Trump Presidency and the Consequences

[timsk]

I absolutely wish to address the elephant in the room! By his actions in refusing to accept a legitimate result (legitimate being what judge after judge has confirmed) it is Trump who is doing his best to destroy democracy.

Oh Dear Jon!
That's a very disappointing reply which in no way addresses the points raised. The elephant in the room remains ignored.

Of course, if you are going to persist in the ludicrous claim that the judges are not the pillars of the law and amongst the most respected people in the country,

That's not what I said!

together with the equally ludicrous claim about their houses being burnt down (which, incidentally, says more about what you would expect from the thuggish approach of Trump’s followers than anything ) then there’s no hope for you, so I’d best leave you to dream your fantasy. Ta, ta.

The thing is Jon that it's antifa and their ilk who murder people merely for wearing a MAGA hat. If you genuinely think that the judges lives wouldn't be made intolerable and that they wouldn't receive death threats if they found in favour of Trump - then I'm afraid you're not up to speed as to what's really going on. You will recall that at the time of the election, shops and business premises were boarded up in many towns and cities acvoss the country. Was that necessary; has there been violence, vandalism and looting post election? Precious little is the answer and the reason is because Biden won. The shops were boarded up in the event that Trump won, so I'm afraid your assessment of where the disorder is - or would likely come from - and who it'd be meeted out to is completely ar$e about face.

Now, PLEASE answer the question in my last post: what possible reason is there for Biden and the democrats not to investigate Trump's allegations and prove that he's a lying toerag? I'm not going to let you off the hook Jon - you simply have to answer this and address the key point: it's not about Trump - it's about the preservation of democracy.
Tim.

 

[barjon]

Oh Dear Jon!
That's a very disappointing reply which in no way addresses the points raised. The elephant in the room remains ignored.

That's not what I said!

The thing is Jon that it's antifa and their ilk who murder people merely for wearing a MAGA hat. If you genuinely think that the judges lives wouldn't be made intolerable and that they wouldn't receive death threats if they found in favour of Trump - then I'm afraid you're not up to speed as to what's really going on. You will recall that at the time of the election, shops and business premises were boarded up in many towns and cities acvoss the country. Was that necessary; has there been violence, vandalism and looting post election? Precious little is the answer and the reason is because Biden won. The shops were boarded up in the event that Trump won, so I'm afraid your assessment of where the disorder is - or would likely come from - and who it'd be meeted out to is completely ar$e about face.

Now, PLEASE answer the question in my last post: what possible reason is there for Biden and the democrats not to investigate Trump's allegations and prove that he's a lying toerag? I'm not going to let you off the hook Jon - you simply have to answer this and address the key point: it's not about Trump - it's about the preservation of democracy.
Tim.

In answer to your please - BECAUSE THE COURTS ARE DOING SO . And so far they have concluded that he is a lying toe-rag.

So far as the judges are concerned you said it by implication since you say they would be swayed by threats of violence. A somewhat fanciful claim given how they have stood up to such things in the past. What evidence do you have that such threats as you describe have been made to them?

Finally, it is about the preservation of democracy ,although we clearly part company about who is threatening it. If you really believe that refusing to accept the result, claiming all sorts of unproven skullduggery, refusing to accept the judgement of supreme courts in respect of those allegations etc etc is furthering the cause of democracy then it beats me.

As I said much earlier, when you can show me reports from the responsible officials that there has been widespread fraud and when you can show me court judgements that say the same thing I will eat humble pie. Until then I class your position as up there with the “Americans never landed on the moon” and Elvis still lives brigades - ie: tripe.

 

[counter_violent]

Gordon Bennett. Is this what's coming !

Remember Cynthia from the Georgia Legislature Hearings.

 

[cantagril]

Gordon Bennett. Is this what's coming !

Yep. Looks like a re-run of Ronald Reagan but with more laughs and less desire to push THAT button. Trump may well be a deranged psychopath but at least he doesn't have Alzheimer's...though if he did that well explain some of his own pronouncements. All in all, I can't quite make up my mind who to more afraid of between the two....but in the UK we have Boris who is in a class (read: padded cell) of his own which at least lends some certainty to the situation.

 

[timsk]

As I said much earlier, when you can show me reports from the responsible officials that there has been widespread fraud and when you can show me court judgements that say the same thing I will eat humble pie. Until then I class your position as up there with the “Americans never landed on the moon” and Elvis still lives brigades - ie: tripe.

Jon,
I'm sorry you feel it's acceptable to hide behind court judgements and not rely on what you see and read with your own eyes. Do your own research is a long established mantra of this forum which I apply to pretty much everything else - and certainly to the U.S. election. If you want to put this argument to bed, watch some of the videos posted to this thread and tell me in your own words that you see nothing that looks in the least bit suspicious or leads you to think that the election was run improperly in any way. Otherwise, I'll have no option but to put you in Alan's camp as someone who believes that getting rid of Trump is more important than preserving democracy. And that's a fair enough point of view - as crazy though I think it is.
Tim.

 

[barjon]

Jon,
I'm sorry you feel it's acceptable to hide behind court judgements and not rely on what you see and read with your own eyes. Do your own research is a long established mantra of this forum which I apply to pretty much everything else - and certainly to the U.S. election. If you want to put this argument to bed, watch some of the videos posted to this thread and tell me in your own words that you see nothing that looks in the least bit suspicious or leads you to think that the election was run improperly in any way. Otherwise, I'll have no option but to put you in Alan's camp as someone who believes that getting rid of Trump is more important than preserving democracy. And that's a fair enough point of view - as crazy though I think it is.
Tim.

Well, Tim, if one cannot rely on the rule of law and the custodians of that cherished concept which underpins democracy then we are indeed in a sorry state. I shall not bother with the videos, the courts will tell me if they have validity and, so far, they have not found any.

So far as finding the truth is concerned the courts trump Trump.

 

[timsk]

So far as finding the truth is concerned the courts trump Trump.

Jon,
The sub text I'm reading is that you know full well there's loads of evidence that clearly shows wrong doing and you don't want to watch the videos because you'll then be put in the awkward position of wondering how to square what you see/hear with the court's conclusions. It's much easier to pass responsibility on to others that support your view than it is to do your own research and have it challenged when you uncover an uncomfortable truth. Sadly, most people think and act as you do, which is why I'm fearful of what could happen next.

You accuse Trump of undermining democracy - but that's not possible if he's using legitimate legal processes to achieve his aims. Democracy really is undermined when those with power and authority turn a blind eye to wrong doing they know has taken place. That's what's happened here, such that circa 47% of all americans - of which 30% of those are democrats - think the election was rigged. Democracy is up poo creek in a barbed wire boat if tens of millions of people think it's failed them at the highest level - electing their president. That you either don't understand this or think it doesn't matter is something I find deeply troubling as it's completely at odds with the man I believe you to be.
Tim.

 

[barjon]

Jon,
The sub text I'm reading is that you know full well there's loads of evidence that clearly shows wrong doing and you don't want to watch the videos because you'll then be put in the awkward position of wondering how to square what you see/hear with the court's conclusions. It's much easier to pass responsibility on to others that support your view than it is to do your own research and have it challenged when you uncover an uncomfortable truth. Sadly, most people think and act as you do, which is why I'm fearful of what could happen next.

You accuse Trump of undermining democracy - but that's not possible if he's using legitimate legal processes to achieve his aims. Democracy really is undermined when those with power and authority turn a blind eye to wrong doing they know has taken place. That's what's happened here, such that circa 47% of all americans - of which 30% of those are democrats - think the election was rigged. Democracy is up poo creek in a barbed wire boat if tens of millions of people think it's failed them at the highest level - electing their president. That you either don't understand this or think it doesn't matter is something I find deeply troubling as it's completely at odds with the man I believe you to be.
Tim.

No sub-text, Tim. Why should I believe anything just because I read it on the internet? And how can you regard what they say as “evidence” when you have no personal experience to call on? Does it not occur to you that if such “evidence” was as strong as you seem to think it would have been presented to the courts who would have tested its validity? That the supreme courts so far have not found any such “evidence“ valid suggests to me that it’s not there.

It really is a pointless exchange. You prefer to believe what you see and hear on the internet - I prefer to rely on the Supreme Court.

 

[cantagril]

Jon,
I'm sorry you feel it's acceptable to hide behind court judgements and not rely on what you see and read with your own eyes. Do your own research is a long established mantra of this forum which I apply to pretty much everything else - and certainly to the U.S. election. If you want to put this argument to bed, watch some of the videos posted to this thread and tell me in your own words that you see nothing that looks in the least bit suspicious or leads you to think that the election was run improperly in any way. Otherwise, I'll have no option but to put you in Alan's camp as someone who believes that getting rid of Trump is more important than preserving democracy. And that's a fair enough point of view - as crazy though I think it is.
Tim.

I'm curious Timski. You say that Jon should not hide behind court judgements but I dare say he read about these with his own eyes even though he might not have been present to see them.

Are you therefore saying that court judgements should not be a part of research? Or that they carry less weight than MS and Social media? Or maybe that contrary to my understanding that you were lurking about in some benighted part of the West Country, you are in fact living the high-life in Trumpland, footloose and mask-free and watching events unfold from a riot-side seat???

BTW, I have noted with some gloom that the great majority of sources trotted out here (not just by you) are financed by people who, let's say, have an interest in the direction that their organ points.

 

[alan5616]

It's time that the men in white coats came and removed him from the WH. The world will be a much safer place with him out of office.

 

[cantagril]

No sub-text, Tim. Why should I believe anything just because I read it on the internet? And how can you regard what they say as “evidence” when you have no personal experience to call on? Does it not occur to you that if such “evidence” was as strong as you seem to think it would have been presented to the courts who would have tested its validity? That the supreme courts so far have not found any such “evidence“ valid suggests to me that it’s not there.

It really is a pointless exchange. You prefer to believe what you see and hear on the internet - I prefer to rely on the Supreme Court.

Where's your stamina Jon? And why would you think that any exchange on T2W should actually have a point? I have prided myself on almost complete incoherence and an increasing distance from reality for a few decades, at least... and I'd just like to say that I have prided myself on almost complete incoherence and an increasing distance from reality for a few decades, at least.

 

[timsk]

No sub-text, Tim. Why should I believe anything just because I read it on the internet? And how can you regard what they say as “evidence” when you have no personal experience to call on? Does it not occur to you that if such “evidence” was as strong as you seem to think it would have been presented to the courts who would have tested its validity? That the supreme courts so far have not found any such “evidence“ valid suggests to me that it’s not there.

It really is a pointless exchange. You prefer to believe what you see and hear on the internet - I prefer to rely on the Supreme Court.

Hi Jon,
I think in all our exchanges a misunderstanding might have crept in. I really don't care who the next U.S. president is. If pushed, I'd opt for Trump, solely on the grounds that I believe (rightly or wrongly) that he likes the U.K. and Biden doesn't. As such, I think it's probably in our (i.e. the U.K.'s) best interests that Trump remains in post. But it's marginal, and I accept fully that he's a deeply flawed man and sympathise strongly with those that want shot of him. Honestly, I do! He could be everything that you, Pat and Alan say he is - and worse: literally be the devil incarnate, I don't care. It's not the point, it's not what matters. All that matters, to the exclusion of all else, is that the American people (and by extension the rest of the world), see that democracy has been served, that democracy has won. Democracy needs to win to ensure its survival; Trump and Biden are nothing but bit players; neither of them matter in the grand scheme of things. Anyway, back down to terra firma, large swathes of the American population perceive (again, rightly or wrongly) that a huge injustice has taken place, one that absolutely must be rectified. Pretending that nothing's wrong merely sews doubt in peoples minds about the impartiality of key players like the supreme court, and plays into the hands of those who seek to exploit the situation for nefarious purposes. Meanwhile, the 47% become 50% who grow to 55% etc., etc.

All I'm asking is that Trump's allegations are taken seriously and properly investigated by an independant third party that everyone - regardless of their political hue - can have confidence in. If it transpires that Trump is everything you think he is - and worse - I really don't care. All that matters is that those 47% of Americans who think they've been cheated will know for certain one way or the other and, subsequently, any remedial action that's required is taken. The tens of millions who currently feel disenfranchised will then have their faith in democracy restored. Nothing else matters (great song by Metallica, btw). If that doesn't happen, then the ultimate victim in all of this won't be Trump and the Republicans or Biden and the Democrats, it'll be domocracy itself.
Tim.

 

[timsk]

Hi cant'.

I'm curious Timski. You say that Jon should not hide behind court judgements but I dare say he read about these with his own eyes even though he might not have been present to see them.

Agreed.

Are you therefore saying that court judgements should not be a part of research? Or that they carry less weight than MS and Social media? Or maybe that contrary to my understanding that you were lurking about in some benighted part of the West Country, you are in fact living the high-life in Trumpland, footloose and mask-free and watching events unfold from a riot-side seat???

Nope.

BTW, I have noted with some gloom that the great majority of sources trotted out here (not just by you) are financed by people who, let's say, have an interest in the direction that their organ points.

Yeah, probably.

 

[alan5616]

I bet Trump's face was a picture when he saw this. It must have changed from orange to white

 

[timsk]

I bet Trump's face was a picture when he saw this. It must have changed from orange to white

Tehe, very good Alan, although I wonder if Joe has any idea which year it is - there aren't any clues for him on the cover!

 

[Pat494]

Yesterday's man won't withdraw quietly with some decency. Just goes to show how lucky the World is that he is finally finishing., but not without causing trouble for his successors. The creaky ole 18 th century US system needs a vast overhaul to get back on top. Other countries too, like the UK could sharpen up or run the risk of falling behind, into the arms of the Barbarians.

 

[timsk]

Yesterday's man won't withdraw quietly with some decency. Just goes to show how lucky the World is that he is finally finishing., but not without causing trouble for his successors.

It ain't over till the fat lady sings Pat - and she hasn't even taken to the stage yet. Come January 20th - it's still conceivable that Trump will be inaugurated for a second term. Unlikely, granted, but I certainly wouldn't bet against it.

 

[Pat494]

Because of caring for a friend I inadvertantly called her a " fat pudding " I am still suffering the consequences !
So I guess you are probably right on your assertion, Tim. Numerous apologies have had little effect.
Ah well that's life, I guess. Roll on Inauguration Day but I doubt it will shut Dumpy up much.

 

[peto]

I certainly wouldn't bet against it.

I would! Happy to take the other side of your trade

 

[counter_violent]

I would! Happy to take the other side of your trade

Must know something we don't.

All hell's gonna break loose if they continue ducking the issue.