The Journey from the Basement

[TheBramble]

But the mechanical aspects are useless if you can't control yourself when it comes to implementing the idea behind it. Pulling the trigger, having a clear mind to be able to reason when a trade is on, a chart doesn't show you how to overcome any of this.

I agree. You need both. And if I'm interpreting things correctly, you need a comprehensive understanding of the mechanical before you can let it go and move on to the more advanced aspects.

I think one of the difficulties in this thread is that there are so many at very different levels. All learning to their best abilities - as they go along.

Which is why I totally agree with the oft-quoted suggestion to go back and read this thread from the beginning. It makes more sense each time.

As you assimilate more of what's gone before and been 'missed' you get to assimilate even more. Make sense?

'The More the More'

 

[SOCRATES]

Bracke – petard “a loud discharge of intestinal gas,” - you’ve got caught up in a gale of it of the manipulative nature (a pastime for those who don’t/can’t trade I would think.....)

Socrates – remember this is not a girls’ school so no more name calling please……

And if you won’t post names of those of whom you intended to abuse – why not post some trades or are you above all that…..?.......(excessively qualified........?)

Make a call on any instrument of your choice for closure by the end of tomorrow…..

Prove that your constant petard (some of which I value..) has substance…..

We are not going to do here what YOU want.
We are going to continue with our discussions, that you continually persist in
interrupting as a consequence of not understanding anything. You ought to
go back and read all of the thread so that you are more able to make a post
that is relevant, and not be so impertinent.
(Get the Oxford Dictionary and read the meaning of IMPERTINENT before you
jump to further wrong conclusions)

 

[ford]

Bramble,

I suppose this is where we diverge. I have read SOCRATES posts in other threads and he has said that first the right character must be built before you can progress. As far as the Animal lessons go, there has been nothing regarding mechanical trading at all, it has all be lessons regarding the type of person you need to be in order to deal with the market.

The only time SOCRATES has made posts regarding the mechanical side is when he has been asked a question by someone else.

I've read this thread many times over, but it hasnt done anything to help me deal with the psychological problems of trading. I do not see how I can progress without having the right character, which I feel I do not.

SOCRATES posts have made me realise this, and the smashing of my humanity must continue and then the construction of a new persona for trading begin before I go any further.

 

[SOCRATES]

Bramble,

I suppose this is where we diverge. I have read SOCRATES posts in other threads and he has said that first the right character must be built before you can progress. As far as the Animal lessons go, there has been nothing regarding mechanical trading at all, it has all be lessons regarding the type of person you need to be in order to deal with the market.

The only time SOCRATES has made posts regarding the mechanical side is when he has been asked a question by someone else.

I've read this thread many times over, but it hasnt done anything to help me deal with the psychological problems of trading. I do not see how I can progress without having the right character, which I feel I do not.

SOCRATES posts have made me realise this, and the smashing of my humanity must continue and then the construction of a new persona for trading begin before I go any further.

Right ! This is exactly the problem. The normal you, the person of everyday life is not
properly prepared ~ we could say "armoured" to deal with the information shocks
delivered by the practice of trading.
These information shocks cause damage.
This damage gets worse as time goes by because it is cumulative.
There is no escape from the damage if you utilise your usual persona to
persist in trying to deal with it, and because it is a closed loop situation,
then normally you may recognise the effects to some extent but unable
to deal with them effectively, because this damage develops different
symptoms such as freezing, fear, indecision, remorse, and so on.,
This is part of the defence mecanism that in its perverse logic is doing
its best to save you, but it does not work because as I have explained
previously it is not set up correctly for this purpose but perfectly OK
for everything else.Therefore we must not persist in using it.
But we are i n a closed loop as if we were compelled to carry on using it.
But, when we have the realilsation through enhanced awareness that this
is truly the case, now we are in a position to start doing something
constructive about it. Before we can start to construct, there is alot of work
to be done. That is the preliminary work we are doing here.
And because it is abstract, it seems as if we are either not doing anything
or not enough.
Read all of this very slowly and very deliberately ~ let us see if it sinks in .

 

[Quercus]

I am with Ford on this one, and as I consider myself to be very much a rank amateur retail boy - I have a lot to learn!
Cheers

 

[SOCRATES]

I am with Ford on this one, and as I consider myself to be very much a rank amateur retail boy - I have a lot to learn!
Cheers

Quercus, you hve to do much more than learn.
You have to strive to change yourself,
or,
develop a parallel persona.

Now Quercus, please read the post above very slowly and deliberately.
If there is something that causes you to stumble read it over carefully until
you understand it fully AND ACCEPT IT.
You cannot progress until you have acceptance.
That in part is the object of Animal Lessons.
To heighten your awareness and induce your ability to ACCEPT.
Without ACCEPTANCE there cannot be any PROGRESS.

 

[Max22]

Right ! This is exactly the problem. The normal you, the person of everyday life is not
properly prepared ~ we could say "armoured" to deal with the information shocks
delivered by the practice of trading.
These information shocks cause damage.
This damage gets worse as time goes by because it is cumulative.
There is no escape from the damage if you utilise your usual persona to
persist in trying to deal with it, and because it is a closed loop situation,
then normally you may recognise the effects to some extent but unable
to deal with them effectively, because this damage develops different
symptoms such as freezing, fear, indecision, remorse, and so on.,
This is part of the defence mecanism that in its perverse logic is doing
its best to save you, but it does not work because as I have explained
previously it is not set up correctly for this purpose but perfectly OK
for everything else.Therefore we must not persist in using it.
But we are i n a closed loop as if we were compelled to carry on using it.
But, when we have the realilsation through enhanced awareness that this
is truly the case, now we are in a position to start doing something
constructive about it. Before we can start to construct, there is alot of work
to be done. That is the preliminary work we are doing here.
And because it is abstract, it seems as if we are either not doing anything
or not enough.
Read all of this very slowly and very deliberately ~ let us see if it sinks in .

I have to agree with Socrates on this. When you begin trading and experience these "information shocks" you begin to feel different emotions which are part of the "defense mechanism" to help protect you. However they do just the opposite and hinder your performance. This is unusual in that a naturally protective instinct is ultimatley going to cause you more harm than good. For this reason I now understand why Socrates sais the right character must be developed. In order you you to become a different person while trading so that you can do away with the natural responses to the inforamation shocks and react free from emotions, but with an open mind using observation and forming views instead of opinions. Only after this is done can a person be successfull over the long term. First things First.

 

[SOCRATES]

I have to agree with Socrates on this. When you begin trading and experience these "information shocks" you begin to feel different emotions which are part of the "defense mechanism" to help protect you. However they do just the opposite and hinder your performance. This is unusual in that a naturally protective instinct is ultimatley going to cause you more harm than good. For this reason I now understand why Socrates sais the right character must be developed. In order you you to become a different person while trading so that you can do away with the natural responses to the inforamation shocks and react free from emotions, but with an open mind using observation and forming views instead of opinions. Only after this is done can a person be successfull over the long term. First things First.

Right very good. Right hold it there, just there !
OK, the survival mechanism is connected to the concept of self value.
If we lose our self value in the persona we normally are, we lose the
drive to remain alive. This would be very dangerousin real life, and therefore
the persona that we are knows this and prevents us losing our self
value as it is a very important feature embedded in the defence mechanism,
which is the response arm of the survival mechanism (If someone tries to kill you,
you fight for your life, don't you ? ) However if in an artificial persona constructed
specifically for the purpose of trading in which a survival mechanism is left out of
the equation, the new persona as a consequence of not being hindered by this survival
mechanism, would not have the urge to struggle, but just accept, and be impartial,
which is what is required but the opposite to what everyone thinks, believing its absence
to be a hindreance instead of the asset it really is, but just for the purpose of trading.
Now is this more clearly understood or not ? End of part one.

 

[Max22]

This particular topic is beginning to make a lot of sense to me now.

 

[SOCRATES]

Part two.
The persona above, which is hindered by the survival mechanism, is further hindered by conflicting
signals the survival mechansim recieves. These signals are very varied and do not appear all at once
nor do they appear in sequence, but appear "jumbled up" because the experiences that trigger them are
similar but not identical. The survival mechanism is further confused by all these experiences and "digs in" making it even more difficult to free itself of its responses It is as if it has a safety catch guarding a safety catch guarding a safety catch, like that, so in addition there is this extra pseudo protective linkage
superimposed that has to be dealt with.

 

[SOCRATES]

Bramble,

But the mechanical aspects are useless if you can't control yourself when it comes to implementing the idea behind it. Pulling the trigger, having a clear mind to be able to reason when a trade is on, a chart doesnt show you how to overcome any of this.

I'm far from advanced, I have been trying to run before I can walk. Now considering SOCRATES has many years of experience in the markets and with training people, I think it best that he set down what I get to grips with first rather than myself asking questions in a completely unstructured fashion. I dont pretend to know everything because I dont, but I'm tired of feeling like I'm grasping in the dark.

Fordy, you have to follow this route of developing awareness by having realisations.
When you become more practised you can start to have sequential realisations.
Everything will begin to look different because you will be able as a result of having
increased awareness begin to come to terms impartially with what surrounds you.
you will then be able to go one notch higher and begin to have the realisations you
need which are the building blocks for you to construct the correct persona to deal
with the market and yourself in it. But we have started and we are making progress.
That is why animal lessons are important, they help you at very little emotional cost
to develop properly along the correct route.

 

[a320]

Sorry for the absence.
The animal is widely adopted as a symbol of the astral. Its the astral element in the fool which remained untamed.Because it has not been tamed into ones self , it has an independent existence , a sort of shadow ( Dante meets ) since the astral is the source of emotion and its outer manifestation in movement. This emotion or motion outwards is expressed in the aggressive action of the animal.
On ones path, emotions should become tools for experiencing the world, rather than a source of ensnarement, with the power to delude or flood over the self. By dint of effort one learns gradually to control this inner animal..

I apologise if this breaks the flow..??.

 

[SOCRATES]

No it does not, but this kind of posture in your thinking is not going to make you a consistently succesful
trader. This type of thinking is poetic and beautiful and waxes lyrical about all sorts of things, but not he things you should be paying attention to if you want to succeed. If you are playing about in this mindset
when you face the screen you will get slaughtered. When you finish daydreaming in this fashion and you are ready to take on the challenge of developing as a trader we will continue. Kind Regards.

 

[SOCRATES]

And by the way, A320, Barjon is still waiting for you to clear up his muddled thinking over the index.
This will be a good excercise for you to focus on as a contrast to what you are doing above.Kind Regards Again.

 

[TheBramble]

However if in an artificial persona constructed
specifically for the purpose of trading in which a survival mechanism is left out of
the equation, the new persona as a consequence of not being hindered by this survival
mechanism, would not have the urge to struggle, but just accept, and be impartial,
which is what is required but the opposite to what everyone thinks, believing its absence
to be a hindreance instead of the asset it really is, but just for the purpose of trading.

...or duelling?

This description is so close to that of the state of mind which is ascribed to (successful) duellists of all cultures.

No expectation of surviving - just the will to do your best with no hope of preserving the physical body.

You could liken it to gladiatorial combat, not a fencing class, which is what most people hope it is, but is not !

Quite true. Fencing as a sport is not what it's about. But if you're very life depended upon the outcome - but you didn't care about maintaining your current life - you had nothing to lose - is that the persona we need for trading?

 

[a320]

Right ! This is exactly the problem. The normal you, the person of everyday life is not properly prepared ~ we could say "armoured" to deal with the information shocks ...

This is part of the defence mecanism that in its perverse logic is doing
its best to save you, but it does not work because as I have explained
previously it is not set up correctly for this purpose but perfectly OK
for everything else.Therefore we must not persist in using it.
But we are i n a closed loop as if we were compelled to carry on using it.
But, when we have the realilsation through enhanced awareness that this
is truly the case, now we are in a position to start doing something
constructive about it. .

Isn't my "poetic" worded answer address the deeper undertones of you post??

Oh, The ass is often used by Athona but the in this case it was faire un sabbat by the noise of saba..

I welcome you comments & always appreciate your efforts..

 

[SOCRATES]

...or duelling?

This description is so close to that of the state of mind which is ascribed to (successful) duellists of all cultures.

No expectation of surviving - just the will to do your best with no hope of preserving the physical body.



Quite true. Fencing as a sport is not what it's about. But if you're very life depended upon the outcome - but you didn't care about maintaining your current life - you had nothing to lose - is that the persona we need for trading?

Yes Bramble very similar, only there is no competive drive nor is there any physicality.
By this I mean you are not competing against a competitor or an adversary because that carries risk. This risk is that you can take what your adversary delivers personally, which has an emotion attached to it which disables, or has the potential to disable. And where physicality is concerned this engenders a state of physical alertness which does not
allow relaxation to a degree that permits impartiality in its purest sense, but you are close,
quite close. You have to modify these two ideas to arrive at a paradox in which you can be totally relaxed and impartial yet also totally alert. Its a knife edge.Finding it is the problem and then sustaining it endlessly requires a mindstate that is negated by the ordinary
mindstate required by ordinary life. Therefore it can be discussed but very few can actually
do it for any length of time and just hold it there, on command, at will. This is because the
normal state of mind in ordinary life has different drives and different responses that are
not suitable for this task.

 

[SOCRATES]

Socrates – I know what impertinent means without the help of any dictionary thanks..

As far as I am concerned it is just more petty name-calling from yourself which is regrettable and misplaced……

Is it possible for you to post with deriding/abusing those you feel are less capable than yourself, or do not meet the required level of understanding…..?

There are many quality contributors to this site who can communicate without treating selected fellow traders as untermensch

I suspect that there are a few “animal lessons” that you could learn…..

Very interesting posts though when you stay on topic.......

Good, the term IMPERTINENT describes what is not relevant and is not offensive.
You may not realise this but this topic at any level is not the silly game you think it is.
It is very very serious. You take everything at a very simplistic level and you put connotations
on it that do not exist in this discussion. I have already asked you once to do yourself the
service if to no one else of reading this thread from the very beginning so that you are able
to get a proper grip on the current discussion in its proper context, which you may not appreciate but it happens to be at the highest level of understanding.of this topic so advanced it is not available from books. You misinterpret because you misapply your
perspective of developments here according to own your rule sets. We are in an arena where rigid rule sets do not apply, this is an arena of the intangible, and not the tangible
you wish to force on us. For this reason if you are not capable of following and keeping up as an equal you should strive to do so, or abstain from interrupting. We are all very lenient, you understand because the arenas we inhabit are fierce enough, and therefore have the
capability of being benign, but you must admit, you are seriously trying my patience and
goodwill and that of the other contributors, please.

 

[qaza]

Quercus, you hve to do much more than learn.
You have to strive to change yourself,
or,
develop a parallel persona.

Socrates,

 

[SOCRATES]

Socrates,

Throughout my trading career I have frequently wanted to hire a trading assistant. Somebody who would place the orders, honour the stops , take the profits etc. Really simple stuff ............ No academic qualifications required ! But how long would the assistant have stayed in the job if he or she had second guessed the instructions as frequently as I do ?

Yesterday's posts re a parallel persona are brilliant ............ inspirational in fact !

Thankyou !

I am pleased you have been able to cross your first CG, well done.
Folow my channelling for next stage please.
I will point out by PM relevant section in public domain.