I once was a sucker for punishment, i always knew it was wrong. I thought i was too big for my boots, the 'boot' of the market though, well, it just stamped all over me. It hurts....but i am no longer afraid of the market, i just realise my place. Prophetic and pathetic all rolled into one, only on T2W.
badtrader...your original post was a statement of opinion, not fact.
What percentage of traders starting out lose their accounts? What is the average account size lost? These questions need answering before your "true" statement holds water.
As for being "sad", many "traders" are simply out of their depth. As in any other area of life, being out of ones depth will result in failure. I can think of no other area of life where so many people start out expecting to succeed with almost zero knowledge of how markets operate. There is nothing sad about it...it is life
What percentage of traders starting out lose their accounts? What is the average account size lost? These questions need answering before your "true" statement holds water.
As for being "sad", many "traders" are simply out of their depth. As in any other area of life, being out of ones depth will result in failure. I can think of no other area of life where so many people start out expecting to succeed with almost zero knowledge of how markets operate. There is nothing sad about it...it is life
"out of their depth"
I for one am only too aware of this statement, and I believe most private traders could consider themselves such, given the arena in which we choose to play!
Perhaps the nature of trading attracts a certain type of individual from the outset, and these same individuals are the ones who need to experience the market's humbling before they realise their place in the game.
I have come from a varied but generally well ordered background with self sufficiency being a high priority in my life. I have always been a risk taker, whether it be commercially or socially, what I was not prepared for was my now apparent lack of risk aversity in financial matters. I am not sure if this is down to ego alone, but I know it is playing a part - after all I am male!
My futures a/c is down 80% and has been here twice before too! I've been trying this for two years now, and whilst we're not talking telephone numbers here, the percentage loss is the important factor. Under-capitalisation is another issue which does not help, but there is at least one discipline I have shown and that is in the amount of money I've been prepared to throw at this!
I now know my problems, but have tried numerous ways to overcome them to no avail - I just lapse straight back into them after a brief period of control. I have also been unable to find external sources of help. You see the markets attract people like myself who crave independance, but without the normal societal rules or accepted practices, we find ourselves in a totally uncontrolled environment. Someone mentioned earlier that if you don't lose in the first 6 months then the end result is almost inevitable, I can't comment on this as I've never really been profitable. The profitable days are so few and far between that I can recall them as I type this! One thing I can say is that this has been a death of a thousand cuts, and I'm not sure if I've received 800 or a 1000 yet - I'll let you all know when that happens.
In the meantime I remain fascinated by the perversity of the markets, and lured back to her each and every day I am able to be! Right now I'm reflecting on my own inability to control self, which is what has lead to this position. I have learned much along the way but am not sure if I've really learned the ultimate lesson!
Cheers and I hope this might help someone else!
Quercus
I for one am only too aware of this statement, and I believe most private traders could consider themselves such, given the arena in which we choose to play!
Perhaps the nature of trading attracts a certain type of individual from the outset, and these same individuals are the ones who need to experience the market's humbling before they realise their place in the game.
I have come from a varied but generally well ordered background with self sufficiency being a high priority in my life. I have always been a risk taker, whether it be commercially or socially, what I was not prepared for was my now apparent lack of risk aversity in financial matters. I am not sure if this is down to ego alone, but I know it is playing a part - after all I am male!
My futures a/c is down 80% and has been here twice before too! I've been trying this for two years now, and whilst we're not talking telephone numbers here, the percentage loss is the important factor. Under-capitalisation is another issue which does not help, but there is at least one discipline I have shown and that is in the amount of money I've been prepared to throw at this!
I now know my problems, but have tried numerous ways to overcome them to no avail - I just lapse straight back into them after a brief period of control. I have also been unable to find external sources of help. You see the markets attract people like myself who crave independance, but without the normal societal rules or accepted practices, we find ourselves in a totally uncontrolled environment. Someone mentioned earlier that if you don't lose in the first 6 months then the end result is almost inevitable, I can't comment on this as I've never really been profitable. The profitable days are so few and far between that I can recall them as I type this! One thing I can say is that this has been a death of a thousand cuts, and I'm not sure if I've received 800 or a 1000 yet - I'll let you all know when that happens.
In the meantime I remain fascinated by the perversity of the markets, and lured back to her each and every day I am able to be! Right now I'm reflecting on my own inability to control self, which is what has lead to this position. I have learned much along the way but am not sure if I've really learned the ultimate lesson!
Cheers and I hope this might help someone else!
Quercus
This thread has become very sincere, i hope it stays that way. As some of you know too very well, i myself have been too quick to pounce and rubbish certain statements. Maybe T2W should be about honesty and not self fulfilling arrogance? I think we all try to help in our own little way, at the the end of the day, it's up to the individual to make the dicisions. Just don't ignore the basics....and you may have a fighting chance.
RUDEBOY said:
And all from a few supple words.Started in post 1
Sad but true --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only way to make money in this trading game, is to blow your account or come close to blowing it. Sad but true
badtrader,
I’m going to reiterate what several others have phrased…
Are we ganging up on you yet ? ^:^
It is not necessary to lose a lot of your initial capital to learn the ‘lessons’ and “be a better trader”
It is not necessary to blow up one or more times to learn …
It is possible to lose a lot of your initial capital and NOT learn the ‘lessons’ and “be a better trader”
It is possible to blow up one or more times and NOT learn …
Losing is not the critical variable – it’s certainly not necessary, even though it’s ever present.
Even ‘disipline’ and changing the way one responds mentally to losses is not the full ‘cause’ of becoming a better trader.
It takes a exploring (and surrendering) further into your ‘energetic’ levels of living…
All the best,
zdo
I’m going to reiterate what several others have phrased…
Are we ganging up on you yet ? ^:^
It is not necessary to lose a lot of your initial capital to learn the ‘lessons’ and “be a better trader”
It is not necessary to blow up one or more times to learn …
It is possible to lose a lot of your initial capital and NOT learn the ‘lessons’ and “be a better trader”
It is possible to blow up one or more times and NOT learn …
Losing is not the critical variable – it’s certainly not necessary, even though it’s ever present.
Even ‘disipline’ and changing the way one responds mentally to losses is not the full ‘cause’ of becoming a better trader.
It takes a exploring (and surrendering) further into your ‘energetic’ levels of living…
All the best,
zdo
fxmarkets
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hmm, I think for most? its a lone path you set off with what ever thoughts you may have about what it is you are doing if that even.... it seems that you have to,need to serve your apprentice period, with again just yourself, figuring it out, continually, theres easy access to more info and opinions/views these days too much? so much of it....... lies truth all mixed up, pick the bones out of that lot........ and as been pointed out on another thread, although well intentioned these helpers maybe, (myself included) it can be pollution, or as if the stage of paralysis of analysis isn't enough, its something else that will be listened to or lodge in the back of someones mind maybe.
Its so competitive which is a good thing, well it is how it is..... its been pointed out that the best ? or a good way to make progress is to get time with a trader....... but that is a rare opportunity for a lot /most of people, but makes sense. The other way is to as again has been pointed out, the hard way. which is what most have to or choose to try and go. If your motivation or belief or character, again mentioned is suitable? then the hardway although hard will drive you on. Because you cant stop it. Its leading you... but this control our direction which controls our actions maybe this is what we need to work harder on. Maybe it would be as simple as a momentary pause... if you are still going against what you know you shouldn't really be doing.. "is this what I planed to do?" yes or no.....
Its so competitive which is a good thing, well it is how it is..... its been pointed out that the best ? or a good way to make progress is to get time with a trader....... but that is a rare opportunity for a lot /most of people, but makes sense. The other way is to as again has been pointed out, the hard way. which is what most have to or choose to try and go. If your motivation or belief or character, again mentioned is suitable? then the hardway although hard will drive you on. Because you cant stop it. Its leading you... but this control our direction which controls our actions maybe this is what we need to work harder on. Maybe it would be as simple as a momentary pause... if you are still going against what you know you shouldn't really be doing.. "is this what I planed to do?" yes or no.....
FX. What is an individual supposed to say? Are we all embarking on the most individual trial in life that has ever been concieved? Surely not! Will we all ever agree on the markets? No. So where does that leave an individual? What does the individual need to understand? We are not 'bears', we are not 'bulls'. We all need to understand price. Don't just chase price around like some kind of headless chicken. It does not work. Price anticipation within estimated S/R ranges? The need for stops is a tatic for those who can not afford margin. Maybe there is an arguement for margin and not stops?
lets strip it back to basics.
corporate chappies=well funded, encouraged to swing bat, salaried, possible inside track via customer flow
local traders=funds limited, no salaries, in and out like flint on a postion, last to know on market flow.
so, why be a local own account trader? the bigger you blow out, the biger job you seem to land the next time.
recent well quoted example is darren soards...ex liffe lad who was an ok, bog standard equity options trader; went to one bank and did a titanic on them; took 6 months out and reinvented himself, puffed in a hedge fund and stuffed them so badly, he elected to walk the plank last month before he ended up under blackfriars bridge. yet, i have more confidence in him walking into a lumpy well paid zero downside job within a year than i have in ftse ending up at 6500 in the same time period!!
earlier example is a dutch chappie called michel, did his coco's on the liffe a decade ago, dynergy (so bad infact one daily trading chart sell off point was known as michel's peak cos that where he went massively long!), shell, deutsche...all big numbers too in excess of 10 bar every time. perfect hedge fund material, just you wait.
so, in a nutshell, forget trading ethics and always making money, if you want to be someone in the trading world, make sure ur p/l goes down quicker than the belgrano and you're guaranteeing a job for life.....ho hum
corporate chappies=well funded, encouraged to swing bat, salaried, possible inside track via customer flow
local traders=funds limited, no salaries, in and out like flint on a postion, last to know on market flow.
so, why be a local own account trader? the bigger you blow out, the biger job you seem to land the next time.
recent well quoted example is darren soards...ex liffe lad who was an ok, bog standard equity options trader; went to one bank and did a titanic on them; took 6 months out and reinvented himself, puffed in a hedge fund and stuffed them so badly, he elected to walk the plank last month before he ended up under blackfriars bridge. yet, i have more confidence in him walking into a lumpy well paid zero downside job within a year than i have in ftse ending up at 6500 in the same time period!!
earlier example is a dutch chappie called michel, did his coco's on the liffe a decade ago, dynergy (so bad infact one daily trading chart sell off point was known as michel's peak cos that where he went massively long!), shell, deutsche...all big numbers too in excess of 10 bar every time. perfect hedge fund material, just you wait.
so, in a nutshell, forget trading ethics and always making money, if you want to be someone in the trading world, make sure ur p/l goes down quicker than the belgrano and you're guaranteeing a job for life.....ho hum
Nick Leeson's official trading strategy was to take advantage of temporary price differences between the SIMEX and OSE Nikkei. This arbitrage, which Barings called 'switching
Leeson was to buy the cheaper contract and to sell simultaneously the more expensive one, reversing the trade when the price difference had narrowed or disappeared. This kind of arbitrage activity has little market risk because positions are always matched.
But he broke his own rules then the horrific losses accrued by Nick Leeson were due to his financial gambling, as he placed his trades based upon his emotions rather than by taking calculated risks.lesson to be learned
Leeson was to buy the cheaper contract and to sell simultaneously the more expensive one, reversing the trade when the price difference had narrowed or disappeared. This kind of arbitrage activity has little market risk because positions are always matched.
But he broke his own rules then the horrific losses accrued by Nick Leeson were due to his financial gambling, as he placed his trades based upon his emotions rather than by taking calculated risks.lesson to be learned
commanderco
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Quercus said:"out of their depth"
I for one am only too aware of this statement, and I believe most private traders could consider themselves such, given the arena in which we choose to play!
Perhaps the nature of trading attracts a certain type of individual from the outset, and these same individuals are the ones who need to experience the market's humbling before they realise their place in the game.
I have come from a varied but generally well ordered background with self sufficiency being a high priority in my life. I have always been a risk taker, whether it be commercially or socially, what I was not prepared for was my now apparent lack of risk aversity in financial matters. I am not sure if this is down to ego alone, but I know it is playing a part - after all I am male!
My futures a/c is down 80% and has been here twice before too! I've been trying this for two years now, and whilst we're not talking telephone numbers here, the percentage loss is the important factor. Under-capitalisation is another issue which does not help, but there is at least one discipline I have shown and that is in the amount of money I've been prepared to throw at this!
I now know my problems, but have tried numerous ways to overcome them to no avail - I just lapse straight back into them after a brief period of control. I have also been unable to find external sources of help. You see the markets attract people like myself who crave independance, but without the normal societal rules or accepted practices, we find ourselves in a totally uncontrolled environment. Someone mentioned earlier that if you don't lose in the first 6 months then the end result is almost inevitable, I can't comment on this as I've never really been profitable. The profitable days are so few and far between that I can recall them as I type this! One thing I can say is that this has been a death of a thousand cuts, and I'm not sure if I've received 800 or a 1000 yet - I'll let you all know when that happens.
In the meantime I remain fascinated by the perversity of the markets, and lured back to her each and every day I am able to be! Right now I'm reflecting on my own inability to control self, which is what has lead to this position. I have learned much along the way but am not sure if I've really learned the ultimate lesson!
Cheers and I hope this might help someone else!
Quercus
Quercus,
As you know there are only 4 things in making futures work.
1 Trade the right instrument.
2 % A ( % accuracy)
3 W/L ( average win / average loss)
4 Volume ( number of lots traded)
There are many other things; broker, commissions, time frames etc, but the above 4
are the key focus and it is suprising just how easy it is to take your eye from the ball.
Ask a bunch of Kiwis about what they want from a tri nations match ... you will get a variation
of answers.
Me, all I want at a minimum is for the AB´s to score more points than the other buggers.
I do not really care who the other buggers are... Wallis or SA
I would prefer the AB´s to mentally destroy the other buggers and secure lots of bonus points to ensure the outcome of the tri nation series, but life is not perfect and so it is mopre important to secure the win than wander through the game with your head in the clouds.
Sad but true, but the other buggers are trying to do more or less the same as the AB´s and so they need to be everything that they can be plus be very consistent.
In other words the AB´s need to play at a level beyond the OB´s
So, what does all this rambling mean.
It means that I want the AB´s to have a high % A and it would be just great if their W / L ratio
was high, but they must never never go chasing W / L at the expense of % A.
Enough rugby, it is now summer in the real world of rugby, so back to your trading.
Where does this leave your account?
Go back to the first 4 principals and sick to them, dont go chasing points like a mad dog after a stick that is purely recreactional.
Get your % A up first with a liveable W/ L and start increasing your lots traded. you can tune your W /L later on.
And keep your commissions down. $3.80 round trip is as high as you go.
Yes yes, you guess correctly. I am a Kiwi living in beautiful Buenos Aires.
Half way between GMT & CST.
Always remember never give up the ultimate goal, but give up your negative habits right now and replace them with learned positive habits tomorrow
Goodluck
barjon
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Having spent a happy hour or so editing the thread, I finally got round to reading it and thought I'd add my two eurosworth.
I think it's fair to say that all experience, whether losing or winning, helps make one a better trader if it is properly analysed. Losses are painful and come into sharper focus than wins with the result that, for me anyway, I spend much more time analysing why a trade failed than analysing why a trade succeeded. Thus, aside from money management lessons, I've learned more from near account blowing times than from riding high times.
Perhaps I should have given equal weight to both sides.
good trading
jon
I think it's fair to say that all experience, whether losing or winning, helps make one a better trader if it is properly analysed. Losses are painful and come into sharper focus than wins with the result that, for me anyway, I spend much more time analysing why a trade failed than analysing why a trade succeeded. Thus, aside from money management lessons, I've learned more from near account blowing times than from riding high times.
Perhaps I should have given equal weight to both sides.
good trading
jon
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The only reason I have learnt respect for the markets is......... I've nearly blown away my account 3 times! But hey, perhaps I lacked discipline more than the normal person?
