IGindex requoted already closed trade?!

[dmytro]

IG can claim any price they quote as erroneus as all their prices
are indicative and you agree to trade at their prices. :innocent:

Gedward, I think this would be the case at the end of the day. All right, to sum up, I think I would not stand a chance to claim money back due to the fact what Gedward and Tar mentioned before, IG can claim any price quote as erroneous after all and call it back.
But when exactly is SB quote 'erroneous', I frankly do not know. I just guess its good for them as they can effectively call back their mispriced bids and asks. But again, its the game of betting after all...

 

[gle101]

Gle, Tar has indeed got a valid point, but: I was not traded FTSE future, I was spreadbetting out of market hours FTSE 100, regardless the methodology they use for pricing it after official market closes.
Now, dont want to sound like a nerd, but lets remind ourselves the terminology here. I was spreadBETTING, not TRADING. The concept of fair value is IMO questionable in BETTING. The price quotes that SB company gives you are in a sense ODDS. I frequently saw these quotes 'overrun' slighthly the market price of the instrument (comparing with very reliable data source) when market moved quickly so you in a sense get worse price than you would get otherwise in the underlying market. And this is fine, because we are BETTING, not TRADING. We can pretend that we trade using SB platform, but if it was trading, you would have to pay capital gain TAX, would you not?
So in conclusion, we can all agree that SB quotes are slightly (or bit more at times off market price of the underlying.
My question is, WHAT is a border (in point terms) between when they quote their price off market price and get away with it and the price that you can declare using your futures graph as not enough correlated with market price (and perhaps asking the portion of money back in case of losing trade)? BTW appreciate all the points raised here. D.

Yes I know you were spread betting. The MiFID clearly states that the price quotes on instruments of such markets as SB must reflect the movement that of the underlying asset. Not necessary the same figures, but they must move in correlation with each other. If the market is closed, the SB instrument must still move in correlation to the instruments that is the base for that specific SB instrument.

I feel that the SB product should not be off by more than a point to that of the underlying asset.

 

[gle101]

Gedward, I think this would be the case at the end of the day. All right, to sum up, I think I would not stand a chance to claim money back due to the fact what Gedward and Tar mentioned before, IG can claim any price quote as erroneous after all and call it back.
But when exactly is SB quote 'erroneous', I frankly do not know. I just guess its good for them as they can effectively call back their mispriced bids and asks. But again, its the game of betting after all...

Sorry, I thought you went into this trade on a normal functioning SB market. I think you just were unlucky that the trade ended up being reverted by the SB. This is happening at the real market as well, they had to correct some of the crazy trades on the Nasdaq at the end of the trading day.

 

[Scalp123]

Yes I know you were spread betting. The MiFID clearly states that the price quotes on instruments of such markets as SB must reflect the movement that of the underlying asset. Not necessary the same figures, but they must move in correlation with each other. If the market is closed, the SB instrument must still move in correlation to the instruments that is the base for that specific SB instrument.

I feel that the SB product should not be off by more than a point to that of the underlying asset.

If spread betting companies quoted prices that reflected anything else but the underlying market price, then we could all get DMA and arb off them all day long and make an absolute fortune with no risk (if only). They quote the FTSE when the cash market is shut, but they just use the FTSE futures price +/- any fair value which can easily be worked out by anyone else so it would be difficult to make up. I think clearly the price of the FTSE futures did not reach anywhere near those levels, so if you had been stopped out at 4400 you could ring them up and they would have to give your money back ( you'd think) so they will clearly want to take money off people who profited from those bum prices.

It is all too easy to blame SB companies (sometimes justified) when in reality it is REALLY difficult to make money trading on your own. Markets are ruthless and they will chew you up and spit you out if you are not on the ball 100% of the time.

 

[gle101]

If spread betting companies quoted prices that reflected anything else but the underlying market price, then we could all get DMA and arb off them all day long and make an absolute fortune with no risk (if only). They quote the FTSE when the cash market is shut, but they just use the FTSE futures price +/- any fair value which can easily be worked out by anyone else so it would be difficult to make up. I think clearly the price of the FTSE futures did not reach anywhere near those levels, so if you had been stopped out at 4400 you could ring them up and they would have to give your money back ( you'd think) so they will clearly want to take money off people who profited from those bum prices.

It is all too easy to blame SB companies (sometimes justified) when in reality it is REALLY difficult to make money trading on your own. Markets are ruthless and they will chew you up and spit you out if you are not on the ball 100% of the time.

Yes correctly. A good first post.

 

[gedward3]

Check for example Capitalspreads Ftse futures charts it shows 4400 , did futures went down that much , no , it is a glitch only , it is not about FTSE cash or FTSE futures , the error was on all FTSE products ....

Glitch my ar$e. Futures brokerages and SB companies manage to spend
millions on their IT infrastructure yet as always the SB Co's manage
to drop a big boo boo for no reason. If futures didnt droop that far and they
basd their prices on a feed from the futures then why the glitch.

I back SB for longer term trades no problem. Short term trades no way.

But if their IT Team let this happen they should be firing every one of their
floppy haired geeky ar$es out of the business.

 

[gle101]

Glitch my ar$e. Futures brokerages and SB companies manage to spend
millions on their IT infrastructure yet as always the SB Co's manage
to drop a big boo boo for no reason. If futures didnt droop that far and they
basd their prices on a feed from the futures then why the glitch.

I back SB for longer term trades no problem. Short term trades no way.

But if their IT Team let this happen they should be firing every one of their
floppy haired geeky ar$es out of the business.

This kind of error do not occur very often. I have been trading SB for 5 years and overall they perform well, and especially this past year SB companies have geared up their performance. Yes you do have issues trading SB, but that comes with trading any market. My biggest issue with SB is discrimination of certain clients, this in order to limit their trading success in one way of the other.

 

[dmytro]

This kind of error do not occur very often. I have been trading SB for 5 years and overall they perform well, and especially this past year SB companies have geared up their performance. Yes you do have issues trading SB, but that comes with trading any market. My biggest issue with SB is discrimination of certain clients, this in order to limit their trading success in one way of the other.

Gle, could u be more specific on this one? Just interested as I read similar things elswhere, but not sure how exactly can they limit you... Do you mean actual trade size?

 

[gle101]

Gle, could u be more specific on this one? Just interested as I read similar things elswhere, but not sure how exactly can they limit you... Do you mean actual trade size?

What I mainly mean by discrimination is, constant referral to a dealer (despite of a low trade sizes), excessive re-quotes or "price no longer valid" messages. These two alone results in you not being able to trade on equal terms. Discrimination of clients is not allowed according to the MiFID financial directives.

 

[gedward3]

Gedward, I think this would be the case at the end of the day. All right, to sum up, I think I would not stand a chance to claim money back due to the fact what Gedward and Tar mentioned before, IG can claim any price quote as erroneous after all and call it back.
But when exactly is SB quote 'erroneous', I frankly do not know. I just guess its good for them as they can effectively call back their mispriced bids and asks. But again, its the game of betting after all...

They do this when they deem it to be. Look at their book and see that if they drop
a few hundred points futher than the market really dropped they can take out the
short term trades as well as the longer term trades and their stops and start with
a pretty fresh book for the next volatile market movement and they can do it again.

They make a little on the spreads in normal market conditions and then a big paycheque
when stuff like this happens. Do you think they filled any long orders at the bottom
of that downward move, no way. 200,000 members on here so if anyone has say hello so we know that this thread is not full of conspiracy thoerists.

 

[gle101]

They do this when they deem it to be. Look at their book and see that if they drop
a few hundred points futher than the market really dropped they can take out the
short term trades as well as the longer term trades and their stops and start with
a pretty fresh book for the next volatile market movement and they can do it again.

They make a little on the spreads in normal market conditions and then a big paycheque
when stuff like this happens. Do you think they filled any long orders at the bottom
of that downward move, no way. 200,000 members on here so if anyone has say hello so we know that this thread is not full of conspiracy thoerists.

I am quite sure what happened to you is some kind of structural technical error. The regulation can work against you in some cases, but this acceptable as it not very often an occurring incident.

 

[gedward3]

We've seen this many times on here but thought it relevant to show again.

See the highlighted bit in red.

http://www.arielcommunications.co.uk/products.htm

Products


Ariel FX
Ariel FX is the industry standard. It consists of three parts: Trading Client, Dealer Program & System Admin.

Trading Client
•Secure account access
•Real time firm quotes
•Click & deal trading
•Real time chat
•The ability to integrate third charts & news
•Orders management
•Live margining of client accounts
•Real time marked to market clients’ open positions
•Real time intra-day valuation client accounts
•Ability to link external statements
•Multiple price page facility
Dealer Program

•Customisable Control - Dealer control on all deals prior to execution
•Filter – Filter trades by dealer, trade and book
•Trades Manual or Auto-fill – Accept, Reject, or Request for Quote
•Orders Manual or Auto-Accept – Accept or Reject individual orders
•Click & Deal – Allows automatic dealing within parameters
•Set Parameters – Set by currenc pair, size or individual client
•Chat sessions – Dealer or Client initiated Chat 1-to-1
•Alerts – Alert on New Deal, New Order, New Chat, Price feed failure
•View Client Accounts
•Trade History – View by Book, Trade, Client, etc
•Position Keeper – View P&L by Book and in term currency.
•Connection Quality – Monitor connection quality with different clients
System Administrator

•Prices
•Roll overs
•Trading Books – manage customers and dealers into books.
•House Position - View by book.
•Monitors working orders – Orders redlined for Dealer execution or can be configured for auto-execution by client, market and size.
•Slippage – Set by client, market and size to make extra pips on stop orders
•Price History – View or search of historic price data.


Ariel FX in a Box
We’ve taken away the last barrier to offering FX – the price. Now you can rent a turnkey FX system complete with Client, Dealer and Admin for a low monthly fee.

 

[gedward3]

I am quite sure what happened to you is some kind of structural technical error. The regulation can work against you in some cases, but this acceptable as it not very often an occurring incident.

Nothing happened to me. I wasnt in the market.

Was making a generalisation.

 

[dmytro]

I get 'price no longer valid' messages as well, quite often in fact. But that will probably be the case for pretty much anybody with short term trading (betting) strategy.
I would really like to find out when exactly are you in 'conflict of interest' with SB company.
Example: got a friend who works for a bookie (online accounts) and he clearly said that whenever anybody wins any decent money or wins on a consistent basis, he is immediately flagged and either refused to bet or allowed only very limited bets.
Now this is obvious as the bookie doesnt hedge any bets on a market and the sum of all odds has to provide a positive payoff regardless of the outcome of any of their bets.
From what I know, SB companies do not hedge all trades, that means by definition that they take a risk on these and pay you (if you win) with their own cash. So if you want to scalp the markets using trades that take 5-20 seconds(provided that you are successful) you are eating out directly their cash. Therefore I would not be surprised if ppl experience re-quotes etc.
Perhaps guys that trade longer SB could provide little insight on this one.

 

[dmytro]

We've seen this many times on here but thought it relevant to show again.

See the highlighted bit in red.

http://www.arielcommunications.co.uk/products.htm

Products


Ariel FX
Ariel FX is the industry standard. It consists of three parts: Trading Client, Dealer Program & System Admin.

Trading Client
•Secure account access
•Real time firm quotes
•Click & deal trading
•Real time chat
•The ability to integrate third charts & news
•Orders management
•Live margining of client accounts
•Real time marked to market clients’ open positions
•Real time intra-day valuation client accounts
•Ability to link external statements
•Multiple price page facility
Dealer Program

•Customisable Control - Dealer control on all deals prior to execution
•Filter – Filter trades by dealer, trade and book
•Trades Manual or Auto-fill – Accept, Reject, or Request for Quote
•Orders Manual or Auto-Accept – Accept or Reject individual orders
•Click & Deal – Allows automatic dealing within parameters
•Set Parameters – Set by currenc pair, size or individual client
•Chat sessions – Dealer or Client initiated Chat 1-to-1
•Alerts – Alert on New Deal, New Order, New Chat, Price feed failure
•View Client Accounts
•Trade History – View by Book, Trade, Client, etc
•Position Keeper – View P&L by Book and in term currency.
•Connection Quality – Monitor connection quality with different clients
System Administrator

•Prices
•Roll overs
•Trading Books – manage customers and dealers into books.
•House Position - View by book.
•Monitors working orders – Orders redlined for Dealer execution or can be configured for auto-execution by client, market and size.
•Slippage – Set by client, market and size to make extra pips on stop orders
•Price History – View or search of historic price data.


Ariel FX in a Box
We’ve taken away the last barrier to offering FX – the price. Now you can rent a turnkey FX system complete with Client, Dealer and Admin for a low monthly fee.

I havent seen this one before, many thanks for posting this again

 

[dmytro]

By the way guys, check this out, this is re Gedwards' post - list of clients that use this system they are proudly presented on their webpage http://www.arielcommunications.co.uk/clients.htm

We've seen this many times on here but thought it relevant to show again.

See the highlighted bit in red.

http://www.arielcommunications.co.uk/products.htm

Products


Ariel FX
Ariel FX is the industry standard. It consists of three parts: Trading Client, Dealer Program & System Admin.

Trading Client
•Secure account access
•Real time firm quotes
•Click & deal trading
•Real time chat
•The ability to integrate third charts & news
•Orders management
•Live margining of client accounts
•Real time marked to market clients’ open positions
•Real time intra-day valuation client accounts
•Ability to link external statements
•Multiple price page facility
Dealer Program

•Customisable Control - Dealer control on all deals prior to execution
•Filter – Filter trades by dealer, trade and book
•Trades Manual or Auto-fill – Accept, Reject, or Request for Quote
•Orders Manual or Auto-Accept – Accept or Reject individual orders
•Click & Deal – Allows automatic dealing within parameters
•Set Parameters – Set by currenc pair, size or individual client
•Chat sessions – Dealer or Client initiated Chat 1-to-1
•Alerts – Alert on New Deal, New Order, New Chat, Price feed failure
•View Client Accounts
•Trade History – View by Book, Trade, Client, etc
•Position Keeper – View P&L by Book and in term currency.
•Connection Quality – Monitor connection quality with different clients
System Administrator

•Prices
•Roll overs
•Trading Books – manage customers and dealers into books.
•House Position - View by book.
•Monitors working orders – Orders redlined for Dealer execution or can be configured for auto-execution by client, market and size.
•Slippage – Set by client, market and size to make extra pips on stop orders
•Price History – View or search of historic price data.


Ariel FX in a Box
We’ve taken away the last barrier to offering FX – the price. Now you can rent a turnkey FX system complete with Client, Dealer and Admin for a low monthly fee.

 

[gle101]

I have said before and will say it again. A threat to a SB company is not winning traders, but an unbalance in the book that can cause havoc, if extremely unfavorable market events occur. An even greater danger is breakdown of the internal risk management system (excessive credit to traders). Today I do not think that a SB company will jeopardize the company existence by a constant basis trading against its clients.

 

[gedward3]

I have said before and will say it again. A threat to a SB company is not winning traders, but an unbalance in the book that can cause havoc, if extremely unfavorable market events occur. An even greater danger is breakdown of the internal risk management system (excessive credit to traders). Today I do not think that a SB company will jeopardize the company existence by a constant basis trading against its clients.

gle101,

SB in my opinion as i have said before is fine if you trade the longer timeframes
such as above 15 mins. You start dropping down and getting in and out of the
markets quickly and you will noticed requotes and slippage. SB do pull tricks here
and there and the post i put up earlier about Ariel Communications proves this.

SB are not all bad but newbies dont research enough about when and when to
be in the markets with a SB Co.

 

[gle101]

gle101,

SB in my opinion as i have said before is fine if you trade the longer timeframes
such as above 15 mins. You start dropping down and getting in and out of the
markets quickly and you will noticed requotes and slippage. SB do pull tricks here
and there and the post i put up earlier about Ariel Communications proves this.

SB are not all bad but newbies dont research enough about when and when to
be in the markets with a SB Co.

They sure do, it is part of the game, you are dealing with market maker so there is bound to be some problem along the way. The greatest problem for the newbie is not the SB, it is having a proper risk money management strategy. How a market maker operates, and what you have to do in order to protect yourself comes with experience. On this forum a lot of members contribute with valuable insight, but it is often the trader needs first hand experiences in order to trade this market safely.

 

[dmytro]

Ok, considering all the posts here, I think that regarding my initial thread, I do not have much of a chance to succeed and get money (taken from my account) on the winning trade back. Thanks for the advice and opinions on this one guys!
D.