Mr. Charts
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Also my opinion of the situation, although in my experience NITE fakes a lot.
When you have traded Nasdaq for a few years, rather than for just a few months you learn these things.
Oatman - MMs don't have to show their true size so often show 100 only.
When you have traded Nasdaq for a few years, rather than for just a few months you learn these things.
Oatman - MMs don't have to show their true size so often show 100 only.
Trader333
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The MM only have to display a size of 1 which represents 100 shares. They all fiddle how much they really want to trade and so taking any notice of the size is pointless unless the size is unusual in which case take the opposite view of what it appears to say. For example, if Nite is sat on the inside Bid with a size of 500 then assume he wants to sell and not buy as this size is there just to create and image of something that is not real. Also if Nite is sat on the inside Bid with a size of 1 and you see the T&S going red with hundreds or thousands of shares being traded and Nite just sits there then you can be sure he is accumulating stock at this price to unload at a higher price later. It is all imagery and I have very much simplified how I use Level II nowdays which I find to be effective for my own style of trading.
Paul
Paul
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Naz
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mm dont have to show their true size as Richard says. The story is everything.
GVRC is the secondary axe.Its their move in unison that matters.
My software only allows me to colour one participant in a different colour otherwise i'd have both of them coloured in.
GVRC is the secondary axe.Its their move in unison that matters.
My software only allows me to colour one participant in a different colour otherwise i'd have both of them coloured in.
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Naz
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If there is a rule that says a mm can show 100 and deal in any amount then he's just refreshing his quote.Thats what happens.
Just because the crowd have been led to believe that large order size means it should go in that direction means nothing.
Watch the action on the screen that'll tell you who's moving the stock.Thats how i knew NITE and GVRC were the primary and secondary axe.
Just because the crowd have been led to believe that large order size means it should go in that direction means nothing.
Watch the action on the screen that'll tell you who's moving the stock.Thats how i knew NITE and GVRC were the primary and secondary axe.
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Naz
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All that happened was that in that trade the primary and secondary axe were causing the stock to stall.They WERE the resistance.
In that case it took three minutes for the stock to move, in others its much,much quicker.I dont tend to look at how much dollar advantage i get, only that by reading the underlying story i'll beat the crowd into the move,even better if i know that any move that could happen will bring in t/a traders looking for a particular set up.
I didn't take this trade,but here is a demonstration example from today.
The stock moves through the whole number,but you know there's a fib level sitting above it.All the t/a guys should know that its there.When the stock fails on the level 2 screen there's your entry.Chart 1.
The stock collapses and the move is complete when the level 2 story changes at the next whole number,chart 2 and you've got your dollar run.Job done.
As a 1000 share day trader you only need one of those runs and you've made $1000.The key for me is to sit, watch, wait then pounce.The biggest problem is within yourself.
In that case it took three minutes for the stock to move, in others its much,much quicker.I dont tend to look at how much dollar advantage i get, only that by reading the underlying story i'll beat the crowd into the move,even better if i know that any move that could happen will bring in t/a traders looking for a particular set up.
I didn't take this trade,but here is a demonstration example from today.
The stock moves through the whole number,but you know there's a fib level sitting above it.All the t/a guys should know that its there.When the stock fails on the level 2 screen there's your entry.Chart 1.
The stock collapses and the move is complete when the level 2 story changes at the next whole number,chart 2 and you've got your dollar run.Job done.
As a 1000 share day trader you only need one of those runs and you've made $1000.The key for me is to sit, watch, wait then pounce.The biggest problem is within yourself.
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Naz
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No It can change.The trick is to be good a reading the screen and notice when another mm is working the stock more than the others.
Just like to say thanks for some of the nice e mails i've received especially from outside the UK,including the US.
T2W is certainly getting international.
For anyone new a lot of people mention that they have a go at looking at the market chat thread,which was an early thread on the site that i started and many of us contributed to.
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=3530
Just like to say thanks for some of the nice e mails i've received especially from outside the UK,including the US.
T2W is certainly getting international.
For anyone new a lot of people mention that they have a go at looking at the market chat thread,which was an early thread on the site that i started and many of us contributed to.
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=3530
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T
triplepack
Hi Naz ,
I thought I'd follow the ax on a stock this evening and I found OVTI at its lows for the day and figured out gvrc and schb where the main mm's. It wasnt a big move but the ax did show itself.
Interesting to see as you described it that they were acting as support for most of the past couple of hours,
Schb more than Gvrc. Not much interest from them on the ask but they were pretty much always on the inside bid, except for Brut Brtd etc., and who knows they may have been in disguise working the stock incognito via these ECNs.
However , as the price moved in its range and came to the low point at 16.05 they both dissappeared of the screen to 15.97 and 15.90. Down went the price and loads of volatility came into play various mm's playing their hands and also curiously Brut dropped and went quiet. Incidentally both schb and grvc went inside ask . ( I assume putting downwards pressure just for good measure) It was fascinating to see this happen.
But the actual movement and positioning only happened onceduring this time as the support was only broken once. I suppose this is what people see when monitoring Lev 2 and not much info is coming out of it.
You have to monitor for a time and then you can then see at decision times/points their influence coming into play , most of the time subtly, but then as obvious as the nose on your face. Then the move happens.
Brut seems to be a very big ECN player where can I view their book like you can Island ?Indeed is it possible ?
Cheers
Triplepack
P.S. No, I dont think level 2 is dead.
I thought I'd follow the ax on a stock this evening and I found OVTI at its lows for the day and figured out gvrc and schb where the main mm's. It wasnt a big move but the ax did show itself.
Interesting to see as you described it that they were acting as support for most of the past couple of hours,
Schb more than Gvrc. Not much interest from them on the ask but they were pretty much always on the inside bid, except for Brut Brtd etc., and who knows they may have been in disguise working the stock incognito via these ECNs.
However , as the price moved in its range and came to the low point at 16.05 they both dissappeared of the screen to 15.97 and 15.90. Down went the price and loads of volatility came into play various mm's playing their hands and also curiously Brut dropped and went quiet. Incidentally both schb and grvc went inside ask . ( I assume putting downwards pressure just for good measure) It was fascinating to see this happen.
But the actual movement and positioning only happened onceduring this time as the support was only broken once. I suppose this is what people see when monitoring Lev 2 and not much info is coming out of it.
You have to monitor for a time and then you can then see at decision times/points their influence coming into play , most of the time subtly, but then as obvious as the nose on your face. Then the move happens.
Brut seems to be a very big ECN player where can I view their book like you can Island ?Indeed is it possible ?
Cheers
Triplepack
P.S. No, I dont think level 2 is dead.
Sirlosealot
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I’m trying to learn Level 2. Unfortunately I have not had time enough yet to seriously sit down for hours working it out but my initial impressions are that its certainly worth pursuing.
However as far as I can see, finding the Ax is getting more and more difficult. Old level 2 info on the internet of a year or more ago makes out that all you need to do is look and see which MM is regularly making the best bid or ask. However MMs can and do hide their intentions by using the following:
1 Using SIZE which as far as I can see was set up especially for this purpose
2 Hiding orders completely so they do not appear on Level 2. NASDAQ advertises “Total View” as showing the full market depth but I have not really understood exactly how full full is! Total View is certainly difficult to read once a stock gets busy and does not show individual hidden orders even if it does show the totals
3 Using other ECNs such as Island and Archipelago
In my very limited experience of trying out Level 2, I would agree with Trader333 (if I’ve interpreted his post correctly) that when its easy to spot the Ax, nowadays it means the Ax is about to pull a fast one.
Triplepack
I was interested in your post where you said that you managed to find an Ax and track him for some time. As I said I have not had time yet to really put in any consistent hours yet but in my brief forays into Level 2 watching I have not had much luck finding an Ax that has not been faking.
My question to any of the Level 2 experts here is why would an Ax ever want to declare his hand in the old way of openly supporting a price, given that he can hide his intentions so easily? If there is no commercial reason do you think that visible Axs will get rarer and rarer as more and more Day Traders find out about them and start shadowing them and forcing the price away from the levels they want to buy or sell?
However as far as I can see, finding the Ax is getting more and more difficult. Old level 2 info on the internet of a year or more ago makes out that all you need to do is look and see which MM is regularly making the best bid or ask. However MMs can and do hide their intentions by using the following:
1 Using SIZE which as far as I can see was set up especially for this purpose
2 Hiding orders completely so they do not appear on Level 2. NASDAQ advertises “Total View” as showing the full market depth but I have not really understood exactly how full full is! Total View is certainly difficult to read once a stock gets busy and does not show individual hidden orders even if it does show the totals
3 Using other ECNs such as Island and Archipelago
In my very limited experience of trying out Level 2, I would agree with Trader333 (if I’ve interpreted his post correctly) that when its easy to spot the Ax, nowadays it means the Ax is about to pull a fast one.
Triplepack
I was interested in your post where you said that you managed to find an Ax and track him for some time. As I said I have not had time yet to really put in any consistent hours yet but in my brief forays into Level 2 watching I have not had much luck finding an Ax that has not been faking.
My question to any of the Level 2 experts here is why would an Ax ever want to declare his hand in the old way of openly supporting a price, given that he can hide his intentions so easily? If there is no commercial reason do you think that visible Axs will get rarer and rarer as more and more Day Traders find out about them and start shadowing them and forcing the price away from the levels they want to buy or sell?
