The Market Matrix

[cjlee623]

Hi,

I thought it may be useful just to add something to this thread. I have been using MM for a couple of years and had some success with it, but I know that I still have more to learn.

Seeming some of you may be new to MM, I thought I will point out that there are quite a few things that I have found useful whilst learning MM, and especially in the last year or so I feel that the Market Matrix team have created more avenues for people to get better grips with it (at least this is my opinion). There are 2 main things that really helps in learning MM and especially has helped me to expand my knowledge on the subject.

1. They have a monthly newsletter which I have found invaluable, and can be found at (The Matrix Newsletter: Dow, FTSE, Dax and NASDAQ). As a subscriber of the newsletter, I have found it quite amazing how Steve Copan has put forward 14 date predictions of some major turns in the market all to come in bang on... with the last one having predicted the recent low in March 17th on S&P a month in advance. In my opinion, it is the most accurate newsletter out there. What really helps with the newsletter is that there is an explanation in how Steve Copan gets his date prediction by demonstrating how he applies Market Matrix.

2. The second thing that I find invaluable is the forum (DT Market Matrix Forum :: Index) that is accessible to anyone who has bought MM, where I have found Steve Copan himself contribute on numerous occasions. In addition you are able to be in contact with hundreds of people out there currently using Market Matrix.

Hope it helps.

 

[Slapshot]

Thanks BF1/Slapshot.

I don't mind putting in serious effort if it is proved to work. Like you say though BF1, the fact there is little response possibly means not many are using it. (Or else they're busy making sheds load of money and can't be interrupted to post!!).

Slapshot,
As an ex. practitionter of MM there used to be a forum for the exclusive use of those purchasing it. You don't know what the site name is do you? I'd like to see if they will let me have access to it, even though I bought mine second-hand.

I don't I'm afraid as I bought my CD's second hand also. I believe another poster has detailed the link though...

 

[GMP]

Well, I dunno. I came to this thread to have a look at the consensus regarding MM as Tom Hougaard is selling a new book version this week ("only folks!") for £525. Big reduction on the CDs and I respect Tom H's approach to TA, but I bought the Delta book a couple of years back and that boils down to a subjective approach, despite all the claims. Ditto Elliott waves - easy to apply in retrospect but curiously difficult to apply to the future with any regular accuracy.
It makes me wonder if it's the same with MM, but I haven't found much in this thread to persuade me either way. I don't doubt that it can work for some folk but how much can you put down to the method and how much to their personal implementation of it? Astrology works for some folk but that doesn't make it a science.
I guess if I could spare £500 I'd buy it out of curiousity... but I can't at the mo', so there's an end to it!

 

[cjlee623]

New Market Matrix Book
The Market Matrix By Steve Copan

Seeming I have the book, I thought that I will put a note up here for anyone who may be confused.

This book indeed is very different in comparison to the CDs. The REAL difference is the fact that there is no mention of DELTA at all in the book, and it is purely based on the Market Matrix. Now, this sentence alone may confuse quite a lot of you, but to put in simple terms having studied both DELTA and MARKET MATRIX, I can assure you that the two are very different. In simple terms, DELTA is like the unfinished work of what MARKET MATRIX (MM) is. To give an example, the time cycles that DELTA uses is in fact wrong, and this is the main reason as to why so many people are not able to accurately predict the high and low of any market. MM in comparison has corrected those mistakes, and the new book explains this in a lot of detail.

The real difference is that there was a lot of information that seems to have been missed out in the CDs, but this time within the book itself Steve Copan has definitely filled those gaps, and has allowed a new MM trader to quickly get to grasp with the quite complex knowledge. Not only that, it seems as though there is a full supportive nature that never existed before, starting from the book, to the monthly Matrix newsletter, to the Dynamic Trader software with Matrix Cycle feature added on to the software and finally a member's forum. Also what's quite a beauty is that Steve Copan has also added in a trading method to trade the MM in any market. If there was all this when I started with MM, I probably would have grasp the material a lot faster.

Fortunately, this time round, the book is a lot cheaper than the CDs ever were. Considering the book has more info than the CDs ever did, in some ways I wish I just waited for the book. With my experience so far, I have not come across a more complete system where providing you REALLY understand MM, it is by far the easiest way to make money in any market.

Keep in mind that MM does take a while to get to grasp with, and does take a lot of work to understand it. It is not something that you will understand overnight and probably take most people a year to REALLY understand MM. Also without the DT software, you will spend 80% of your time calculating when that is precisely what DT software will do for you in an instance. Personally, without the Matrix Cycles add-on in DT software, I think it will be near impossible to implement MM properly. However, what I have certainly experienced and found using MM for a couple of years is that if you REALLY understand MM, making money is just inevitable.

Hope this helps.

CJ.

 

[trendie]

from the MM website
"... The Foundations the
Market Matrix is built upon the Natural Time cycles of the planets
in our solar system that where created with the formation of the
universe, combined with simple mathematics and natural law that has
been around since Time began. ...." [holds head in hands and gently nods "no" icon]

form your post
" To give an example, the time cycles that DELTA uses is in fact wrong, and this is the main reason as to why so many people are not able to accurately predict the high and low of any market."

I spent an incredible amount of time trying to work out why the Delta points varied around, and tried to make excuses for the early arrival and late arrival of points, to no avail. Now, possibly, those Delta points were wrong to begin with. Believe me, I was not
averse to working into the early hours to get Delta to work.

Please understand that I am being analytical here, not cynical. The questions I ask should be seen as critical points, not rubbishing the product. (I suspect you would ask the same questions if you were contemplating buying the book.)

01: Can we be certain that the MM points themselves do not come with fudge-factor variables?
02: Did the original MM also believe that Delta was wrong, or is this a revelation for the new MM?
03: How complex is MM given that the new book is 144 pages of A4 with 89 full-colour charts? even if the charts were half-page pictures, thats about 45 pages of pictures. Thats only approx 100 pages of text. I reckon most of us could read that in 1 day, and get to grips with the concepts in a weekend. We're not stupid here. Most are technically minded, very numerate, and with better than average critical faculties. I am not counting the absolute newbies. A year to make work?!
04: ( tongue-in-cheek] given that Pluto is no longer a planet, will this affect the cycles count?
05: How discretionary is it? Would the MM analysis lead everyone to conclude identical points?
06: Your posts refer to Dynamic Trader and the MM add-on. But arent the add-ons a separate expense? If so, how much more?

A couple of forward calls would be useful. No-one would actually trade them, so no secrets are being unveiled.

If the book was around a hundred quid, I would buy it just to appease my curiosity; but for £600 I run the risk of being disappointed.

nevertheless, good luck with it.

 

[cjlee623]

Hi,

Just to be clear, the answer to your questions are just my own opinion.

From my understanding, and a combination of what I have heard within the community of MM traders (within the forum), I believe that when the original MM CDs were created, they were trying to pitch it to the DELTA community who were already familiar with the concepts, hence I believe they were using language that was common to them (i.e ITD, MTD, etc). However, I think what happened was that it created more confusion rather than clarity hence in the revised work in the form of the book, there is no mention of DELTA at all. From my experience and understanding, MM is very accurate and MM Time cycles are very accurate (i.e MC1-MC6). MM time cycles have no relevance with DELTA cycles apart from the fact that they share similar concepts, but the actual cycles themselves are different. To put it in simple terms, DELTA cycles are wrong.

I believe that the confusion of MM cycles and the mis-understanding that they were the same as DELTA time cycles is probably where people got confused from the CDs. You can clearly see these MM cycles when you purchase the Matrix Cycles add-on, as they are built within the software. This is why the DT software with the MM add-on is a necessity. Nothing in the book is new information, but finally the concepts of MM are much more clearly explained in comparison to before, and any missing information from the CDs filled within the book. Plus, in addition, this time round I believe that the MM team has put together a more complete package making it much easier for people to learn in comparison to before when I started.

I think what people miss is that there are no short-cuts with learning MM and no cheap way either. You need the book, the software, the MM add-on, the newsletter and the forum as a complete package to really learn MM properly. If you try and take short-cuts and cut any of them out, it will only delay your learning, which is certainly what I have experienced.

What seems really clear is that Steve Copan is not often one to expand on his words unnecessarily, and hence his manner in being concise and to the point often makes people over-look vital information and forget the MM rules. To give an example, I have heard and seen the MM CDs literally thousands of times each time understanding something new and realising that Steve Copan did mention things, but I just missed them. I think it's really easy to under-estimate MM and discard it quickly as something that doesn't seem to work and judge it quickly by the cover, but MM is not something that you can learn overnight or even in a month. It takes a while to digest the information properly, and you will know when you understand it properly, coz making money will just be inevitable after that. I have seen even the most competent of technical analyst to struggle with really understanding MM, however everyone is different. It will take some people less time and for some won't get it even with a lifetime hence my average of 1 year, plus it's just my own opinion and observation. You just won't know until you try it out and learn it, but the only thing I can assure is that MM works and is a complete system.

Lastly, providing that everyone understands MM properly, the solution that they come up with will be identical for that particular market in question. The best way in my opinion is to compare your solutions to that of the MM newsletter, and use it to confirm your understanding. I knew I understood it properly when I found my points coming in identically to the newsletter.

After coming to a point where I understand MM, I can now understand why Steve Copan charges what he charges, and to be honest I was a little annoyed that his new book is so much cheaper than the CDs, but I presume most people are too busy trying to create copies of MM and flog it illegally over the internet rather than spending the time to understand and implement MM.

Hope that helps.

CJ.

 

[NedKelly]

Hi,

Just to be clear, the answer to your questions are just my own opinion.

....

It never ceases to amaze me how many Newbies sign up to T2W and from their first post all they do is extol the virtues of a particular system/service/guru but claim to have no connection with the company.

 

[GMP]

New Market Matrix Book
Personally, without the Matrix Cycles add-on in DT software, I think it will be near impossible to implement MM properly. However, what I have certainly experienced and found using MM for a couple of years is that if you REALLY understand MM, making money is just inevitable.

CJ.

So I could spend £600 on a book but still have to lay out more on some software to do the maths for me, and some newsletters to doublecheck I got it right? If you "REALLY understand MM" why do you need software and newsletters?
Sorry to be cynical, but it's sounding more and more like the goose that laid the golden egg, (for its publishers!). I remember seeing a couple of sample MM newsletters, and even with them a couple of the predicted "turning points" in one issue were fudged or ignored in the next newsletter.
The more I learn about MM, the less I trust it as an objectively-applicable technique. I think the complexity is probably very convincing though. No doubt it works to an extent (Tom Hougaard is no fool and I know he extols it) and if I ever have the spare dosh I'll look into it out of curiousity, but I definitely get a whiff of snake oil about it.

 

[trendie]

So I could spend £600 on a book but still have to lay out more on some software to do the maths for me, and some newsletters to doublecheck I got it right? If you "REALLY understand MM" why do you need software and newsletters?
Sorry to be cynical, but it's sounding more and more like the goose that laid the golden egg, (for its publishers!). I remember seeing a couple of sample MM newsletters, and even with them a couple of the predicted "turning points" in one issue were fudged or ignored in the next newsletter.
The more I learn about MM, the less I trust it as an objectively-applicable technique. I think the complexity is probably very convincing though. No doubt it works to an extent (Tom Hougaard is no fool and I know he extols it) and if I ever have the spare dosh I'll look into it out of curiousity, but I definitely get a whiff of snake oil about it.

sort of agree, but wouldnt put it as strongly as "snake oil". (or maybe I am just being polite.)

if there are cycles, the numbers must be definitive, like the Delta monthly stuff. (unequivocal full moons etc)

its about taking a general concept, and drilling down into detail.
take the "cycle" as a framework, then start adding detail bit by bit.
if the principle isnt obvious, then there must be considerable discretion involved.

I also got the newsletters; unfortunately, deleted mine after a while, as I was unconvinced.

I just cant accept that it takes years to learn. the backtesting process would take, at a slovenly pace, 2 weekends max, to get a feel of viability.
(see Hoggums thread on backtesting CCI or RSI cross-overs as example)

if the book was available for £100 or so, I would take a punt.

EDIT: not happy Monday for me; -31 on a EURUSD short; unhappy particularly as I should have bailed at -20.

 

[GMP]

sort of agree, but wouldnt put it as strongly as "snake oil". (or maybe I am just being polite.)


if the book was available for £100 or so, I would take a punt.

EDIT: not happy Monday for me; -31 on a EURUSD short; unhappy particularly as I should have bailed at -20.

I did only say a whiff of snake oil! I think we're pretty much of the same opinion - MM sounds intriguing but there seems to be something about it that doesn't quite click.
Mind you, what do I know - I've been waiting for the dollar to top out against the Yen for a couple of days now and it's still not behaving!

 

[GMP]

Mind you, what do I know - I've been waiting for the dollar to top out against the Yen for a couple of days now and it's still not behaving!

Well, the dollar's finally topping out for a spell but I should've been following cable rather than the Yen pairing - never mind!

 

[Victor90]

Well, the dollar's finally topping out for a spell but I should've been following cable rather than the Yen pairing - never mind!

I have been watching the USD/YEN i i think it might be on a fall towards the major low of 80 someting, on a long term view. Whats your opinion?

 

[GMP]

I have been watching the USD/YEN i i think it might be on a fall towards the major low of 80 someting, on a long term view. Whats your opinion?

I don't think very longterm I'm afraid - the daily chart is the longest one I take into account, and that seemed to break the past year's downtrend last week. If pushed, I'm inclined to think this is the beginning of the dollar clawing back some ground for a few weeks if anything, but I wouldn't put any money on it - my focus is hourly charts.

I'm on a Sell right at this moment (5:05pm BST Mon16th) but it still feels very strong to me so I don't see it falling very far.

 

[Victor90]

I don't think very longterm I'm afraid - the daily chart is the longest one I take into account, and that seemed to break the past year's downtrend last week. If pushed, I'm inclined to think this is the beginning of the dollar clawing back some ground for a few weeks if anything, but I wouldn't put any money on it - my focus is hourly charts.

I'm on a Sell right at this moment (5:05pm BST Mon16th) but it still feels very strong to me so I don't see it falling very far.

Okey! But good to hear your opnion.

 

[mee1]

Now I am going to purchase the use CDs of Market Matrix .

I am not sure if it is worth to buy; however, what I hear from this board about Steve Copan's Cds is both good and bad. This means someone confirms it is worth to buy while the others say it is useless.
I want to try by myself to know exactly if it is really good and if it can practically be applied in the real market to gain more accuracy on time prediction of high-low sequence.

For those who have experience on Copn's Market Matrix, would you please kindly advise the best route of studying the CDs? What should I pay more attention ? Which CD is giving the most valuable information ? and so on...
Due to buying the used CDs, I am not sure I can join the forum which discusses market matrix issues.
If not being able to join the forum, is there any other forum discussing the market matrix issues and usage problems for my furhter study ?

 

[Slapshot]

For those who have experience on Copn's Market Matrix, would you please kindly advise the best route of studying the CDs? What should I pay more attention ? Which CD is giving the most valuable information ? and so on...
Due to buying the used CDs, I am not sure I can join the forum which discusses market matrix issues.
If not being able to join the forum, is there any other forum discussing the market matrix issues and usage problems for my furhter study ?

There are 3 CD's which must be followed in order to fully understand the principles of what MM is about.

Each section adds another layer or set of instructions to the previous section building up the system itself as you progress.

Be advised though, that MM takes some serious study and a very very long time to get to grips with. If you read through this thread and others on this site you'll gain some nuggets of information which will help you.

I no longer use MM and will happily sell my CD's to anyone who's interested.

 

[mee1]

There are 3 CD's which must be followed in order to fully understand the principles of what MM is about.

Each section adds another layer or set of instructions to the previous section building up the system itself as you progress.

Be advised though, that MM takes some serious study and a very very long time to get to grips with. If you read through this thread and others on this site you'll gain some nuggets of information which will help you.

I no longer use MM and will happily sell my CD's to anyone who's interested.

Slapshot,

Thank you for your advice.
From your post, I understand that MM is good; however,what I do not understand is why you quit using it if it is good.
Since I already read through many messages about Copan's Market Matrix on this board,
I doubt many points on the given personal opinoins of different members. I thus am interested in exploring Copan's MM by myself. I am not sure that his concepts are the same as what is happened in software named Wave59 of which functions can be applying to predict the High-Low sequence of time and price.
Besides, most of other boards I visited also talk about Copan's Market Matrix. But,no-one can point out the details vividly. It seems that Copan's MM is black box which is kept known in some small secret society. If any member can guide me the place where I can discuss or study the MM for more understanding the system. I would be very appreciate. (I already read through Delta Phenomenon of Welles, and it seems this book is useless to me. )

 

[Slapshot]

Slapshot,

Thank you for your advice.
From your post, I understand that MM is good; however,what I do not understand is why you quit using it if it is good.
Since I already read through many messages about Copan's Market Matrix on this board,
I doubt many points on the given personal opinoins of different members. I thus am interested in exploring Copan's MM by myself. I am not sure that his concepts are the same as what is happened in software named Wave59 of which functions can be applying to predict the High-Low sequence of time and price.
Besides, most of other boards I visited also talk about Copan's Market Matrix. But,no-one can point out the details vividly. It seems that Copan's MM is black box which is kept known in some small secret society. If any member can guide me the place where I can discuss or study the MM for more understanding the system. I would be very appreciate. (I already read through Delta Phenomenon of Welles, and it seems this book is useless to me. )

Mee1, I studied the matrix but I struggled to put it into real life real time use. Since that point (2-3 years ago) I moved onto other methods which work for me. That's not to say that the MM doesn't work because there are posters on this forum that have and are using it successfully, it just wasn't for me. Trading is often described as a journey, taking time to find what works for you, and believe me I've tried a lot of stuff and spent a lot of money in the process. If you do decide to go ahead with MM then I wish you every success

The MM by Steve Copan is his own 'version' of the Delta Phenomenon taking many of the original principle and adding his own studies to it. As I said in my previous post the CD's guide you though all the stages of 'building' the matrix. The MM is certainly not a black box system, as I've previously said all the compenents are explained in detail through each section of the course.

I have no experience of Wave59 so can't comment on what it is.

Hope this helps.

 

[Paddington]

Mee,
I would echo Slapshot's comments - not a blackbox but a way of understanding the market using various tools.

Wave59 I think is based on Bryce Gilmour's work which definitely has much overlap with the concepts in the matrix so would prob fit to an extent. HIs geometry of markets book is probably a useful read alongside this, although not for faint hearted as it's not an easy read.

One thing to be aware of with the market is that it vibrates using different methods at different times. The concept to my mind is to become aware of enough methods that you can recognise the changing signatures. Matrix teaches you some of these but as with anything it can take varying amounts of time to integrate these methods into your mindset and to apply these principles as I'm sure many have mentioned here is work.

If you try enough stuff some of it will stick and be successful, maybe extremely successful. I find the matrix stuff quite useful as it fits some other concepts I use. Others if they've been trading for years probably view some of this as bread and butter and how do people not know it whilst for some it will be eye opening and for some I've heard it's far too much to take in or actually just irrelevant to how they want to trade. All of these possibilities are relevant

Bit like learning to drive - you have to learn to use the clutch, the brake, change gears, steer, look in th rearview mirror, keep out an eye for traffic signals etc etc. Your mind needs to time to integrate various steps and items and build the neural pathways.

Probably a worthwhile step on the journey if you're interested in market geometry and like the concept that markets vibrate around certain numbers and ratios. The concepts within it are definitely useful at times as they can highlight very high probability trades but these do not necessarily occur to order.

good luck with whatever you decide...

P

 

[mee1]

There are 3 CD's which must be followed in order to fully understand the principles of what MM is about.

Each section adds another layer or set of instructions to the previous section building up the system itself as you progress.

Be advised though, that MM takes some serious study and a very very long time to get to grips with. If you read through this thread and others on this site you'll gain some nuggets of information which will help you.

I no longer use MM and will happily sell my CD's to anyone who's interested.

Thank you for your advice.
I do not understand what you want to mention that "MM takes some serious study and a very very long time to get to grips with".
If you mean the work like the attached picture ??