The lunatics are back in charge of the economy and they want cuts, cuts, cuts

All I see here is arguments saying not to implement any cuts and so far there has been nothing of any alternative to solve this issue. Canada was able to do it and survive and I don't see why we cannot do the same. Using the USA as a basis for not having cuts is flawed, they are quickly approaching a level of debt higher than their GDP and that is certain to spell disaster as it cannot be sustained. The only option for the USA is for China to right off all the USD they have and let it all start again. The USA have had serious debt issues for as long as I can remember and never addressed them.

The only other way is to have a war.


Paul
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/16/lib-cons-excuse-shrink-state

The lemmings are heading for the cliff, and there seems to be no stopping them now. Cuts mania has got Britain's coalition in its grip, and next week's emergency budget promises to be a field day for the deficit hawks. For weeks we have been softened up with the drumbeat of debt, orchestrated by a media – including the BBC – which endlessly repeats as fact the catechism that the deficit is a mortal threat and cuts the only way out.

Whatever the evidence or the arguments, the answer is always the same. So now we're primed for higher taxes, weighted towards the poorest through increased VAT; a Liberal Democrat-led attack on "gold-plated" public sector pensions, which average £4,000 a year in local government and £6,000 in the health service; and the prospect of a scythe through public services that has already taken chunks out of free school meals and support for the young unemployed.

The problem isn't just that cuts risk tipping us back into recession and will hit the worst-off hardest. It's that by taking demand out of the economy and undermining a fragile recovery in the process they could actually increase the size of the deficit, as has happened in Greece and Ireland. And, as Spain has been discovering this week, austerity programmes that hit growth spook the bond markets in exactly the way David Cameron has warned will happen to Britain unless it starts cutting immediately.
[...]
If under pressure, the cuts enthusiasts bring into play the much-vaunted "structural deficit" as a trump card. This is supposed to be the underlying deficit once recovery is on track and the focus for cuts and tax rises. By Budd's estimate, it now accounts for the large bulk of the budget shortfall.

But in fact it's not an objective measure, and depends on contested estimates of economic capacity loss during the recession and what you expect to happen to growth. That, in turn, hinges on what the government does to public spending, so the argument is circular. The reality is that the deficit was less than 3% when the financial crisis hit and is now over 10%, courtesy of a private investment collapse. But structural deficit estimates are solemnly presented as unchallengeable fact.

What's become clearer is that for the Lib-Con leaders and their strongest supporters, the deficit is an ideal excuse to do something they were determined to do in any case: shrink the state. This week Spectator editor Fraser Nelson complained that better borrowing figures risked undermining the case for cuts, which should be pushed through "come what may". What is driving the Tory thirst for cuts above all is classic small-state Thatcherism sailing under a phoney flag of necessity.
[...]
Meanwhile, the government now has cover from the rise of the deficit hawks in the eurozone and the G20, where the US is one of the last voices opposing the lurch towards a lost decade. Cuts have become, like light-touch financial regulation before them, conventional wisdom. But as the Nobel prizewinning economist Paul Krugman argues, this is "utter folly posing as wisdom".

The only member of the Bank of England's monetary policy committee to have called the crisis right, David Blanchflower, says he is now "100% certain" there will be a double-dip recession. That should be an open goal for Labour. But it's hamstrung by its record and commitment in government to make its own deep cuts from next year.
[...]
But on the economy, as in much else, their reinvention will need to go a lot further if Labour is to provide effective opposition and carve out a coherent alternative to the coalition's disastrous approach. That would include a recognition of the need to use the part nationalised banks to drive recovery, rather than fattening them up for privatisation, and a public investment programme in the industries of the future.

That wouldn't suit Orange Book Cable, who has warned against the "new interventionism". But as the Cambridge economist Ha-Joon Chang argues, Britain has no choice, in the face of a shrinking financial sector, industrial decline and falling North Sea oil revenues. Chang makes the case not just for industrial subsidy, but restrictions on takeovers, the promotion of "patient capital", the direction of lending by publicly owned banks and even, heretically, learning from other countries' success in picking industrial winners. "The problem", he says, "is that the City mentality permeates every aspect of public life in this country."
 
Aw, Paul, cummon, it's all a permanent three card trick anyway.

A guy walked into our local hostelry and plonked down £50 as security while he went to inspect the master suite to see if it was suitable for a week-end romp with his young lady. The Landlord promptly whipped round to the local off-licence with the £50 and paid his outstanding bill for a few bottles of scotch he'd bought in an emergency. The off-licence guy whizzed with the £50 to his dentist and paid off his outstanding bill with it. The dentist owed his receptionist £50 so he gave it to her. The receptionist doubled as an "escort" and nipped round to the local hostelry to pay the Landlord her outstanding bill for a room she had hired for the afternoon. Just as she left the guy came down from the master-suite saying it wasn't suitable and the Landlord gave him his £50 back.

Nobody had done anything or produced anything but, VOILA, suddenly no-one was in debt anymore and everyone went their merry way.

jon

Ha ha !
Goods and services exchanged and value added all free of charge LOL
Behind this is the reality that it is not money supply that matters in the end, but the velocity of money supply.
 
It's that by taking demand out of the economy and undermining a fragile recovery in the process they could actually increase the size of the deficit, as has happened in Greece and Ireland. And, as Spain has been discovering this week,

As usual this is polarised, I note there is no mention of Canada who have addressed the same issue and with great success. Greece, Ireland and Spain are not the same as the UK. Everyone everywhere is predicting the outcome and the reality is that no one really knows. We will just have to wait and see.


Paul
 
Paul

Canada was alone in doing it, not with everyone else doing the same thing at the same time. And at a time of strong economic growth which accounted for much of the saving:

Canada's New Government is also reducing the national debt by $13.2 billion, one of the largest debt reductions in Canadian history. Minister Flaherty explained that this debt reduction is the result of strong revenue growth, reflecting the strength of the economy, and lower-than-expected program expenses.

from http://www.fin.gc.ca/n06/06-047-eng.asp

jon
 
Ha ha !
Goods and services exchanged and value added all free of charge LOL
Behind this is the reality that it is not money supply that matters in the end, but the velocity of money supply.

Interesting. What, in your estimation Richard, governs the velocity of the money supply?
 
I think Keyne's unadulterated ideas are actually very sound and practical, however it needs to be a consistently implemented solution. Unfortunately we've had 20 years of 'the market is always right' until the massive incompetent institutions that milked the crazy amounts of credit in the system came undone. Suddenly it was time for fiscal stimulus again, almost as though all the Austrian school economists in government saw the light like Paul on the road to Damascus! It would be nice to be able to carry on the stimulus however a few factors make that unwise:
1) Unfortunately stimulus spending only works when you exercise restraint with low spending, higher taxes and high interest rates in the 'hot' stage of the economic cycle. Most governments, particularly Britain, did not do this so now we don't have the free hand to carry on fanning the flames of the faltering economic recovery.
2) The high levels of debt will lead to dramatically higher yields being demanded by bondholders in the future as we're seeing in Europe. That situation has to be proactively avoided as once you start seeing the yield curve and spreads changing shape its already too late and this can lead to a rapid downward spiral. Sure if someone else who has been responsible and saved their money (e.g. Germany or China) comes along and bails you out thats fine, but anyone with a sense of responsibility wouldn't want to rely on that.
3) Government cutbacks don't mean the government isn't still stimulating the economy. Although the Stonehenge visitor centre might have to wait for a few more years, don't forget about all the benefits, salaries and capital works which will carry on. The Government will continue to make up a significant percentage of overall economic activity.

I know this all needs balance, and the Government needs to be careful not to cut too savagely. On the other hand there are plenty of 'low hanging fruit' as we're seeing that can be cancelled without leading to the end of civilisation as we know it. The frugality needs to be based upon sound rational economics rather than any ideological desire to slash the role of government in British society.

If a decision to embrace Keynsianism is made (and we've never seen true Keynsianism at work, do some reading on something called money illusion for a start) it must be consistent throughout the economic cycle. Unfortunately governments have always had trouble putting on the brakes heading towards the prosperity phase of the economic cycle, especially when elections are in the offing!
 
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Unfortunately governments have always had trouble putting on the brakes heading towards the prosperity phase of the economic cycle, especially when elections are in the offing!


Yes..."stop-go" policies; boom and bust, etc, and don't think this was historically confined to Labour Governments; the reverse, if anything.

This is presumably part of why Brown gave the Bank of England sole independent responsibility for interest rates, to avoid the possibility or suggestion that interest rates would be set for party political reasons. But when it came to the crunch they were tried and found wanting, and yet now they have been given even more power; presumably now, more than enough rope to hang themselves with. Pity that it will be at others' expense (yet again).


It is still early days, but cracks in the Lib-Dem party, if not the Coalition, are beginning to show. The Coalition may stick together, but I am sure the Lib-Dem party is going to end up split, just as the old Liberal Party did, and for similar reasons. We will end up with "Liberal-Democrat-Nationals", like Clegg and Cable, in the government, and "Liberal-Democrats" on the backbenches and outside Parliament, perhaps including the likes of Charles Kennedy. I wonder what Simon Hughes would do.

David Lloyd George's son, Gwilym was a "Liberal-National"(*), and ended up going over to the Tories; I suspect that is what Clegg will end up doing.


((*)Slightly more complicated than that - full story for political anoraks here)
 
right to adress a few of the views on here...first regarding the effect of cuts, if you try to cut with your output gap running at over 5% you are ****ed. Look at the level of unemployment it is pretty clear that the economy (not just the UK) is not running anywhere near full capacity so if you cut you will be in deep shiiite. That is just basic economics that isn't under dispute from anyone, notice how everyone thinks exports will save them. So the effect is Europe is well and truly ****ed and heading towards serious deflation.

What is under debate is a country like the UK where it isn't clear what the recession actually did? Inflation is clearly overstated but it raises a question of how much capacity was destroyed in the recession...it seems this may be quite high. This would generally support the view that the country will be able to take some cuts as it is running closer to full capacity than most other countries. However, IMF forecasts of the output gap are still around 5%...so that totally doesn't support the arguement.

It is also pretty clear that its a serious error to swallow the government line about Canada as an example. This is pretty laughable to anyone who has actually looked at the economics or has a basic understanding. First, Canda was some way out of its own recession when the cuts were attempted i.e 3 years or so. Second, think what was happening in the mid-1990s and where is Canada close to? Yes, quite obviously it benefitted from huge US growth in exports in this period. But wait who is Britain going to export to...???The only counterarguement is that Britain is able to depreicate rapidly but that might make no difference if no1 can buy the gear. The final point is that BoC were able to cut rates whilst this was happening this clearly isn't an option. So all in all, it helps if you actually do some research rather than copying what you read in the FT.

Whats the solution? Don't know, don't care it isn't really my problem but it is a lot more simple than people make out. I find it far more interesting that everyone is jumping on board and saying things that don't make sense. The UK is obviously in a better situation than Europe but the simple answer I think is that if you can save more and export more you should be ok, if you can't there isn't much you can do and spare capacity will grow and the economy will have to adapt to the world situation. I doubt that there would be much problem funding deficits basically anywhere and more debt wouldn't lead to hyperinflation, that doesn't make any sense and to compare the situation to Zim. is again laughable.
 
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Paul Krugman on Germany's deficit hawks

Paul Krugman on Germany's deficit hawks



The price of economic posturing

It lacks the hypocrisy of its US cousin, but German deficit hawkery is equally misguided and dangerous

Paul Krugman in Berlin
guardian.co.uk, Friday 18 June 2010 20.59 BS

Suddenly creating jobs is out, inflicting pain is in. Condemning deficits and refusing to help a still struggling economy has become the new fashion everywhere – including the United States, where 52 senators voted against extending aid to the unemployed despite the highest rate of long-term joblessness since the 1930s.

Many economists, myself included, regard this turn to austerity as a huge mistake. It raises memories of 1937, when FDR's premature attempt to balance the budget helped plunge a recovering economy back into severe recession. And here in Germany a few scholars see parallels to the policies of Heinrich Brüning, the chancellor from 1930 to 1932, whose devotion to financial orthodoxy ended up sealing the doom of the Weimar Republic.

But despite these warnings, the deficit hawks are prevailing in most places – and nowhere more than in Germany, where the government has pledged €80bn in tax increases and spending cuts even though the economy continues to operate far below capacity.

What's the economic logic behind the government's moves? The answer, as far as I can tell, is that there isn't any. Press German officials to explain why they need to impose austerity on a depressed economy, and you get rationales that don't add up. Point this out, and they come up with different rationales, which also don't add up. Arguing with German deficit hawks feels more than a bit like arguing with US Iraq hawks in 2002: they know what they want to do, and every time you refute one argument, they just come up with another.

Here's roughly how the typical conversation goes (this is based both on my own experience and that of other American economists).

German hawk: "We must cut deficits immediately, because we have to deal with the fiscal burden of an ageing population."

Ugly American: "But that doesn't make sense. Even if you manage to save 80 billion euros – which you won't, because the budget cuts will hurt your economy and reduce revenues – the interest payments on that much debt would be less than a tenth of a per cent of your GDP. So the austerity you're pursuing will threaten economic recovery while doing next to nothing to improve your long-run budget position."

German hawk: "I won't try to argue the arithmetic. You have to take into account the market reaction."

Ugly American: "But how do you know how the market will react? And anyway, why should the market be moved by policies that have almost no impact on the long-run fiscal position?"

German hawk: "You just don't understand our situation."

The key point is that while the advocates of austerity pose as hardheaded realists, doing what has to be done, they can't and won't justify their stance with actual numbers – because the numbers do not, in fact, support their position. Nor can they claim that markets are demanding austerity. On the contrary, the German government remains able to borrow at rock-bottom interest rates.

So the real motivations for their obsession with austerity lie somewhere else. In America, many self-described deficit hawks are hypocrites, pure and simple: they are eager to slash benefits for those in need, but their concerns about red ink vanish when it comes to tax breaks for the wealthy. Thus Senator Ben Nelson, who sanctimoniously declared that we can't afford $77bn in aid to the unemployed, was instrumental in passing the first Bush tax cut, which cost a cool $1.3tn.

German deficit hawkery seems more sincere. But it still has nothing to do with fiscal realism. Instead, it's about moralising and posturing. Germans tend to think of running deficits as being morally wrong, while balancing budgets is considered virtuous, never mind the circumstances or economic logic. "The last few hours were a singular show of strength," declared Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, after a special cabinet meeting agreed on the austerity plan. And showing strength – or what is perceived as strength – is what it's all about.

There will, of course, be a price for this posturing. Only part of that price will fall on Germany: German austerity will worsen the crisis in the euro area, making it that much harder for Spain and other troubled economies to recover. Europe's troubles are also leading to a weak euro, which perversely helps German manufacturing, but also exports the consequences of German austerity to the rest of the world, including the United States.

But German politicians seem determined to prove their strength by imposing suffering – and politicians around the world are following their lead.

How bad will it be? Will it really be 1937 all over again? I don't know. What I do know is that economic policy around the world has taken a major wrong turn, and that the odds of a prolonged slump are rising by the day.

© New York Times 2010
 
As soon as I read "Guardian.co.uk" I didn't need to read any further to know that this would be another left wing biased piece of journalism that has been written with sources used to back their anti coalition agenda.

Both sides of the argument for cuts and tax increases as well as the opposite can easily be supported if you look in the right places. Regardless of what anyone argues they are going ahead and we will just have to wait and see what the end result it.

One thing I have learned is that predictions of what will happen are rarely accurate.


Paul
 
I would agree that Germany, who has followed a consistently disciplined fiscal policy can afford to maintain a looser policy for the time being, and there is no point in cutbacks. Unfortunately the UK and US are not in that situation and have reduced flexibility due to their government's spendthrift ways over the past decade.
 
As soon as I read "Guardian.co.uk" I didn't need to read any further to know that this would be another left wing biased piece of journalism that has been written with sources used to back their anti coalition agenda.
Thus displaying your customary open-mindedness Paul, while accusing the Guardian of bias.

If you are talking about the Krugman piece, he is not exactly some run-of-the mill Grauniad hack

Both sides of the argument for cuts and tax increases as well as the opposite can easily be supported if you look in the right places. Regardless of what anyone argues they are going ahead and we will just have to wait and see what the end result it.

One thing I have learned is that predictions of what will happen are rarely accurate.

Paul

Well as you knew what it was going to say as soon as you read "guardian.co.uk", I suppose you didn't get as far as
How bad will it be? Will it really be 1937 all over again? I don't know.

If you are talking about the pieces on Germany, then I would suggest that the only persons finding left-wing bias in them would be those looking for it.
 
I read the whole article and it was as I said biased to the left as always with the Guardian. The fact that is had some non left bias commentary does not alter the agenda they have.

I remember a similar situation in 1979 /80 when a few Oxbridge economists "proved" that unless Thatcher reversed her policies the country was doomed. It didn't happen and what we are seeing is the same again with everyone on both sides arguing WHY they know best what will happen and the consequences of doing so.

The reality is that no one actually knows what the end result will be and that is what I have been saying which is a bit more open minded than the view you have aligned yourself to (which is summed up in the thread title) as all I am saying is that we just don't know.

I do have my views on what is likely but as with all posts on a bulletin board they are just views.


Paul
 
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................ as all I am saying is that we just don't know...................

Paul,

I agree with that, as in many fields where "experts" have given dire warnings that never come to pass (swine flu being one of the latest examples).

However, we can say that the measures being talked about are the mirror image of those usually put in place by Governments to stimulate economic growth. Thus, if you believe that measures put in place by Governments do affect the economy (and I suppose that'd be an interesting debate in itself :)), then it's reasonable to conclude that the effect will be the mirror image too.

jon
 
History may prove you right, Jon, but I am not sure of your mirror image argument, at this time. My opinion of the New Labour government's policy could not be more pessimistic for the country's future.

This government has to take stern measures and if the UK does not accept them we really are going to screw future generations. Its as simple as that.

Now, Paul's philosophy is that we cannot control the future, with which I agree.

But we have to try when we see the present so badly wrong, or we are irresponsible.
 
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