fatboyslim
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BF1 said:
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There probably doesn`t exist such an encryption system that can resist copying or else all of the film companies would use it on their DVD`s. The producers of MM could have coupled their program with a dongle, but then this would have required further investment on their part and less profits.
IMO if they were so sure that their system worked for everyone that put the effort in, and they were so confident of it, they wouldn`t have to offer the pathetic and worthless guarantee that they do.
IMO if they were so sure that their system worked for everyone that put the effort in, and they were so confident of it, they wouldn`t have to offer the pathetic and worthless guarantee that they do.
fatboyslim said:
NedKelly
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BF1 said:
If the system worked you wouldn't need to even advertise it, just give a free copy to one of the T2W guys to review and a glowing review would have everyone on this forum beating a path to their door. If it works so well you wouldn't even need to sell it, just trade the system. You could just give it away to be altruistic.
A litte clarity
Just to add a little clarity to the discussion. Steve Copan was presuaded by a well known Spread Betting person to share his material. Steve jokingly said he would only do it for a large sum - which was agreed. A limited number of people were invited (I unfortunately could not make it, but know of two people who did). With a combination of repeated followup questions and word that an audience member was passing the material off as their own, Steve decided the best thing to do was to repeat the course on DVD. The original batch went to those who attended the days event, and like myself a few who had not been able to attend. One of the group asked if it would be possible to market the DVDs to a larger audience and Steve agreed provided he had nothing more to do with it. Since then all of the marketting and followup has been handled by third parties. I cannot comment on their marketing skills or their understanding of the material.
My personal opinion regarding those who claim it does not work; they have failed to put in the effort. I have been using the Matrix as part of my trading since I first watched the DVD. (Am I a millionaire - not yet, but compounding nicely) I've made mistakes, I've confused myself, but in every case I did my homework and figured out where I went wrong. This is by no means a 'holy-grail' fire & forget trading indicator. It is a methodology that requires discipline, study and of course money management. I know of matrix users who do lose money on it - most commonly due to a lack of money management (Thousands of pounds up and then let it all go against them and end up with a large loss) - and there are scare stories!
To conclude, if you want to know about the methodolgy... invest in your education - otherwise forget about it and move on!
Just to add a little clarity to the discussion. Steve Copan was presuaded by a well known Spread Betting person to share his material. Steve jokingly said he would only do it for a large sum - which was agreed. A limited number of people were invited (I unfortunately could not make it, but know of two people who did). With a combination of repeated followup questions and word that an audience member was passing the material off as their own, Steve decided the best thing to do was to repeat the course on DVD. The original batch went to those who attended the days event, and like myself a few who had not been able to attend. One of the group asked if it would be possible to market the DVDs to a larger audience and Steve agreed provided he had nothing more to do with it. Since then all of the marketting and followup has been handled by third parties. I cannot comment on their marketing skills or their understanding of the material.
My personal opinion regarding those who claim it does not work; they have failed to put in the effort. I have been using the Matrix as part of my trading since I first watched the DVD. (Am I a millionaire - not yet, but compounding nicely) I've made mistakes, I've confused myself, but in every case I did my homework and figured out where I went wrong. This is by no means a 'holy-grail' fire & forget trading indicator. It is a methodology that requires discipline, study and of course money management. I know of matrix users who do lose money on it - most commonly due to a lack of money management (Thousands of pounds up and then let it all go against them and end up with a large loss) - and there are scare stories!
To conclude, if you want to know about the methodolgy... invest in your education - otherwise forget about it and move on!
Bigbusiness
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Kardinal said:
I remember Steve was doing a Delta course before he did Nexus and then the Market Matrix and then another one after that. It is clever of him to make it look like he has been forced to sell all this stuff but I don't think it took too much arm twisting
AC007
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Bigbusiness said:I remember Steve was doing a Delta course before he did Nexus and then the Market Matrix and then another one after that. It is clever of him to make it look like he has been forced to sell all this stuff but I don't think it took too much arm twisting
SC did not want to do the cd but some sb people made him do it. Excellent bit of marketing.
Lord Flasheart
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Oh well its taken me two hours to read through all the posts about MM and my conclusion is that it can work just as a moving average can, its purely down to the operator and clearly its not worth 2 grand for it
Kardinal said:
Thats the problem, there's nothing new in the methodology!!!
Delta has been well covered with its limitations with standard deviation (SD) on guessing future turn points.
Anybody can stick 4 lines on a chart at set intervals, be it days, weeks, lunar , seasons or what ever takes their fancy and number the highs and lows to form some form of pattern through the cycle of their choice, making sure no more than 3 highs in a row except for an inversion..
So for the next part is how could one "guess" the next turn point a bit better than the SD way.
The old favourite elliott wave and Fibonacci is an ideal bed fellow... After all one could argue delta is Elliott. Going back to the 3 highs in a row except for an inversion could be worded , 3 highs in a row except for an impluse extension of a certain degree.
Moving on to the fib bit, we all know elliott waves ( points?) relate to the Fibonacci series or variants such as Lucas or ratio's of these numbers such as doubles ect.
Its been standard practice for years to project fib bar counts and time extensions of waves out from previous wave lows and highs (points) in order to get a time zone when the numbers line up. The same can be done with price by adding or subtracting these numbers from the wave points to get a price area.
There is nothing new in this by any means of the imagination. Robert Miner's book for example explains the basic concepts of these methods and his software, like most others, geared to Elliott trading has all these features already in place.
Miner is no means the only one he's just an easy example, the point is there is nothing new in using elliott and fibs to try and pick time pressure points. The idea of the delta is to give probable direction, but a correct Elliott count will do the same thing.
If people are that interested in these time and price methods I'd say get a copy of Miner's book of ebay, Tony Plummer and Robert Fischer's works are also worth a read.
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Interesting thread. When I first read the interview with Steve Copan in Traders mag, I was quite interested in this - although not for 2k! Now I'm being mailshotted like it were a Vince Stanzione last ever trading seminar. I'm sceptical that a successful trading methodology would really require such hard selling tactics.
I've considered buying the system but what you're talking about is the exact conflict that needs resolution. Why is the 'most promising' trading system of all time is associated with such an unprofessional marketing scheme? It's also strange that,to my knowledge, nobody has posted results or predictions using the system. But these arguments do not directly address the content so the follwing is my view on the MM system.
The MM appears based on four fundamentals (see www.tradertom.com): Delta, Elliott Waves, Fibonacci counts and Fibonacci ratios. I believe that Steve's focus on time is an unusual but a very promising place to start. I've investigated Delta on two years of intraday data on GBPUSD and, despite the disgruntlement of many Delta-doubters, the Delta turning points can be seen in general but not (in my opinion) in the robust manner that Wilder claims. For instance, there are some turning points that appear regularly but disappear at other times but this could very well be different for other instruments. Furthermore, intraday turning points can vary in the region of several hours which can make for a very boring trading day. Steve Copan claims to have overcome issues of variance and also inversions using the remaining three elements. The issue that doesn't sit well is that Tom Hougaard who appears to be a phenomenal trader and a follower of the MM system appears to be having this problem of inversion (see his maps and associated commentary at tradertom.com). Either: Tom is not using Steve's solution, Steve's solution doesn't work in the markets Tom is analysing, or Steve's solution doesn't work full stop. Maybe some traders using MM can comment on this.
The notion of using E-waves mixed with Fibs is clearly unoriginal but again seems like a promising addition to a Delta-based trading method. However we are now moving from a presumed static market structure to one that is dynamic. So if these inaccuracies and inversions can be corrected then they must take on time/price values and geometries that are associated with Fibs and E-waves. This forces the identification of a set of Fibs that the market structure is likely to take on and (for extra credit) the relative frequency associated with these values or the probability of transitioning from value to another (as in a Markov chain) - this clearly removes the level of certainty that Steve Copan is referring to. Another hitch is that almost any value can be identified as being an approximate Fib ratio. For example, if you take a certain power or root of a known Fib ratio and then multiply it by another Fib ratio if need be (e.g. 0.64 can be regarded as an approximate equivalent of half the square root of 1.618). What we end up with is likely to be a massive set of Fib ratios to work with (!!!) which can make it very difficult to identify genuinely informative signals from pure noise. Maybe some traders that are very involved in Fibs can comment on how they select which Fib ratios to work with. A final observation here is that Steve Copan appears to have a loose affinity with the DynamicTrader group which makes me wonder if his methods have been influenced by their publications. I haven't finished reading the Dymanic Trader book but the techniques for time analysis don't seem to provide any definite answers.
Lastly, the big question in the minds of everyone who's stumbled across MM but not bought it is what possible information could Steve Copan divulge that would put a £1900 premium on the cost of the Delta method? I expect that this rather large premium has come from the results produced rather than the novelty or complexity of his methods. On this premise I prefer to conduct my own investigations.
The MM appears based on four fundamentals (see www.tradertom.com): Delta, Elliott Waves, Fibonacci counts and Fibonacci ratios. I believe that Steve's focus on time is an unusual but a very promising place to start. I've investigated Delta on two years of intraday data on GBPUSD and, despite the disgruntlement of many Delta-doubters, the Delta turning points can be seen in general but not (in my opinion) in the robust manner that Wilder claims. For instance, there are some turning points that appear regularly but disappear at other times but this could very well be different for other instruments. Furthermore, intraday turning points can vary in the region of several hours which can make for a very boring trading day. Steve Copan claims to have overcome issues of variance and also inversions using the remaining three elements. The issue that doesn't sit well is that Tom Hougaard who appears to be a phenomenal trader and a follower of the MM system appears to be having this problem of inversion (see his maps and associated commentary at tradertom.com). Either: Tom is not using Steve's solution, Steve's solution doesn't work in the markets Tom is analysing, or Steve's solution doesn't work full stop. Maybe some traders using MM can comment on this.
The notion of using E-waves mixed with Fibs is clearly unoriginal but again seems like a promising addition to a Delta-based trading method. However we are now moving from a presumed static market structure to one that is dynamic. So if these inaccuracies and inversions can be corrected then they must take on time/price values and geometries that are associated with Fibs and E-waves. This forces the identification of a set of Fibs that the market structure is likely to take on and (for extra credit) the relative frequency associated with these values or the probability of transitioning from value to another (as in a Markov chain) - this clearly removes the level of certainty that Steve Copan is referring to. Another hitch is that almost any value can be identified as being an approximate Fib ratio. For example, if you take a certain power or root of a known Fib ratio and then multiply it by another Fib ratio if need be (e.g. 0.64 can be regarded as an approximate equivalent of half the square root of 1.618). What we end up with is likely to be a massive set of Fib ratios to work with (!!!) which can make it very difficult to identify genuinely informative signals from pure noise. Maybe some traders that are very involved in Fibs can comment on how they select which Fib ratios to work with. A final observation here is that Steve Copan appears to have a loose affinity with the DynamicTrader group which makes me wonder if his methods have been influenced by their publications. I haven't finished reading the Dymanic Trader book but the techniques for time analysis don't seem to provide any definite answers.
Lastly, the big question in the minds of everyone who's stumbled across MM but not bought it is what possible information could Steve Copan divulge that would put a £1900 premium on the cost of the Delta method? I expect that this rather large premium has come from the results produced rather than the novelty or complexity of his methods. On this premise I prefer to conduct my own investigations.
Software used to apply MM
Hi,
I am wondering from anyone that uses MM, what software package they use to do their analysis?? Can you use DynamicTrader software to analyse UK equities?? Or is it just for US equities, FOREX and commodities?
In addition, isn't there a cheaper software package which could be used to do delta analysis?
Many thanks.
CJ.
Hi,
I am wondering from anyone that uses MM, what software package they use to do their analysis?? Can you use DynamicTrader software to analyse UK equities?? Or is it just for US equities, FOREX and commodities?
In addition, isn't there a cheaper software package which could be used to do delta analysis?
Many thanks.
CJ.
Slapshot
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cjlee623 said:
When I was looking at MM I asked Trader Tom (www.tradertom.com) for his views as he uses it and has links on his web page about it. His response was :
"I use E-signal for my work with the Market Matrix, so I can't really say if the platforms you use are any use. Can you draw on them and count bars between two points, then you willl be fine. "
It may be worth taking a look at www.prorealtime.com which is quite a good package and free for end-of-day. There are lots of charting packages available and a section on this site dedicated to them, take a look.
Kardinal said:
This doesn't appear to fit with the content of the market matrix web site which has his name all over it, and also a copy of an interview he purportedly gave to Traders magazine.
He is marketikng / selling via other people, but is clearly actively involved.
Forex intraweek cycle
Visit my thread on MoneyTec for forex, currency futures traders. I post new Delta time frame where there are about 9 or 10 turn points per trade week. Here's the link: http://www.moneytec.com/forums/f59/intraweek-cycles-eur-usd-gbp-usd-20734/
Visit my thread on MoneyTec for forex, currency futures traders. I post new Delta time frame where there are about 9 or 10 turn points per trade week. Here's the link: http://www.moneytec.com/forums/f59/intraweek-cycles-eur-usd-gbp-usd-20734/
Anyone using Market Matrix successfully?
Found this thread but no posts on it for ages.
Interested to know does anyone still use the Market Matrix techniques successfully?
I just purchased the MM CDs second-hand and find the system intriguing to say the least. Astonishing really if the accuracy he demonstrates in the CDs are anything to go by. Some of his trading examples seem to be great with hindsight but far more seem to have merits and cannot be down to coincidences alone when he has so many methods cross validating one another.
Just like to hear from people who have had success implementing the system in ‘live’ trading’. I can see it will take a lot of effort and practice to use the methodology but I am prepared to put the effort in, if it has proved to work.
Found this thread but no posts on it for ages.
Interested to know does anyone still use the Market Matrix techniques successfully?
I just purchased the MM CDs second-hand and find the system intriguing to say the least. Astonishing really if the accuracy he demonstrates in the CDs are anything to go by. Some of his trading examples seem to be great with hindsight but far more seem to have merits and cannot be down to coincidences alone when he has so many methods cross validating one another.
Just like to hear from people who have had success implementing the system in ‘live’ trading’. I can see it will take a lot of effort and practice to use the methodology but I am prepared to put the effort in, if it has proved to work.
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Slapshot
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Hi,
I studied the MM for ages and found some success with it. However it really does require some serious study to get a good handle on it. As far as I'm aware TraderTom still uses it.
I've still got the CD's tucked away somewhere but now study price & volume only.
Thanks BF1/Slapshot.
I don't mind putting in serious effort if it is proved to work. Like you say though BF1, the fact there is little response possibly means not many are using it. (Or else they're busy making sheds load of money and can't be interrupted to post!!).
Slapshot,
As an ex. practitionter of MM there used to be a forum for the exclusive use of those purchasing it. You don't know what the site name is do you? I'd like to see if they will let me have access to it, even though I bought mine second-hand.
I don't mind putting in serious effort if it is proved to work. Like you say though BF1, the fact there is little response possibly means not many are using it. (Or else they're busy making sheds load of money and can't be interrupted to post!!).
Slapshot,
As an ex. practitionter of MM there used to be a forum for the exclusive use of those purchasing it. You don't know what the site name is do you? I'd like to see if they will let me have access to it, even though I bought mine second-hand.
As mentioned above, Trader Tom is a user/promoter of MM - Trader Tom: : Dow, FTSE, Dax and NASDAQ
He does seminars and may have one on MM which may be of use to you.
He does seminars and may have one on MM which may be of use to you.