How long does it take to become a successful consistant day trader?

[wasp]

He is not categorising the 2% exposure as a potential 2 % wipeout, as I understand it he is exposing 2% of his capital, which is a very different proposition indeed.

That is a 2% wipeout of both euro and cable trades losing at the same time. Or, 1% per position.

 

[senyorqueso]

Socrates,

No offence intended, but why make such a big thing about whether chrisw is a professional or not? If he's getting what he wants out of his trading without taking on unnecessary risk isn't that enough?

SQ

 

[fudgestain]

Hi fudgestain,
Unlike chrisw, I suspect you're correct - unfortunately for me. An endorsement of your post from SOCRATES serves to confirm this view. A criticism that successful traders make of wannabes like myself is that the wannabes want to be given something of great value (i.e. advice and knowledge etc.) for nothing. Why should professional traders freely dispense their wisdom, acquired through seriously hard graft to the inexperienced and often work shy wannabes? No reason at all that I can think of. Also, on the occasions that such advice or knowledge is freely given, it is all too often criticised, ridiculed or simply ignored. Very annoying indeed, I'm sure. Having said all of that, how does the aspiring wannabe trader set about learning how to trade? What are the "right questions" that you refer to? How do you establish "an accurate model to amass money from the market?" And lastly, your analogy about charts and the tablecloth I like, but can you enlighten us as to what the table represents: price and volume perhaps? Or am I not asking the right question?

Tim.

Well, hell, its hard to poke my fingers in the eyes of anyone, Tim, who actually wants to consider the reality of making money from the market. There are all sorts of claims and rituals of playing in the market, talked about by all the independent twennies at a major BB like this one; it is no longer of passing interest to me but hell where would the world be without the swarming sport of wannabes in everything. I'm going to die knowing jack sh*t about most things, although it might be more than many, because I prefer taking and amassing money from the market. Its a game and I like playing it.

Trying to tell you a few starter things won't help. You won't know the 'How' that got me to those things. And telling you on a BB can also lead to a lot of inane stuff from the many who don't know that much. No offence meant to those be-getters of confusion. No one ever puts in the problem solving research and study of a market .. say 2 years. Best disposition to have; you need to be a problem solver. Check who you are.

So OK the tablecloth and the table. Is the table price and volume? No.
It is numerical and in rawest form it consists of PRICE and TIME. How often does anyone on a BB talk about the relation of price and time on the clock to the hour and minute? That tells you how just how far almost all are from the means needed to proceed anywhere.
As I said it is not going to help.

 

[SOCRATES]

Mr Cheese,

You have obviously read all of this thread but not understood it. You ought to read it again with care until you understand all of it and then your conclusion will be different to the one you have arrived at. All you need to do is misunderstand one sentence or indeed only one word and that is enough for you to misdirect yourself. I respectfully suggest you do as I say and persist until you understand all of what is written and why.

Kind Regards.

 

[SOCRATES]

Well, hell, its hard to poke my fingers in the eyes of anyone, Tim, who actually wants to consider the reality of making money from the market. There are all sorts of claims and rituals of playing in the market, talked about by all the independent twennies at a major BB like this one; it is no longer of passing interest to me but hell where would the world be without the swarming sport of wannabes in everything. I going to die knowing jack sh*t about most things, although it might be more than many, because I prefer taking and amassing money from the market. Its a game and I like playing it.

Trying to tell you a few starter things won't help. You won't know the 'How' that got me to those things. And telling you on a BB can also lead to a lot of inane stuff from the many who don't know that much. No offence meant to those be-getters of confusion. No one ever puts in the problem solving research and study of a market .. say 2 years. Best disposition to have; you need to be a problem solver. Check who you are.

So OK the tablecloth and the table. Is the the table price and volume? No.
It is numerical and in rawest form it consists of PRICE and TIME. How often does anyone on a BB talk about the relation of price and time on the clock to the hour and minute? That tells you how just how far almost all are from the means needed to proceed anywhere.
As I said it is not going to help.

You are absolutely right again and that is why I agree with you. And it is not going to help because these things are not what aspirants want to hear, so you are wasting your time and effort trying to make water run uphill, IMV.

 

[nine]

So, chris said that 2% exposure means 2% is risked, which is the only definition of exposure that is meaningful when we mix discussion of futures, stocks, options, spreadbetting all in one thread. One could argue interminably about black swan events creating "greater exposure" than ones chosen risk but it only changes the absolute numbers a little. One can also argue about the achievability problems with a larger capital base but I suspect that doesnt apply here.

So the only question, wrt his ability to enhance his capital base (and you do want to grow it at a greater rate, after tax, than inflation or it will not sustain you forever) is how frequently he is able to take a 2% risk.

IMO (hopefully more humble than Socrates and more helpful that the obtuse fudgestain), if he is taking one or more trades per day then this can meet the criteria for "trading seriously." In this case, say at 2 trades per day with 2% risked perhaps the average return is over 1% per day. 200 days per year would return 200% per annum before tax. Very acceptable.

If he was taking 1-2 trades per week then he might return 1% per week which would translate to 50%pa. Still acceptable but not stellar. But if one was trading to provide a good living doing what one enjoyed then it would seem to me to meet the criteria for "professional."

 

[pb]

I am just sick and tired of these self proclaimed gurus who have seen the truth, know it all, can't tell much because it won't help (or because they are selling a course), but don't mind typing twaddles on their PC at 11.30pm on a weekend night on a BB like this.

Sad, really.

There are many members of this board who are making a healthy living out of trading, who are honest, genuine, normal people, who are not desparate to establish cults. It's because of these people that this forum is still bearable.

Sharky, please can you create a private forum only for these gurus and keep them confined there?

 

[timsk]

Well, hell, its hard to poke my fingers in the eyes of anyone, Tim, who actually wants to consider the reality of making money from the market.

No chance M8. I wear glasses which offer protection from anyone who might be inclined to poke their fingers in my eyes. They also help me to see the pretty patterns on the tablecloth. :cheesy:
Tim.

 

[Trader333]

Thank you for your reply, but I am not askling you, I am asking him, and I am interested in his responses at this minute, and no one elses however helpful the intent or otherwise

This post I made was for the benefit of chrisw and if you go back to post # 47 you will see that you jumped into a conversation initiated by my original question and that is why I posted the explanation.

Paul

 

[nobrainer]

''I ought to clarify what I consider exposure. For me when I place a trade (which is on US stocks) my expsoure is 100%. By that I mean that if a stock is trading at say $40 and my account balance is $50K then I trade 1250 shares (but usually rounded down so 1200). So my exposure is 1200 x $40 = $48K and this is in reality what my risk is on any given trade.

However, I will never let a trade take more of my capital than 0.5 of 1% of my account size so my maximum intended risk in the above example is 0.5 x 0.01 x 48000 = $240 per trade and this is the maximum because usually I am out before getting anywhere close to this figure.

The reason I asked the question is because most people do not understand what the true risk in any trade really is and I hope that this clarifies where I was coming from.''




Thanks Paul for clarifying that. I've often wondered what you meant by those figures when you have quoted them in the past.
Whilst I can correlate the 100% exposure with my own figures, the maximum risk figure seems very conservative .I am prepared to risk up to 2% of my account size on any 1 daytrade.Now whilst I accept that the US markets are faster moving than the uk ones, it seems that you must do an awful lot of daytrades in comparison to me. Risk/reward and personal targets presumably explain the disparity as well but I'll disclude trade size.
I also believe that successful daytraders traders ought to embrace greater risk whilst maintaining discipline and not be governed by too many parameters.

 

[wasp]

Just to make my perspective clearer (especially for Socrates in case he still doesn't think I answered his question)

Instead of trying to build my account my objective now is to keep an assatained balance, trade the same amount / or 2% on an overall loss, aquire the minimum pips, and rest happilly in the knowledge of affording my lifestyle.

As you say Kiwi, over time, in theory, I shall increase my capital and amounts I trade to cover inflation and my requirements but I will still endeveour to keep my risk at below 2% at any given time.

As I tried to explain last night, I am not doing this to be the next Jesse or Soros, I am trying to earn a living with the minimum of risk.

My initial reason for posting on this thread was because there are so many posts telling everyone how hard this is, and how little hope there is, and charts and non understanding of oneself equals failure. I myself, like I know there are plenty more on these boards, use charts to enter and exit the market, use minimal risk, and get by without a degree in psychology.

IMHO, learn the markets, how they move, see when the opportunities arise, act on them, don't be greedy, accept the losses and keep it simple. Once I realsied how little I needed to risk and how if I kept my goals to a minimum, I could work only a few hours a day and earn more than I ever have before. The markets, whichever they are, offer simple obvious signs for opportunities at all times. Once I began to recognise them and accept (and exit quick) If I was wrong, things became much easier.

 

[pb]

You da man, Chris, you da man.

 

[Mr. Charts]

I'm inclined to agree with nobrainer about this, though not necessarily with a risk of 2% per trade since if you are short four open trades for example and the market heads north suddenly that degree of risk seems too great for my taste.
Everyone should operate with a maximum $ loss tolerance.
However, the probability of the trade proving profitable is integral to this, imo.
Having been trading US stocks intraday for a living since 1999, I KNOW from that experience the %age probability of success of any of the set up patterns and triggers I use in the market conditions at the time.
For example I know that the probability of set up X working around 1000 ET might be 80%, but the same set up working at 1230 ET might only be 65% so that is incorporated in my decision whether to take the trade and in what size and what my maximum $ risk would be in a worst case scenario.
Most of the time I will exit a trade immediately if it goes against me and not wait for a stop to be hit.
That in turn means I can take larger position sizes provided I know from my level 2 screen that I can exit quickly and safely.
Some of my set ups have a very high %age probability of success and I am therefore happy and comfortable to take position sizes in excess of 1000, 2000, 3000, shares etc. knowing from experience that my $ risk is very low and from my screens that there is deep support on the bid side if I need to exit a long quickly.
In my opinion acceptance of some degree of risk is necessary to achieve substantive results. However, it needs to be strictly controlled.
It is easy on the one hand to be obsessive about risk to the degree where you are limiting your own potential profits.
On the other hand strict control is totally vital to ensure minimum drawdown.
Although everyone says you must trade within your comfort zone - and that makes a lot of sense and is perfectly valid and correct - my own view is that you should trade at the limits of your comfort zone and always gently and gradually expand the envelope.
In a sense that's a microcosm of life generally and is one of the requirements of progress.
I suspect the experienced traders understand what I am saying.
Richard

 

[Trader333]

Nobrainer,

I rarely do more than 3 trades a day and my aim is to make a 1% increase in my account balance in total on any given trading day. I can see where you are coming from though and I would say that the way I operate is one that has suited me well but each person has different needs and requirements in this area.


Paul

 

[fudgestain]

No chance M8. I wear glasses which offer protection from anyone who might be inclined to poke their fingers in my eyes. They also help me to see the pretty patterns on the tablecloth. :cheesy:
Tim.

Sure, by all means M8T, stick with the pretty patterns on the tablecloth .. because thats all you can get from it.

 

[SOCRATES]

I'm inclined to agree with nobrainer about this, though not necessarily with a risk of 2% per trade since if you are short four open trades for example and the market heads north suddenly that degree of risk seems too great for my taste.
Everyone should operate with a maximum $ loss tolerance.
However, the probability of the trade proving profitable is integral to this, imo.
Having been trading US stocks intraday for a living since 1999, I KNOW from that experience the %age probability of success of any of the set up patterns and triggers I use in the market conditions at the time.
For example I know that the probability of set up X working around 1000 ET might be 80%, but the same set up working at 1230 ET might only be 65% so that is incorporated in my decision whether to take the trade and in what size and what my maximum $ risk would be in a worst case scenario.
Most of the time I will exit a trade immediately if it goes against me and not wait for a stop to be hit.
That in turn means I can take larger position sizes provided I know from my level 2 screen that I can exit quickly and safely.
Some of my set ups have a very high %age probability of success and I am therefore happy and comfortable to take position sizes in excess of 1000, 2000, 3000, shares etc. knowing from experience that my $ risk is very low and from my screens that there is deep support on the bid side if I need to exit a long quickly.
In my opinion acceptance of some degree of risk is necessary to achieve substantive results. However, it needs to be strictly controlled.
It is easy on the one hand to be obsessive about risk to the degree where you are limiting your own potential profits.
On the other hand strict control is totally vital to ensure minimum drawdown.
Although everyone says you must trade within your comfort zone - and that makes a lot of sense and is perfectly valid and correct - my own view is that you should trade at the limits of your comfort zone and always gently and gradually expand the envelope.
In a sense that's a microcosm of life generally and is one of the requirements of progress.
I suspect the experienced traders understand what I am saying.
Richard

Yes, perfectly. But the whole scenario around risk revolves around a single word, and that word is KNOWING. For those who don't know, the risk is similar to flicking a coin in the air or playing black or red at roulette. So we are talking about two levels. These levels are separated by knowledge. This knowledge is further enhanced by cognition. Cognition is furher enhanced by knowledge. Knowledge and cognition together are further enhanced by familiarity. Familiarity is enhanced by experience. Experience is enhanced by awareness. Awareness is enhanced by intuition, and so on......
So there are many steps that lead to proficiency and this takes a long time, a very long time and a lot of work and effort, of which it is patently obvious that very few are capable or willing, yet nearly everybody gets fastened on the prize and the prize alone.

 

[SOCRATES]

I am just sick and tired of these self proclaimed gurus who have seen the truth, know it all, can't tell much because it won't help (or because they are selling a course), but don't mind typing twaddles on their PC at 11.30pm on a weekend night on a BB like this.

Sad, really.

There are many members of this board who are making a healthy living out of trading, who are honest, genuine, normal people, who are not desparate to establish cults. It's because of these people that this forum is still bearable.

Sharky, please can you create a private forum only for these gurus and keep them confined there?

That is correct, we cannot tell much because in whichever way it is explained or however it is illuminated it is not understood. But among ouselves we know perfectly well what it is we are talking about, and furthermore we do not diametrically disagree nor do we have to resort to insults.

I have no doubt that among you there are many members who are honest, genuine, and normal, and it is for the benefit of these that I continue to post when I have a bit of time, but what can be offered publicly has to be restricted to "wholesale" knowledge and not "bespoke", because to do otherwise would not be prudent, and nothing to do with the selling of courses as you imply.

Furthermore you would do well to consult a reliable English Language Dictionary to ascertain the correct use of a term before you use it, and lastly, we already have a forum of our own outside of all of this to which we confine our most interesting and constructive discussions so that none of you are inconvenienced, admission by invitation only and agreement has to be unanimous. So now you know that you don't know.

 

[wasp]

Yes, perfectly. But the whole scenario around risk revolves around a single word, and that word is KNOWING. For those who don't know, the risk is similar to flicking a coin in the air or playing black or red at roulette. So we are talking about two levels. These levels are separated by knowledge. This knowledge is further enhanced by cognition. Cognition is furher enhanced by knowledge. Knowledge and cognition together are further enhanced by familiarity. Familiarity is enhanced by experience. Experience is enhanced by awareness. Awareness is enhanced by intuition, and so on......
So there are many steps that lead to proficiency and this takes a long time, a very long time and a lot of work and effort, of which it is patently obvious that very few are capable or willing, yet nearly everybody gets fastened on the prize and the prize alone.

Or, you could just be aware of the amount you are risking and making sure you exit the trade before you go over that pre set level. Consequently ensuring you don't lose more than your comfortable with. That just takes experience and practise and self control.

 

[the blades]

Soc - it seems 99% of your >1000 posts have been long winded, sermon like rants about how difficult trading is. We get the picture - will another 1000 posts actually add anything?

Your opinion about the majority here is clear. What's also clear is that you aren't here to help - so why bother?

As for hard work - you have no idea what work other people are putting in behind the scenes. You make sweeping judgements based on what you read here. Yet you are clearly annoyed when others judge your motives.

You've made your point - endlessly.

UTB

 

[SOCRATES]

No, not exacly, that is back to front.

First of all through cognition a situation is assessed very very quickly to determine what potential there is in it and in which direction, and at the same time what could go wrong and how, and at the same time what escape can be planned in advance if the unforseen happens and a stop, a very tight stop established, all of this in one go. You don't have much time so all of this has to be done very quickly and accurately.

The next stage is to assess the order of magnitude that the potential offers. Then a point of entry to best advantage is quickly established and snapped at immediately it manifests itself. This response has to be quicker than you can even think of talking it through, because it is so fast. The commitment, rather the act of committing is super fast. The verdict unfolds. If the verdict is in line with expectations it is allowed to run, if not it is cut, again with lighning response wilth the smallest practicable stop loss that can be enacted. Bear in mind that the verdict appears before the trial is held , which is the opposite to everything that is normal in ordinary life.

When the verdict is in line with expectations a target is set to exit. When very near this target it is reviewed again as to whether it ought to be modified. The act of remaining depends upon this crucial judgement, but the act of exiting is just as fast if not faster than the act of entering. If the original entry plan is not fullfilled because the price runs away out of reach, however attractive, the trade is not chased, because there are many other opportunities just as good to follow that can be snatched provided you have all the correct information. This "information" is encapsulated within knowledge + cognition + familiarity + experience + awareness + intuition = the edge, which is the ability to act seamlessly and in a supercooled mental state, on command, at will, with faultless replication as and when required,