Geopolitics and the Consequences

[Dowser]

Not true.

He consulted only a handful of bodies. They were also nobodies.

Time will tell

 

[Pat494]

It is indeed strange to see so many people mourning a vicious mass murderer.
But then again one could ask what on earth do the US and others think they are doing with having military bases in Iraq. They are definitely not welcome even by the Iraqis. They could stop wasting their money and their lives and go home.

 

[tomorton]

Well you know the history Pat.

Iraq remains a newcomer to parliamentary democracy rule and has been suffering badly in its fight with enemies of democracy within and outside their borders who are also enemies of the west. So many people rightly said we let Iraq down when we destroyed its infrastructure in the 2003 war and failed to support the emerging government post-Saddam. The US, UK and Canadian missions there today are not forces of imperial occupation: they are trying to re-dress the damage done by our useless efforts to establish a new Iraq since the overthrow of Saddam.

We're in Iraq also for the same general reasons that the Middle East is of such powerful interest to the west - we have a few isolated allies there, we have oil supplies coming from there, there are hostile states who would like to move into the region and destroy both our allies there and the oil supply but some of them would also seek to destroy our way of life here at home.

Maybe the west is trying to do too much with too little resources, that is the usual pattern of democratic governmental behaviour - too little, too late. Maybe we will eventually lose and the ME will be carved up between Russia, China+Iran, Saudi, Islamic fundamentalist states and various repulsive anti-democratic regimes stretching as far west as Algeria and as far towards Europe as Turkey. This might happen whatever we do: but it will more likely happen if we do nothing.

 

[Pat494]

Well you know the history Pat.

Iraq remains a newcomer to parliamentary democracy rule and has been suffering badly in its fight with enemies of democracy within and outside their borders who are also enemies of the west. So many people rightly said we let Iraq down when we destroyed its infrastructure in the 2003 war and failed to support the emerging government post-Saddam. The US, UK and Canadian missions there today are not forces of imperial occupation: they are trying to re-dress the damage done by our useless efforts to establish a new Iraq since the overthrow of Saddam.

We're in Iraq also for the same general reasons that the Middle East is of such powerful interest to the west - we have a few isolated allies there, we have oil supplies coming from there, there are hostile states who would like to move into the region and destroy both our allies there and the oil supply but some of them would also seek to destroy our way of life here at home.

Maybe the west is trying to do too much with too little resources, that is the usual pattern of democratic governmental behaviour - too little, too late. Maybe we will eventually lose and the ME will be carved up between Russia, China+Iran, Saudi, Islamic fundamentalist states and various repulsive anti-democratic regimes stretching as far west as Algeria and as far towards Europe as Turkey. This might happen whatever we do: but it will more likely happen if we do nothing.

Good thoughts on a very difficult problem. The West has been blundering around there like a herd of deranged elephants. for decades. The Americans are absolutely hopeless at foreign policy. They keep trying the big stick approach even though it is obvious it won't work. Their Christian morality background stops them from committing the atrocities the Russians wreaked on Chechnia in order to subdue it.
A " do nothing " approach is the better option now. Let them sort themselves out and not waste so much money and own lives. They will recover from the barbarous lunatics they have been fostering for years, in time.
Any new regimes are likely to be anti Western ! That is the legacy of the ineptitude from JFK and later Presidents.

 

[tomorton]

Good thoughts on a very difficult problem. The West has been blundering around there like a herd of deranged elephants. for decades. The Americans are absolutely hopeless at foreign policy. They keep trying the big stick approach even though it is obvious it won't work. Their Christian morality background stops them from committing the atrocities the Russians wreaked on Chechnia in order to subdue it.
A " do nothing " approach is the better option now. Let them sort themselves out and not waste so much money and own lives. They will recover from the barbarous lunatics they have been fostering for years, in time.
Any new regimes are likely to be anti Western ! That is the legacy of the ineptitude from JFK and later Presidents.

Impossible to agree. The west's (not just the US's) "blundering about" as you put it has maintained the oil flow, limited inter-state wars since the Iran-Iraq War, prevented further attempted invasions of Israel, contained geographical Islamic fundamentalist expansion, supported the overthrow of some truly nasty repressive dictatorships and limited Russian infiltration and influence into the region. Not bad for a policy of "blundering". No reason yet in sight for the west to pull out of the ME.

 

[timsk]

. . . Not bad for a policy of "blundering". No reason yet in sight for the west to pull out of the ME.

So Tom, if you were foreign secretary what would you do? Maintain the status quo, pump more money and troops into the region or gradually pull out - as the actress said to the bishop? Based on your posts, I'm guessing options 1 or 2, but not the third?
Tim.

 

[tomorton]

So Tom, if you were foreign secretary what would you do? Maintain the status quo, pump more money and troops into the region or gradually pull out - as the actress said to the bishop? Based on your posts, I'm guessing options 1 or 2, but not the third?
Tim.

Tim, when its working, keep doing it.

 

[Pat494]

Don't underestimate the resolve of the Iranians. Their ancestors also sucked in the might of the dominant power, the Roman Empire and humiliated them.

 

[Signalcalc]

Don't underestimate the resolve of the Iranians. Their ancestors also sucked in the might of the dominant power, the Roman Empire and humiliated them.

That's right, we need to be very afraid..........

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1215380561855778816/pu/vid/480x368/DsdrEpmDSs5BxDpm.mp4

 

[Signalcalc]

Some insights into the current situation USA/Iran.

 

[Atilla]

Some insights into the current situation USA/Iran.

Good analysis SC you are streets ahead of the mass public.

Dirty business all this stuff.

This goes all the way back to 9/11 inside job.
Bush's declaration about the axis of evil being Iraq - Syria and Iran.
No mention of the two terror states US and Sauidies of course.
People still think US and UK and the EU all fighting ISIS in the region when the truth is nothing but, on the contrary quite the opposite.

Still mass public not interested in the truth and they'll continue in their; we are the good guys and they are the bad and carry on about thinking what they'll have for supper.

 

[Pat494]

Well well Iran has admitted ( at last ) that they did shoot down the Ukrainian aircraft. Took some courage to admit it.
( caught red handed on tape )

 

[tomorton]

Well well Iran has admitted ( at last ) that they did shoot down the Ukrainian aircraft. Took some courage to admit it.
( caught red handed on tape )

You're right, this is an unusual admission from Iran, maybe a pointer that they 're looking for a route to stabilise things in the Gulf for now.

 

[Signalcalc]

Does middle class France have the capability to force change? Lawyers, teachers, doctors, pilots all protesting about pension reforms. Do the French (EU) police beat up the middle classes as they beat up the gilet jaunes (working classes)?

Lawyers throwing their gowns, calling for the justice minister to resign (prevented from entering their own courts by police), gilet jaunes still on the streets week after week for over a year now (little reported by MSM), there's got to be a breaking point.

French doctors, lawyers, pilots protest pension reforms

Lawyers in flowing black courtroom gowns, doctors in white coats and uniformed airline pilots marched through Paris on Monday to protest at French President Emmanuel Macron’s pension reforms.

www.france24.com

 

[Pat494]

What

Do middle class France have the capability to force change? Lawyers, teachers, doctors, pilots all protesting about pension reforms. Do the French (EU) police beat up the middle classes as they beat up the gilet jaunes (working classes)?

Lawyers throwing their gowns, calling for the justice minister to resign (prevented from entering their own courts by police), gilet jaunes still on the streets week after week for over a year now (little reported by MSM), there's got to be a breaking point.

French doctors, lawyers, pilots protest pension reforms

Lawyers in flowing black courtroom gowns, doctors in white coats and uniformed airline pilots marched through Paris on Monday to protest at French President Emmanuel Macron’s pension reforms.

www.france24.com

What exactly are the French protesting about pensions. I assume they may be going down ??

 

[counter_violent]

What

What exactly are the French protesting about pensions. I assume they may be going down ??

The French are suffering from exactly the same problems that lead to Brexit in the UK. Overburdened public services, mass uncontrolled low skill immigration, elites getting rich not just from the efforts of the working class. When the middle class feel like they are paying for everything, then you have major issues. Incompatible cultural mixing. Pandering to and legislating for minority interests. All these things go against the silent majorities interests and you are now witnessing the wholesale backlash. It won't end well....lots of temper tantrums and tears before bedtime.

 

[fibo_trader]

The French are suffering from exactly the same problems that lead to Brexit in the UK. Overburdened public services, mass uncontrolled low skill immigration, elites getting rich not just from the efforts of the working class. When the middle class feel like they are paying for everything, then you have major issues. Incompatible cultural mixing. Pandering to and legislating for minority interests. All these things go against the silent majorities interests and you are now witnessing the wholesale backlash. It won't end well....lots of temper tantrums and tears before bedtime.

Well said, Violet.

 

[Pat494]

I see on the net that a great upheaval is forecast for 14th Jan 2020. !!
That folks is only 2 days away now. and I haven't bought my ticket to Mars. Yikes...………...

 

[Pat494]

Not wishing to meddle in Iran's affairs BUT isn't it time their leadership joined the 21st century ?
Worn out old clerics should be back in their comfy mosques.
Let the educated liberal youngsters take over and not shoot them on the streets.

 

[tomorton]

Not wishing to meddle in Iran's affairs BUT isn't it time their leadership joined the 21st century ?
Worn out old clerics should be back in their comfy mosques.
Let the educated liberal youngsters take over and not shoot them on the streets.

As has been said quite a bit, Islam hasn't had its own Reformation, so its hasn't really qualified to even the join the 16th century yet. Worse, its a rare example of a religion that has regressed in many ways while becoming more widely adopted.