Mathemagician
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Your pricing is way too low for this to be attractive to anyone who values his time/effort/insight/results.
jj
jj
Payment for Points, New way to pay for Systems
- Thread starter SuddenDeath
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SuddenDeath
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profits from generating good signals will be huge
Mathemagician, thats £175 for 350 points, say you have 500 subscribers, £175*500 = £87,500 (*1.9835 = $ 173,556 since i think you are in USA)
I did put the 50p/point figure out only as an example
as a vendor you know that you will recieve £87,500 if ftse hits 6350 you can also use this fact to make money.
Mathemagician, thats £175 for 350 points, say you have 500 subscribers, £175*500 = £87,500 (*1.9835 = $ 173,556 since i think you are in USA)
I did put the 50p/point figure out only as an example
as a vendor you know that you will recieve £87,500 if ftse hits 6350 you can also use this fact to make money.
Mathemagician
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I reiterate, your pricing is way too low.
jj
jj
SuddenDeath
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the price will be determined by the market
I put the 50p/point only as an example
post #20 "or any figure you can think of"
I put the 50p/point only as an example
post #20 "or any figure you can think of"
Mathemagician
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CTAs have been operating this way for decades. I agree that it's a good arrangement and fair to both the client and the advisor.
jj
jj
Pat494
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If the client complains the vendors usually use the argument that the client isn't using the software properly and wriggle out of an awkward situation. Also every vendor I have ever come across has the usual caveats ( disclaimers ) so that they cant be sued.
Lets face it most are just platforms for drawing pretty lines
Lets face it most are just platforms for drawing pretty lines
Mathemagician
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FXiGoR
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I red over some of the postings and sujestions how to charge someone...
You need to understand and realize that there is far more out there then what you trade personally.
ex. I also give systems and signals on the forex and the bund (fgbl). Some people trade this with normall contracts but some people trade this with brokers that give the opportunity to trade forex and bund with mini or micro contracts.
That means where someone is making for ex. 1000$ at the end of the month with normall contracts someone else made 10$ with micro contracts.
How can you charge that person per point or pip you made?...
If you charge the person that made a normall 1000$ the person who only made 10$ would have to pay an amount of money that would nearly cost him half of his account balance because of the very small account he trades of.
For all the same someone else trades 10 contracts per trade and makes 10times as much money. How is the vendor going to know this.
For all the same someone is using those signals to manage an account for severall people and is charging them a commission. Where the subscription he has to pay is an absolute joke compared whit what he receives in commission from the clients in his managed account...
An other remark was placing vendors in some sort of a competion so people can compare the results or to evaluate a vendor.
Again a bit the same problem. People think only about the way they trade or the product they trade.
There are vendors that give signals on ftse but also on daxxetra or ES or bund or forex or stocks or options or YM or commoditys or gold or oil etc etc... With each its own public, with each its own risk and reward. With each its nescessary minimum account size or margins with each its value per tick or point and starting capital rquired etc etc...
If you ask 10 children how to evaluate a car they will all agree that speed is most important. So ferrari or porsche is the best car in their point of vieuw.
If you are an adult you know that there is more then speed. That you buy a car according you family situation, your budget, your needs and somewhere last in row your dreams.
If you ask 10 amateurs to evaluate a system they all gonna agree that the system with the biggest profit is the best or the one to folow. They are going to look to the 1 who is on top or in top 5 and forget about the other vendors.
The result will be some sort of a ..the winner takes it all...
If you ask 10 professional traders how to evaluate a system they know that overal profit does not proof A THING.
Some of the initial elements that will deffenatly influence them...
- spread of the instrument that is traded
- liquidity of the instrument that is traded.
- the time zone of the instrument traded compared to the time zone where one lives in.
(I have the feeling that most people who reacted here in this topic are from the US but you need to realize that there is a big majority of traders that lives in other continents).
- reliable broker that offer that instrument ( again the forex is by far the biggest market that is traded but there are no rules no reglemantations in forex-- no NFA etc...in forex every 6 months a spread broker goes bust).
- what is the minimum account size that a reliable broker is charging.
- what is the margin that they ask to trade that instrument.
- does the broker have a thelephonic future desk that supports that instrument in case the internet connection fails.
Some technical aspects that wil deffenatly influance them...
- what is the MaxDD that happend to make that overal result (sterling ratio)
- how long does the system runs already.
- how many consecutive losses can one expect.
- what is the time frame to trade from.
- does one need to sit all day long in front of his pc or does have one has still a live beside trading.
- what is the average loosing trade.
- How big is the stoploss that one needs to place.
- what is the avg. winn/loss ratio.
- what is the positive hitratio.
- what is the money management that they offer
- in short what are all the elements that make a system psychologicly possible to trade over a long period of time ( not a few weeks but for severall years).
As said the vast majority of amateur traders are not going to ask these questions and are only going to look to the one who is the top of the ranking list.
Conclusion: inform yourself. If something is to good to be true..yep. Look for a vendor with total transparancy. Don't let your greed take over your logics...etc..etc
Bottom conclusion one can make is...we all drank a gin-fizz..we all took a pis s and everything stayed as it is....
regards..iGoR
You need to understand and realize that there is far more out there then what you trade personally.
ex. I also give systems and signals on the forex and the bund (fgbl). Some people trade this with normall contracts but some people trade this with brokers that give the opportunity to trade forex and bund with mini or micro contracts.
That means where someone is making for ex. 1000$ at the end of the month with normall contracts someone else made 10$ with micro contracts.
How can you charge that person per point or pip you made?...
If you charge the person that made a normall 1000$ the person who only made 10$ would have to pay an amount of money that would nearly cost him half of his account balance because of the very small account he trades of.
For all the same someone else trades 10 contracts per trade and makes 10times as much money. How is the vendor going to know this.
For all the same someone is using those signals to manage an account for severall people and is charging them a commission. Where the subscription he has to pay is an absolute joke compared whit what he receives in commission from the clients in his managed account...
An other remark was placing vendors in some sort of a competion so people can compare the results or to evaluate a vendor.
Again a bit the same problem. People think only about the way they trade or the product they trade.
There are vendors that give signals on ftse but also on daxxetra or ES or bund or forex or stocks or options or YM or commoditys or gold or oil etc etc... With each its own public, with each its own risk and reward. With each its nescessary minimum account size or margins with each its value per tick or point and starting capital rquired etc etc...
If you ask 10 children how to evaluate a car they will all agree that speed is most important. So ferrari or porsche is the best car in their point of vieuw.
If you are an adult you know that there is more then speed. That you buy a car according you family situation, your budget, your needs and somewhere last in row your dreams.
If you ask 10 amateurs to evaluate a system they all gonna agree that the system with the biggest profit is the best or the one to folow. They are going to look to the 1 who is on top or in top 5 and forget about the other vendors.
The result will be some sort of a ..the winner takes it all...
If you ask 10 professional traders how to evaluate a system they know that overal profit does not proof A THING.
Some of the initial elements that will deffenatly influence them...
- spread of the instrument that is traded
- liquidity of the instrument that is traded.
- the time zone of the instrument traded compared to the time zone where one lives in.
(I have the feeling that most people who reacted here in this topic are from the US but you need to realize that there is a big majority of traders that lives in other continents).
- reliable broker that offer that instrument ( again the forex is by far the biggest market that is traded but there are no rules no reglemantations in forex-- no NFA etc...in forex every 6 months a spread broker goes bust).
- what is the minimum account size that a reliable broker is charging.
- what is the margin that they ask to trade that instrument.
- does the broker have a thelephonic future desk that supports that instrument in case the internet connection fails.
Some technical aspects that wil deffenatly influance them...
- what is the MaxDD that happend to make that overal result (sterling ratio)
- how long does the system runs already.
- how many consecutive losses can one expect.
- what is the time frame to trade from.
- does one need to sit all day long in front of his pc or does have one has still a live beside trading.
- what is the average loosing trade.
- How big is the stoploss that one needs to place.
- what is the avg. winn/loss ratio.
- what is the positive hitratio.
- what is the money management that they offer
- in short what are all the elements that make a system psychologicly possible to trade over a long period of time ( not a few weeks but for severall years).
As said the vast majority of amateur traders are not going to ask these questions and are only going to look to the one who is the top of the ranking list.
Conclusion: inform yourself. If something is to good to be true..yep. Look for a vendor with total transparancy. Don't let your greed take over your logics...etc..etc
Bottom conclusion one can make is...we all drank a gin-fizz..we all took a pis s and everything stayed as it is....
regards..iGoR
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nine
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I traded systems for a few years. EOD using tradestation. The system performance was not dissimilar to the theoretical performance and within the range once you allowed slippage and commission. I traded every signal exactly but the broker I was using had plenty of other customers who didn't.
That was also the experience of my local friend who decided to do a system (incl the software and the data feed, same as he himself used) + training package. A very small number of his customers did what he did - trade every signal by the book. The rest underperformed.
I'm not a vendor. I strongly dislike some vendors. But the facts are the facts - most users fail the discipline test.
brutusdog
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as do most traders in general and in reality thats where the much quoted "95%"comes from not the methods used.
SuddenDeath
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How many points does system make and how much are they charging
I started a thread "payment for points" new way to pay for systems, take the risk out of buying the system buy asking them how much they charge for each point they can make you. lets say they send you a trade which makes 500pts on Dow you send them £1000, this is just example, they will be happy to do this if they are genuine. since they will make more money over long term.
I started a thread "payment for points" new way to pay for systems, take the risk out of buying the system buy asking them how much they charge for each point they can make you. lets say they send you a trade which makes 500pts on Dow you send them £1000, this is just example, they will be happy to do this if they are genuine. since they will make more money over long term.
SuddenDeath
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When you buy a system you pay for the potential Points in the system....
Dear R Gupta
Systems are generally "sold as seen" with no comebacks, if you hire a car and you pay a year in advance with no refund you have serious risk if you pay for it on a daily basis you only risk one days rental .you are essentially buying the services the car provides when it fails stop paying the daily charge and they take it away,
Genuine system sellers will prefer this since it drives out the fraudsters. Fraudsters won’t get a penny unless system is delivering.
Thanks for reading and replying to my post
Also good traders make between 1million to 20million+ why would someone with a decent system waste time selling it to make few grand?
SD
Dear R Gupta
Systems are generally "sold as seen" with no comebacks, if you hire a car and you pay a year in advance with no refund you have serious risk if you pay for it on a daily basis you only risk one days rental .you are essentially buying the services the car provides when it fails stop paying the daily charge and they take it away,
Genuine system sellers will prefer this since it drives out the fraudsters. Fraudsters won’t get a penny unless system is delivering.
Thanks for reading and replying to my post
Also good traders make between 1million to 20million+ why would someone with a decent system waste time selling it to make few grand?
SD
nine
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SD,
One person I know sells systems because he doesn't / can't trade but really enjoys creating systems.
A different person sells a system (with software) and training because he got to feeling like he was a hermit trading. Sometimes the frustration of buyers failing to succeed makes him want to be a hermit again (his system is actually very sound).
One person I know sells systems because he doesn't / can't trade but really enjoys creating systems.
A different person sells a system (with software) and training because he got to feeling like he was a hermit trading. Sometimes the frustration of buyers failing to succeed makes him want to be a hermit again (his system is actually very sound).
SuddenDeath
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Fair Point, but how large a group would that be ?
Then he would be a genuine system seller and would be benefitted by the payment for points system.
SD
Then he would be a genuine system seller and would be benefitted by the payment for points system.
SD
nine
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No. I write software for fun and let people have it free (for Sierra Chart).
Three times I have done special jobs for people for a nominal fee.
Two out of three stiffed me (although, with the second one, I did get the satisfaction of knowing that it would stop working in a month). If you don't get paid up front in this game you won't get paid at all. Remember that most people who buy systems fail --- and my guess is that over 50% of the time its not the system that's the problem but they think it is.
Three times I have done special jobs for people for a nominal fee.
Two out of three stiffed me (although, with the second one, I did get the satisfaction of knowing that it would stop working in a month). If you don't get paid up front in this game you won't get paid at all. Remember that most people who buy systems fail --- and my guess is that over 50% of the time its not the system that's the problem but they think it is.
hot_property
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SD has some valid points, the best systems like the 'Black Box' Theory are never know as they would finish the market, since their complex calculations CAN predict the future price movement. Most systems have too much drawdown and this is what the market needs, it needs to be fed, the drawdowns on the systems must somehow be limited since Logarithmic calculations show how the market is purposely put up then slammed down, repeatedly during the day. The DOW is very manipulated due to its high liquidity, the candles it forms are so complex I have given them their own classifications as they do not appear in any text books...
Anyway, some systems are highly publicized to attract customers and are backed with hard selling tactics but there is limited regulation to stop people getting ripped off, similar to estate agents when then sell a property to a friend thats already 'on the books'
The people selling the systems are the only ones that make money, similar to buying a book on Technical Analysis, all the books contain the same rubbish, some are printed in colour some are not, the author usually has 20 years of Fund Management exp. etc etc. YAWN
I believe the people that do sell systems are masking something and usually do not even trade the system themselves which is puzzling! Testing something on a spreadsheet and real life is completely different kettle of fish!
Also, similar to what SD says if people provide a signal and they are sure, why don't they handle the money and trade for you simultaneously taking commission? setup an organisation do it right! I am not talking about unit trusts etc I am talking about 400% gains per year with a co-op spreadbetting account which CAN be requested with power of attorney, because thats what the systems illustrate! I am sure people that develop systems would support this as they know the truth.
Thank you and end of business...
Anyway, some systems are highly publicized to attract customers and are backed with hard selling tactics but there is limited regulation to stop people getting ripped off, similar to estate agents when then sell a property to a friend thats already 'on the books'
The people selling the systems are the only ones that make money, similar to buying a book on Technical Analysis, all the books contain the same rubbish, some are printed in colour some are not, the author usually has 20 years of Fund Management exp. etc etc. YAWN
I believe the people that do sell systems are masking something and usually do not even trade the system themselves which is puzzling! Testing something on a spreadsheet and real life is completely different kettle of fish!
Also, similar to what SD says if people provide a signal and they are sure, why don't they handle the money and trade for you simultaneously taking commission? setup an organisation do it right! I am not talking about unit trusts etc I am talking about 400% gains per year with a co-op spreadbetting account which CAN be requested with power of attorney, because thats what the systems illustrate! I am sure people that develop systems would support this as they know the truth.
Thank you and end of business...
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