chilltrader
Experienced member
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There's something called as omnovia conferencing as well... dunno if its free though...
vyralsurfer
Newbie
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If worse comes to worse, Yahoo chat is tried and true...may just want to password it and post the password in this thread so we don't get spammers and bots in there.
Got completly freezed out of paltalk, crashed as soon as logged on. Didn't know about skyppe 
Anyway didn't trade on YM today as a rollover day, FTSE had a glorious day though up 210 points that's £2100 or nearly $3000.
FTSE rollover doesn't happen until expiry day next week.
See you all tomorrow if paltalk is up to it !
Anyway didn't trade on YM today as a rollover day, FTSE had a glorious day though up 210 points that's £2100 or nearly $3000.
FTSE rollover doesn't happen until expiry day next week.
See you all tomorrow if paltalk is up to it !
RelaxedTrader
Junior member
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A question about margin and capital
Bashir,
In one of your posts you mentioned "A general rulse is trade 1 contract pr 5000 usd in your account, forthose who start out with 5000 k account are allowed to trade 2 contracts, simple reason is that they will not make any money with just 1 contract, their risk will be 4%, but they have worse odds with 1 contract then with 2.If you trade only 1 car you are not flexible, and you will most likely loose. Cause the trade goes +30 and then stops u, with 2 u partly profit and if u do get stoppped, u will still make some. With 1 contract you are basicly nailed eachtim the trade goes against you"
$5000 for what Markets? Bonds? Crude Oil, Natural Gas or Forex?
Margin on Bonds are currently more than 3.5 grand unless you trade somewhere where they give you low low margins... You already know about Crude Oil and Natural Gas.
Maybe you are talking about day trading rates for Indices, where they offer special low day trade rates?
My rule of thumb is roughly 4 times the margin and maybe even more per contract. Of course your 2% or 1% rule must also be taken into account. I feel the amount of margin per contract must meet 'weathering the worst possible disaster scenario'. Lot of times markets gap and even if you have a stop, 2% risk is not guarenteed. One market wizard I know uses at least 25 grand per emini contract(unless sometimes being more aggressive when conditions are loaded in favor for a particular trade).
I remember asking this question to Larry Williams a number of years ago and the answer was(at least two times if you can manage it)4 times the contract spec. If you check out his statements when he created a world record y in Robbins trading championship in 1987, you can see that whether he was trading Bonds or S&P he was trading roughly about 10k per contract back then(margins for bonds where probably around 2 grand per contract back then).
What I've found is when my risk is minimum like you say 2%, and when I've adequate capital to meet that need, I sleep well.
Just my two cents.
Regards
R_T
Bashir,
In one of your posts you mentioned "A general rulse is trade 1 contract pr 5000 usd in your account, forthose who start out with 5000 k account are allowed to trade 2 contracts, simple reason is that they will not make any money with just 1 contract, their risk will be 4%, but they have worse odds with 1 contract then with 2.If you trade only 1 car you are not flexible, and you will most likely loose. Cause the trade goes +30 and then stops u, with 2 u partly profit and if u do get stoppped, u will still make some. With 1 contract you are basicly nailed eachtim the trade goes against you"
$5000 for what Markets? Bonds? Crude Oil, Natural Gas or Forex?
Margin on Bonds are currently more than 3.5 grand unless you trade somewhere where they give you low low margins... You already know about Crude Oil and Natural Gas.
Maybe you are talking about day trading rates for Indices, where they offer special low day trade rates?
My rule of thumb is roughly 4 times the margin and maybe even more per contract. Of course your 2% or 1% rule must also be taken into account. I feel the amount of margin per contract must meet 'weathering the worst possible disaster scenario'. Lot of times markets gap and even if you have a stop, 2% risk is not guarenteed. One market wizard I know uses at least 25 grand per emini contract(unless sometimes being more aggressive when conditions are loaded in favor for a particular trade).
I remember asking this question to Larry Williams a number of years ago and the answer was(at least two times if you can manage it)4 times the contract spec. If you check out his statements when he created a world record y in Robbins trading championship in 1987, you can see that whether he was trading Bonds or S&P he was trading roughly about 10k per contract back then(margins for bonds where probably around 2 grand per contract back then).
What I've found is when my risk is minimum like you say 2%, and when I've adequate capital to meet that need, I sleep well.
Just my two cents.
Regards
R_T
santana55
Active member
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Got completly freezed out of paltalk, crashed as soon as logged on. Didn't know about skyppe
Anyway didn't trade on YM today as a rollover day, FTSE had a glorious day though up 210 points that's £2100 or nearly $3000.
FTSE rollover doesn't happen until expiry day next week.
See you all tomorrow if paltalk is up to it !
Jimbo,
Do you find the FTSE easier to trade than the YM? Are there better trends, is it less volitile? How much is a tick worth and what ae the hours?
Are you trading through Infinity Futures?
bnaimy
Established member
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The 5000 usd for Futures like the Emini YM, that requires 500usd in your account for each contract.
I agree with you that most would sleep better 1% or 2% risk at anytime, but not everybody have the luxery of having a 25k account,and if a trader wants to trade futures and only have a 5k account then he is left with two options
1:Save up more money to get at least 10k account.
2:Start trading carefully.
What i am doing is giving them the best way of not blowing their accounts, then you might say that but 4% will definityly do that. I dont belive so, if they pratice on a simulator account for some time and learn a good trading method, then they have a higher chance of making it with 2 contracts then with 1.What 2 contracts will do is , that it will give you most of the times breakevens, then stopouts. Its the initio stopouts that hurt the most.Most scenarios are like these, trader buys at 8000 and stop is -20 ticks.
Price goes up to +12 or +18 even, but he is still holding cause his target may be 20 since his risk is 20 as well.But then this happens alot.
Price goes back down and stops that trader, and he losses 20ticks x 5= 200usd 4% of his account.
Now you have another trader, he uses two contracts and have the same account size, he gets in at the same price, but he sells the first at +10 , and most of the time u get it,unless u are buying at the worst possible place.
So now he moves his stop to -8, his second contrats will be trailed or until his +30 target is hit.If the trades goes against him(must come down 18 ticks) then he will loose -8 ticks on that last contract.But he allready have +10 so he is left with 2 ticks, those two ticks cover comission.SO he did not loose anything, he used that first contract to zero his risk and his second contract will make him the big money of this is a good trade, if not he looses ZERO.
Now statisticly its pretty easy to get +10, unless ur tottally messing up your entries.
Take todays trading, i hade 4 breakevens right after eachother, that would be 20x4=80tick looss if i was playing with 1 contract. Instead i lost nothing.
And right after i hit a big runner, and made good money on it.SO the idea is to get your risk to zero level as quckly as possible. ANd you can do that with 2 contrats but not 1.
But i do agree that idealy a 10k account would be best with 2 contracts, but if a trader dont have that , this is the best solution, cause he can grow his account quickly so he lowers his risk as soon as possible. Playing with 1 contract will take long time and u will have more time to mess up,and its easy to mess it up with 1.Its all about minimizing and doing breakevens until you hit that big mover. Had one today, that gave me sweet +10 and +107
Thats my take on it, i am a person who dont like risk to be honest, and my goals have always been to minimize risk, as i hate lossing trades, they say embrasse the loosser as it is a part of the game, i hate it like the plague.Intead of embrassing it i try to find ways of working my method around it .So its always a tweaking battle for me, but im getting pretty good at plugging those little dark holes :cheesy:
I apprritiate your input on this as i find this a very intersting subject.
With kind regards
Bashir Naimy
bnaimy
Established member
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Its not free, its not a comercial chatroom so i dont see the need for a hightech room yett.
But thanks for the hint, i dide check them out , lets just stick to paltalk, as it was just 1 bad day with them,other days where great.
With kind regards
Bashir Naimy
bnaimy
Established member
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I belive the YM will be much better after the New year santana, the futures are always low volume and choppy sideways this time of year .Its historicaly that way each year.
But if you do get more information about other markeds that are more trending then please let me know, as i would be very intererted in tradingthose as well.
With kind regards
Bashir Naimy
RelaxedTrader
Junior member
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Bashir, Wonderful Response
Bashir,
I agree most traders are undercapitalized and thats why most of them don't win. I also feel that the one's who win can take an undercapitalized account and win.
It's interesting what you say about trading with two contracts instead of one. I remember reading Joe Ross's book 'Trading Is A Business(a must read for any trader). In that he mentions that the first contract of the two or three(I'm not quoting it here coz I dont have the book in front of me) you take must be used to pay for slippage and commissions which essentially means covering the costs of doing this business.
So when you take profit on first 10 ticks and move the stop up to break even, do you determine the stop manually using your methodology or you just place a money management stop?
In my case, Ive have literally no issue getting into a trade and doing well. My entries are right on the money. My problem is either I get too greedy or become indecisive when it comes to taking profits. I'm still trading the mini Forex to discipline myself to follow my rules and also to manage risk. My targets are determined by my trading plans. I think I could try what you say. I could go with minimum two lots or even size lots and then exit half at a fixed point which is easily doable and then trail the rest till it hits the target or until I get stopped out(of course at minimum after breaking even).
Hope to read your thread daily.
Regards
R_T
The 5000 usd for Futures like the Emini YM, that requires 500usd in your account for each contract.
I agree with you that most would sleep better 1% or 2% risk at anytime, but not everybody have the luxery of having a 25k account,and if a trader wants to trade futures and only have a 5k account then he is left with two options
1:Save up more money to get at least 10k account.
2:Start trading carefully.
What i am doing is giving them the best way of not blowing their accounts, then you might say that but 4% will definityly do that. I dont belive so, if they pratice on a simulator account for some time and learn a good trading method, then they have a higher chance of making it with 2 contracts then with 1.What 2 contracts will do is , that it will give you most of the times breakevens, then stopouts. Its the initio stopouts that hurt the most.Most scenarios are like these, trader buys at 8000 and stop is -20 ticks.
Price goes up to +12 or +18 even, but he is still holding cause his target may be 20 since his risk is 20 as well.But then this happens alot.
Price goes back down and stops that trader, and he losses 20ticks x 5= 200usd 4% of his account.
Now you have another trader, he uses two contracts and have the same account size, he gets in at the same price, but he sells the first at +10 , and most of the time u get it,unless u are buying at the worst possible place.
So now he moves his stop to -8, his second contrats will be trailed or until his +30 target is hit.If the trades goes against him(must come down 18 ticks) then he will loose -8 ticks on that last contract.But he allready have +10 so he is left with 2 ticks, those two ticks cover comission.SO he did not loose anything, he used that first contract to zero his risk and his second contract will make him the big money of this is a good trade, if not he looses ZERO.
Now statisticly its pretty easy to get +10, unless ur tottally messing up your entries.
Take todays trading, i hade 4 breakevens right after eachother, that would be 20x4=80tick looss if i was playing with 1 contract. Instead i lost nothing.
And right after i hit a big runner, and made good money on it.SO the idea is to get your risk to zero level as quckly as possible. ANd you can do that with 2 contrats but not 1.
But i do agree that idealy a 10k account would be best with 2 contracts, but if a trader dont have that , this is the best solution, cause he can grow his account quickly so he lowers his risk as soon as possible. Playing with 1 contract will take long time and u will have more time to mess up,and its easy to mess it up with 1.Its all about minimizing and doing breakevens until you hit that big mover. Had one today, that gave me sweet +10 and +107
Thats my take on it, i am a person who dont like risk to be honest, and my goals have always been to minimize risk, as i hate lossing trades, they say embrasse the loosser as it is a part of the game, i hate it like the plague.Intead of embrassing it i try to find ways of working my method around it .So its always a tweaking battle for me, but im getting pretty good at plugging those little dark holes :cheesy:
I apprritiate your input on this as i find this a very intersting subject.
With kind regards
Bashir Naimy
Bashir,
I agree most traders are undercapitalized and thats why most of them don't win. I also feel that the one's who win can take an undercapitalized account and win.
It's interesting what you say about trading with two contracts instead of one. I remember reading Joe Ross's book 'Trading Is A Business(a must read for any trader). In that he mentions that the first contract of the two or three(I'm not quoting it here coz I dont have the book in front of me) you take must be used to pay for slippage and commissions which essentially means covering the costs of doing this business.
So when you take profit on first 10 ticks and move the stop up to break even, do you determine the stop manually using your methodology or you just place a money management stop?
In my case, Ive have literally no issue getting into a trade and doing well. My entries are right on the money. My problem is either I get too greedy or become indecisive when it comes to taking profits. I'm still trading the mini Forex to discipline myself to follow my rules and also to manage risk. My targets are determined by my trading plans. I think I could try what you say. I could go with minimum two lots or even size lots and then exit half at a fixed point which is easily doable and then trail the rest till it hits the target or until I get stopped out(of course at minimum after breaking even).
Hope to read your thread daily.
Regards
R_T
WillemDrees
Active member
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Joe Ross, is that Bob Ross' smarter brother?
ps. I'm shooting for the funny member award :cheesy:
RelaxedTrader
Junior member
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- 15
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- 1
Lol!
Regards
R_T
I'm not sure whether they're brothers but both of them are very good at what they do.Joe Ross, is that Bob Ross' smarter brother?
ps. I'm shooting for the funny member award :cheesy:
Regards
R_T
nineteen19
Junior member
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- 0
FYI
mIRC: Internet Relay Chat client is a free chat room that many traders use. I visit a room there all day and works a charm. They also have script for showing the trades been done so other traders can see what trades are being done in the room. Some of the best day traders I know (100 trades a day 80% winners ) visit there.
mIRC: Internet Relay Chat client is a free chat room that many traders use. I visit a room there all day and works a charm. They also have script for showing the trades been done so other traders can see what trades are being done in the room. Some of the best day traders I know (100 trades a day 80% winners ) visit there.
bnaimy
Established member
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Hi R_T, you are correct, the first contracts job is to zero the risk and cover any cost related to that trade. When my first target is hit i always move my stop to -8, its just money managment, because thats the most i can loose before i actualy loose on that that .
When i get my first +10 i move it to -8 so im left with 2ticks if it gets stopped, 2 tick cover commission. If the stopped was moved to -10 instead i would then not be covering my commission,and that is a loss.So i have a rule that is always -8, eventhough it will not make sense to have it at that place, having it a few ticks below for instance, would give me better change of success, but my idea is that if it get my +10 and it comes down to -8, thats a 18 tick move, then marked is to either choppy or its not a good move to begin with. I will reenter if i do get stopped, if the rules are letitng me.So my stop is always moved to -8 when my first target is hit ,no matter what it will always remain -8, when price goes +30 ticks in my favor stopped is then moved to my entrypoint.
What i have done when it comes to my emotions and waiting to long or covering to fast, i basicly simplified my method so that a program can easly understand it and i automated it, so my entrys are automated and so are my excits and my stops are moved automaticly. So there goes my emotions out of the window,my exits are pretty dynamic, cause it have some critirias for it to actually exit at. And i do give away some of those small moves that go up +30 ticks, but whe there is a bigger move i ride it all the way down.ANd on those smaller moves it just goes breakeven.
I had the same issue with taking profits to soon, and that really a hard nut for me to crack, so i worked my way around it :whistling
bnaimy
Established member
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Joe Ross, is that Bob Ross' smarter brother?
ps. I'm shooting for the funny member award :cheesy:
HEHEHE now thats a good one :cheesy:
I definitly vote for you m8
Bashir
Hi Santana
The London FTSE 100 futures trades on Euronext Liffe. It is £10 british pounds a point and trades in half point increments, so a tick is worth £5. It opens at 8:00am gmt (uk time) and closes at 9:00pm gmt (uk time) but volume gets very thin after 5:00pm gmt (uk time) when the London Stock Exchange closes.
Best time to trade it is in the morning before New York opens, after then it tracks the Dow but is nowhere near as choppy. In does move quite slowly and can have some great intraday trends with slow and measured pullbacks. On the downside Infinity don't support Liffe but I think IB do (I trade it through MF Global on the Strategy Runner platform as they have an office in London).
Its a market that quite often gets overlooked in favour of the German Dax and Eurostoxx because they trade on the more widely used platform of Eurex, but Euronext Liffe is now owned by the New York stock exchange so we might see some changes soon.
Ive had the same - 600$.I think we have to wait for established trend and than trade.
Vit
