Hello people :)

[Oscar Reed]

Too many people try to learn off charts to start with.

Much easier to learn market depth, time and sales it will give you better understanding what the chart is saying,

Even just using a chart taking 7 years seems way too long they must be doing something very wrong.

I would be amazed if took more than one year.

Maybe it's a British thing and the way people are told and taught about trading in the old dart.

 

[Forexmospherian]

I thinks it is also down to how your define consistently profitable

If you go to any copy trader sites - where you follow other traders who are supposed to be experienced and making consistent monies - many have 2 to 6 months of profits behind them and then over the next 1 or 2 months lose their accounts - maybe down to never closing losing trades and without stops etc.

In my own case - I was not consistent part time ( even with over 2000+ trading hrs behind me after 2 years ) I would have yo -yo quarters and months - hardly consistent - at that point never realised with what I thought was a 70% + win ratio that you could still have over 7 consecutive losses in a row etc

After year 3 I had learnt more and understood the markets far better - I had easily spent over $2k + on courses both online and with so called experts using bank methods etc etc and still did not feel comfortable at anything over 1 lot a pip. By year 5 I had decided to go full time having taking a 100K account up well over double and then finding out the problems of compounding and that I could not handle large lot size - over 20 Lots plus using my own money and after a bad period - it set me back over 6 months and I seriously though about not carrying on.

Trading is a journey - just like learning to drive a car or fly a plane. Nowadays to be a professional commercial pilot you need over 1500 hrs flying time and insurance companies like to see at least 3 years of no accidents with new drivers to feel as they do know how to drive in all road conditions

I know of drivers who after 3 years had still not covered over 1000 miles and not driven in the dark or on motorways. This like traders who say they have not had a losing month over 5 months and the think they have cracked it has their capital account has grown . When you realise they trade weekly and have only taken 14 trades and the 8 winners have exceeded the 6 losses - they think they have done well and joined the 10% club of consistent winners ;-)

Little do they know whats ahead - just like driving a car during 4 seasons - the markets can have kind and easy periods and a really bad 2 months can ruin a traders year of trades

For more info on how long it takes the average trader - another link - unfortunately not on this forum

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?p=2766972


Regards


F

 

[dbphoenix]

I thinks it is also down to how your define consistently profitable

If you go to any copy trader sites - where you follow other traders who are supposed to be experienced and making consistent monies - many have 2 to 6 months of profits behind them and then over the next 1 or 2 months lose their accounts - maybe down to never closing losing trades and without stops etc.

In my own case - I was not consistent part time ( even with over 2000+ trading hrs behind me after 2 years ) I would have yo -yo quarters and months - hardly consistent - at that point never realised with what I thought was a 70% + win ratio that you could still have over 7 consecutive losses in a row etc

After year 3 I had learnt more and understood the markets far better - I had easily spent over $2k + on courses both online and with so called experts using bank methods etc etc and still did not feel comfortable at anything over 1 lot a pip. By year 5 I had decided to go full time having taking a 100K account up well over double and then finding out the problems of compounding and that I could not handle large lot size - over 20 Lots plus using my own money and after a bad period - it set me back over 6 months and I seriously though about not carrying on.

Trading is a journey - just like learning to drive a car or fly a plane. Nowadays to be a professional commercial pilot you need over 1500 hrs flying time and insurance companies like to see at least 3 years of no accidents with new drivers to feel as they do know how to drive in all road conditions

I know of drivers who after 3 years had still not covered over 1000 miles and not driven in the dark or on motorways. This like traders who say they have not had a losing month over 5 months and the think they have cracked it has their capital account has grown . When you realise they trade weekly and have only taken 14 trades and the 8 winners have exceeded the 6 losses - they think they have done well and joined the 10% club of consistent winners ;-)

Little do they know whats ahead - just like driving a car during 4 seasons - the markets can have kind and easy periods and a really bad 2 months can ruin a traders year of trades

For more info on how long it takes the average trader - another link - unfortunately not on this forum

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?p=2766972


Regards


F

None of this, however, is particularly relevant. How long it takes any given trader has nothing to do with how long it takes any other given trader. Many traders spend years traveling down the wrong paths. Others take a more deliberate and studied approach and get it in far less time. If one doesn't take the time to study the market (in the same way that a professional pilot studies flying or a professional driver studies driving), then, yes, he can spend five or seven or ten years at it and never get it. But if one puts in the study time first and comes up with a consistently-profitable trading plan, there's no reason he can't learn in a year, or, at the very least, learn that trading is not for him, in which case he can put his time to better use in some other pursuit. Like poker

I took the market seriously. I wasn't looking for Get Rick Quick schemes. So I made few mistakes. Granted there wasn't as much crap being shoved at traders back in the 70s, but there was plenty nonetheless. So when the internet came along, what sank others never appealed to me.

Bottom line is that one has to take it seriously. Few do. Like tomorton says, they're just looking to get lucky. And if they don't get lucky fairly quickly, they move on to something else. Though some are so thick that they hang on for years before finally being forced to quit.

Trading is complex, but that doesn't mean it's complicated. It's complicated only if one makes it so.

Db

 

[Oscar Reed]

I thinks it is also down to how your define consistently profitable

If you go to any copy trader sites - where you follow other traders who are supposed to be experienced and making consistent monies - many have 2 to 6 months of profits behind them and then over the next 1 or 2 months lose their accounts - maybe down to never closing losing trades and without stops etc.

In my own case - I was not consistent part time ( even with over 2000+ trading hrs behind me after 2 years ) I would have yo -yo quarters and months - hardly consistent - at that point never realised with what I thought was a 70% + win ratio that you could still have over 7 consecutive losses in a row etc

After year 3 I had learnt more and understood the markets far better - I had easily spent over $2k + on courses both online and with so called experts using bank methods etc etc and still did not feel comfortable at anything over 1 lot a pip. By year 5 I had decided to go full time having taking a 100K account up well over double and then finding out the problems of compounding and that I could not handle large lot size - over 20 Lots plus using my own money and after a bad period - it set me back over 6 months and I seriously though about not carrying on.

Trading is a journey - just like learning to drive a car or fly a plane. Nowadays to be a professional commercial pilot you need over 1500 hrs flying time and insurance companies like to see at least 3 years of no accidents with new drivers to feel as they do know how to drive in all road conditions

I know of drivers who after 3 years had still not covered over 1000 miles and not driven in the dark or on motorways. This like traders who say they have not had a losing month over 5 months and the think they have cracked it has their capital account has grown . When you realise they trade weekly and have only taken 14 trades and the 8 winners have exceeded the 6 losses - they think they have done well and joined the 10% club of consistent winners ;-)

Little do they know whats ahead - just like driving a car during 4 seasons - the markets can have kind and easy periods and a really bad 2 months can ruin a traders year of trades

For more info on how long it takes the average trader - another link - unfortunately not on this forum

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?p=2766972


Regards


F

Not sure what flying or driving got to do with trading.

People going solo can range from 6 hours to 21 hours.

Up to GFPT stage can take from 18 to 35 hours.

Private stage 40 or plus hours.

There is some natural talent in flying planes.

Trading is a lot less involved than flying.

 

[Bullinstu]

I recommend stocks

I would recommend you to trade stocks (equity) rather than forex.

The problem you will soon face is that there is a lot of online brokers that are out there looking to trick new traders to trade forex on very short timeframes, I would rather recommend you to learn a bit more about macroeconomics, save some money, then only then, and only then, open a trading account and start trading on fundamental predisposition.
That is how institutional hedge funds do it, they take a longer approach of one to 3 months into their trades.

Hello, I am new here on T2W and would love to learn more about stock trading. As I just started out I have tons of questions. I am 22 years old, previously been watching videos on Forex now just got into stock trading and found about T2W.

Now I still dont really know where and how to start, so any guideline would be very helpful. I know at forex you can just download MT platform and trade from there. How can I do stock trading with so many companies out there? Like...on MT I could find only Forex no company stocks.

In very confused as to wich way should I go, forex or stocks?

Thanks for reading have a great day everyone.

 

[Forexmospherian]

Not sure what flying or driving got to do with trading.

People going solo can range from 6 hours to 21 hours.

Up to GFPT stage can take from 18 to 35 hours.

Private stage 40 or plus hours.

There is some natural talent in flying planes.

Trading is a lot less involved than flying.

Hi Oscar

I compared with those skills - because emotions are involved

If you spend say 7 yrs learning to become a Doctor or 5 years to become a chartered accountant besides all the hard work involved - you are not going to go through an emotional journey - as with driving or say flying

With trading - the emotions are all connected to losing your hard earned money. With flying or even driving - get it wrong - a careless error - and you could lose your life - far more important than just money.

Emotions and mindset control separates the successful and Mr Average. In trading my emotions were only really tested from year 3 to 5. During my first 2 years - it was demo ( as we know easy peasy ) then a small $1 a pip live account and if I lost $20 in the session it hardly gave me palpitations or made me sweat.

Similar if I won say $30 I was pleased - but I knew that was really nothing and I would need to be aiming a lot higher to make it properly. Handling the $200 dollar loses I accepted - having $400 wins - I was delighted - but then my set back came with the big lots - just like flying a plane on your own and have a technical hitch and you suddenly realising you are under stress and not feeling comfortable.

Trading requires a lot of different skills along with strong disciplines and good mindset control - especially if you are planning to try and make some serious monies and even live off your profits .

That is never understood by a trader with just a year or so behind them - they are mere virgins - pure clean and untouched- yet to be "raped" by the markets after spending time just holding hands and getting to know each other - lol

Regards

F

 

[dbphoenix]

I compared with those skills - because emotions are involved

This is one of those defaults, like it takes 10,000 hours to learn how to trade (the 10,000 hour thing came from learning to play the violin). As I wrote in my article on fear, the trader's fears narrow down to two: fear of being wrong and fear of losing money. The first is an ego issue and is only tangential to learning how to trade. Anyone with ego issues will be plagued by problems that extend far beyond trading. The second is purely a function of how robust one's trading plan is. In all these years, I have yet to encounter anyone who has "emotional issues" who also has a thoroughly-tested and consistently-profitable trading plan AND has the discipline to follow it. Not one.

Put simply, if one is "emotional" about his trading, he's doing it wrong. The emotions thing is just an excuse.

Db

 

[highbury fx]

I would recommend you to trade stocks (equity) rather than forex.

The problem you will soon face is that there is a lot of online brokers that are out there looking to trick new traders to trade forex on very short timeframes, I would rather recommend you to learn a bit more about macroeconomics, save some money, then only then, and only then, open a trading account and start trading on fundamental predisposition.
That is how institutional hedge funds do it, they take a longer approach of one to 3 months into their trades.

How do those online brokers trick you to trade on short timeframes?

 

[tokyojoe]

For me it is very important to be emotionally remote while the set up unfolds. I used to concentrate on the set up & all it's variables to the point emotion would take hold, we are human, we are undertaking an action that involves real money, there are many things to know, I hear often that you should be able to describe your method on a single page, when I read something like this I know the author doesn't have a scooby what their talking about.

Can you learn to control emotion ? yes, because after seeing the game for what it is, actually getting under the skin of what it's relation is to you, it is possible to stand remotely from the set up while being completely focused, this takes time to learn.

A major point for me was learning to trade in my conditions, it sounds ridiculous now but I did allow myself to be governed by what I thought were "optimal market time windows"

Now, I actually enjoy it again, mainly because I have a much more relaxed mindset when I engage in the set up.

&..........................no flow no go.

 

[Bullinstu]

How do those online brokers trick you to trade on short timeframes?

You will see that there is a common thread for all online brokers, telling you to Day trade, on short instances, with a high amount of leverage exposure (200:1 is pretty standard).
High leverage solves the problem of having a little money into your account, but still be able to trade any stocks because your trading power is multiplied.
This practice becomes soon dangerous when your account is multiplied, your profit AND loss as well.
So trading account with a lot of exposure leads to trade that are very short lived (you can go to zero in a couple of minutes instead of a couple of days).

What is the point I am trying to make ? Deposit more money into your account like 10k instead of 100, and only use little leverage (4:1), that way when markets move 1% in a regular day, you can take the hit = 4 x 1% is less of a drawback then 200 x 1%.

 

[highbury fx]

You will see that there is a common thread for all online brokers, telling you to Day trade, on short instances, with a high amount of leverage exposure (200:1 is pretty standard).
High leverage solves the problem of having a little money into your account, but still be able to trade any stocks because your trading power is multiplied.
This practice becomes soon dangerous when your account is multiplied, your profit AND loss as well.
So trading account with a lot of exposure leads to trade that are very short lived (you can go to zero in a couple of minutes instead of a couple of days).

What is the point I am trying to make ? Deposit more money into your account like 10k instead of 100, and only use little leverage (4:1), that way when markets move 1% in a regular day, you can take the hit = 4 x 1% is less of a drawback then 200 x 1%.

what brokers tell you to day trade on short instances and how is this tricking you?

I understand you and chicken little from phoenix don't like leverage because you don't trust yourselves to be sensible but I don't understand how a brokerage can trick you to trade on a short time frame. Surely the decision is up to you? Is there only your way to trade ? put up 100% of the contract value and sit in it for a decade? of course not, most people on spreadbet or cfd sites trade intraday with only about 20% of trades being carried overnight. They don't do that because we've tricked them, they do that because that's their strategy.

using small amounts of leverage and not overtrading are what most retail clients do. Believe it or not they aren't the mad, finger pushing, 1000:1 leverage using, account churning, loss making lunatics you and db think they are. They are actually professional people with disposable income trying to get a secondary income or fulfilling their hobby by trying to beat the markets. Most are not people who will resign from their job because they have spun their £1,000 account in to £3,000 in 2 months.

perhaps you have suffered a loss because you overtraded and got a little excited but that doesn't mean a brokerage has tricked you. a regulated brokerage cannot entice you to trade, that has to be your decision but it sounds like you've made some wrong decions and want to blame someone else. Blame the broker, its the easiest thing to do.

 

[Bullinstu]

what brokers tell you to day trade on short instances and how is this tricking you?

I understand you and chicken little from phoenix don't like leverage because you don't trust yourselves to be sensible but I don't understand how a brokerage can trick you to trade on a short time frame. Surely the decision is up to you? Is there only your way to trade ? put up 100% of the contract value and sit in it for a decade? of course not, most people on spreadbet or cfd sites trade intraday with only about 20% of trades being carried overnight. They don't do that because we've tricked them, they do that because that's their strategy.

using small amounts of leverage and not overtrading are what most retail clients do. Believe it or not they aren't the mad, finger pushing, 1000:1 leverage using, account churning, loss making lunatics you and db think they are. They are actually professional people with disposable income trying to get a secondary income or fulfilling their hobby by trying to beat the markets. Most are not people who will resign from their job because they have spun their £1,000 account in to £3,000 in 2 months.

perhaps you have suffered a loss because you overtraded and got a little excited but that doesn't mean a brokerage has tricked you. a regulated brokerage cannot entice you to trade, that has to be your decision but it sounds like you've made some wrong decions and want to blame someone else. Blame the broker, its the easiest thing to do.

I am sorry that I used the word trick in my explanation, because I think it gave the wrong message.

What I was trying to explain is that considering the basis of macro economics, your research before opening a live position in financial markets may take a couple of months to work if not at all, but to be fundamentally correct, you need to give yourself a lot of room like a couple of months, your chances of predicting what is going to happen in a couple of months to an economy or a company are actually quite good.
Your chances of predicting whats gonna happen the next day is almost nothing, do you see where I am getting at, you have more chances of being correct if you give more time to your trades to work.

Taking that approach, having a lot of leverage makes this operation impossible, because the volatililty of your account is too high to keep a position for a couple of months, and I am sure you would agree on that.

It was only after taking classes about finance that I realised that Hedge fund use very little leverage after all and you don't need to use it as well, that is what I blame brokers for, for not educating their clients about leveraging mechanics properly.
I have written a blog post about it at this url, It explains a bit more about my point of view on the mattter :
http://bullinstu.com/2016/02/07/how-to-trade-like-a-real-trader/

 

[dbphoenix]

that is what I blame brokers for, for not educating their clients about leveraging mechanics properly.

Why would they? You catch a lot more fish by tempting them with "Open an Account with $500" than with "Open an Account with $10,000".

Db

 

[highbury fx]

I am sorry that I used the word trick in my explanation, because I think it gave the wrong message.

What I was trying to explain is that considering the basis of macro economics, your research before opening a live position in financial markets may take a couple of months to work if not at all, but to be fundamentally correct, you need to give yourself a lot of room like a couple of months, your chances of predicting what is going to happen in a couple of months to an economy or a company are actually quite good.
Your chances of predicting whats gonna happen the next day is almost nothing, do you see where I am getting at, you have more chances of being correct if you give more time to your trades to work.

Taking that approach, having a lot of leverage makes this operation impossible, because the volatililty of your account is too high to keep a position for a couple of months, and I am sure you would agree on that.

It was only after taking classes about finance that I realised that Hedge fund use very little leverage after all and you don't need to use it as well, that is what I blame brokers for, for not educating their clients about leveraging mechanics properly.
I have written a blog post about it at this url, It explains a bit more about my point of view on the mattter :
http://bullinstu.com/2016/02/07/how-to-trade-like-a-real-trader/

Using the wrong word can give a misimpression about the message you're trying to give. If you didn't mean that the brokers are trying to trick you, you shouldn't say the brokers are trying to trick you. Its a cheap shot and its not right.

no one here should be leading with the message that very high leverage is good because it isn't. I am not saying that, I am saying that there are a ton of stats that show the less leverage you use the higher percentage of winning trades you have but using leverage of 1:1 (or lower) isn't making the most of what online brokers offer you now. This isn't 1980 where you have to put up the full contract value, you have tools and benefits at your disposal because this industry is so super competitive.

Plenty of hedge funds use leverage, some are more aggressive than others and will use different multiples but there isn't a hedge fund for dummies book that on chapter 1 tells you not to use gearing. different money managers and different professional traders have different strategies and will use them all at different times.

if you wanted to risk £100 per trade and you've identified a trade where the stop loss should be 9 points away would you expect to do the same deal size as a trade where the stop loss needed to be 79 points away? I wouldn't and I doubt nor would most people who have any idea about cash management and risk to reward ratios.

your last point said you blame brokers for not educating their clients properly? really? have you seen the amount of education tools on brokers websites and how easily you can contact your 'account manager' and ask them questions. Take some responsibility for yourself, if you want to try and take money from the market at least have some respect for it and familiarise yourself with what you're doing. Being bone idle or lazy is not another reason to blame the broker.

good luck though

 

[Bullinstu]

Why would they? You catch a lot more fish by tempting them with "Open an Account with $500" than with "Open an Account with $10,000".

Db

Hahaha you are right Db Phoenix

 

[Forexmospherian]

Hahaha you are right Db Phoenix

You guys just dont get it !!

In Europe we have brokers with NO negative balance guarantees

If you risk $500 in capital in your account and you get it all wrong and have losses - all you lose is $500 - IN TOTAL - even in a rare black swan event

If you have the profitable trading plan and make profits etc - you gain - and not just a silly 2 % a week or month

Now DB will not say this

Which would you sooner do with a broker

Deposit $500 with a guarantee and use sensible leverage - ie even 100:1

Or Deposit $10k - no leverage ( back to the dark ages ) gain $200 over a few weeks then find your plan is not working and lose $2k over next few months or even worse be involved in a rare black swan and lose the LOT -- IE $10000!!!


Its a no brainer

Risk with leverage and a guarantee - is far far better then exposing all your own money with no leverage!!!


I am just amazed that you guys cannot see this

Maybe the brokers in the US you dont trust - or they dont do it - or other ???

Regards


F

 

[Bullinstu]

You guys just dont get it !!

In Europe we have brokers with NO negative balance guarantees

If you risk $500 in capital in your account and you get it all wrong and have losses - all you lose is $500 - IN TOTAL - even in a rare black swan event

If you have the profitable trading plan and make profits etc - you gain - and not just a silly 2 % a week or month

Now DB will not say this

Which would you sooner do with a broker

Deposit $500 with a guarantee and use sensible leverage - ie even 100:1

Or Deposit $10k - no leverage ( back to the dark ages ) gain $200 over a few weeks then find your plan is not working and lose $2k over next few months or even worse be involved in a rare black swan and lose the LOT -- IE $10000!!!


Its a no brainer

Risk with leverage and a guarantee - is far far better then exposing all your own money with no leverage!!!


I am just amazed that you guys cannot see this

Maybe the brokers in the US you dont trust - or they dont do it - or other ???

Regards


F

I Agree to disagree.

 

[Forexmospherian]

I Agree to disagree.

So you would prefer to risk $10000 to $500 as a new trader ??

Fine - your choice ;-)

 

[highbury fx]

I Agree to disagree.

why?

 

[dbphoenix]

You guys just dont get it !!

Nor do you. My point was and is that a beginner who is not adequately capitalized AND has no trading plan should not be trading. He should rather be studying while he becomes adequately capitalized and working on a trading plan while doing so, at which point the issue of leverage is worth examining. Until then, it's just sucking newbies into situations with which they are ill-prepared.

Db