker you would be allowed to withdraw your initial investment plus the exemption amount before tax would be due. In this case then you would only have to pay tax on profit over £20100. The rate of tax would be 18%. This is a fixed figure for any amount from £1 - £1000000. You would fill in a tax return form at the end of the tax year detailing amount invested originally, total profit,total loss and final balance. You would not need to provide every single winning/losing trade information. You would also be liable to upkeep your National Insurance, assuming you were not working full time. I believe that would be at self employed rates but not too sure on that"

"Further to my previous posts I have got more clarification on whether you are liable to pay capital gains tax whilst any profit is still in brokers account. The answer to this is YES. You are liable for capital gains tax on profits still in the brokers account and not withdrawn subject of course to the exemption of £10100 plus the amount you initially invested. This is worked out on a yearly basis. You need to fill in a tax form at end of tax year(5thApril) declaring how much invested, total losses, total profits, year end balance."

Am now struggling to believe that you have to pay tax on your profits if they haven't left your broker account, surely if you haven't withdrawn / paid yourself any money the funds are still 'invested'...
 
The rate of tax would be 18%. This is a fixed figure for any amount from £1 - £1000000.

I believe it is only 18% now if your income+capital gains is less than £37,400, otherwise it goes up to 28%
 
My accountant wants me to provide a list of all the trades I executed last year. He is convinced the HMRC will want to see exactly how I made my profits, and aren't interested in what or whether I withdrew money from my broker account.
 
My accountant wants me to provide a list of all the trades I executed last year. He is convinced the HMRC will want to see exactly how I made my profits, and aren't interested in what or whether I withdrew money from my broker account.

I find that astounding... but I must be being naive!

I'd of thought that HMRC would be interested only in what goes through your actual account.. you can't use money from your broker unless you withdraw it, and while its in there it is volatile funds...
 
I find that astounding... but I must be being naive!

I'd of thought that HMRC would be interested only in what goes through your actual account.. you can't use money from your broker unless you withdraw it, and while its in there it is volatile funds...

Nope... so far as HMRCs are concerned, a profit / loss is realised the moment that you close a position. It doesnt matter where you keep the profits. Some people think that if you keep profits in offshore accounts then it some way exempts you but it doesnt.

Given how tight spreads are spreadbetting it make sense to switch.



Steve.
 
Great, all clear now... many thanks to all for sharing your knowledge, much appreciated!

Happy trading :)

Your joking right? Its not clear at all.

If I buy a unit trust, I buy units in a fund. The manager of the fund uses my money to trade stuff (shares, bonds etc) and holds some cash. If I was the manager of the fund and owned units in it - would I be subject to income tax every time I move an instrument into cash?

As far as I am concerned, if I have a forex account and I do not withdraw money, and I use a compounding, percentage based money management - with my trade size growing with my wins and shrinking with my losses - then this is analogous to investing in a fund.

I would like to see HMRC argue against that in court. especially as no money is being regularly withdrawn.

Forex trading is subject to CGT unless you regularly withdraw the profit.
 
Hi and thanks for the reply, I was joking yes... its about as clear as mud.

I am a newb at this game and only just starting to make profit so maybe I'm jumping the gun in thinking about all this, but thought to come here to ask experienced traders advice :)

What you are saying makes more sense to me... also the difference between 'spread betting' and trading a margin spread on forex is surely legalese and I would like to see that argued in court too (not at my hearing though, preferably someone else haha).

All the best and have a nice weekend all.
 
Your joking right? Its not clear at all.

If I buy a unit trust, I buy units in a fund. The manager of the fund uses my money to trade stuff (shares, bonds etc) and holds some cash. If I was the manager of the fund and owned units in it - would I be subject to income tax every time I move an instrument into cash?

As far as I am concerned, if I have a forex account and I do not withdraw money, and I use a compounding, percentage based money management - with my trade size growing with my wins and shrinking with my losses - then this is analogous to investing in a fund.

I would like to see HMRC argue against that in court. especially as no money is being regularly withdrawn.

Forex trading is subject to CGT unless you regularly withdraw the profit.

The difference between a private trader and a unit trust is that unit trusts are exempt from CGT but pay a flat rate of income tax at 20%. The other big restriction is that Unit Trusts cannot borrow money so could never open a leveraged position and thus trading forex is a non starter for them.

The same rules apply to both though as regards to whether a disposal is an investment and subject to CGT or whether it is a trade and subject to income tax. If you have short holding positions (days or hours) and are a high frequency trader (a few every week) then your disposals will likely be part of a trade and subject to income tax not CGT. There are several other conditions that HMRC look at in deciding whether a disposal is subject to CGT or is conducted as part of a trade, but I can assure you apart from not employing sales staff or advertising the goods for sale, the rest of them pretty much nail Forex trading as being classed as a self employed trade.

As self employed trading income you will also be liable to Class 2 and Class 4 NIC which are £2.50 per week and 9% of profits between £7,225 and £42,475 and 2% of all profits above £42,475, in addition to income tax at the normal rates. You will not have to declare all of your trades on your tax return but you will have to declare the total P/L for your accounting period. The other nasty surprise will be that you will effectively pay 150% of the tax due the first time you declare profits as 100% will be the tax due and 50% will a a payment on account (due on the 31st January in the year after the tax year in which you made your profits has ended) with a further 50% payment on account due on 31st July of the same year.

I have had many dealings with HMRC and I would never trust what one person has told me on the phone. I have asked the same question 3 times to 3 different people on the same day and got 3 different answers. You will not be provided with a reference number or the name of the person you spoke to HMRC and their opinion is not legally binding. Your only hope would be to get it in writing from them but good luck with that!

If you really want to find out from the HMRC, then submit a tax return classing all of the profits as being subject to CGT, but to do so you will have to submit your calculations for each gain and loss which means detailing every single trade. Your continuation sheet is likely to be several pages long and all tax returns get the quick once over for obvious errors so this may or may not generate an enquiry. To open an enquiry HMRC have 12 months from the submission of your tax return to start one, although the time is unlimited if they think you have been negligent or fraudulent. Just because it wouldn't get flagged one year though, it doesn't mean it's ok so you would be waiting to see if they ever opened an enquiry. If they did they could backdate it, and if they thought you owed them unpaid tax then they can impose penalties, surcharges and interest would could bump up the underpaid tax you owe them by as much as 50%. At the moment HMRC are understaffed and are taking forever to even acknowledge post, so they might not have the resources to pick up on it, however, they are being extremely ruthless with any unpaid taxes so if they did pick it up then watch out.

This all refers to trading Forex through CFDs with a Forex broker, so if possible I would try to use a spread betting account because as long as it is not your only income 'casual gambling profits' are exempt from both CGT and income tax. As a rule of thumb you would need another source of taxable income that could cover at least your basic outgoings such as rent/mortgage, bills, food etc even if the taxable income was considerably less than your trading income. A good way to achieve this is to pay your mortgage and debts off asap from trading profits and thus reduce the amount of money you need from a taxable source.
 
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