Dow - Which Way?

[DepthTangent]

"There is NO buy signal on my system although the DOW is up 90 points"

Then in all honesty, perhaps you should consider reviewing your system. The trouble is, by the time you get a "signal" to buy, I'am likely to be selling, as infact that is precisely what I just did at 11369 from 11264 long yesterday. Now I'am looking to buy again. Thats what a bull market is all about... you do realise that we are experiencing a bull market ?

 

[Bid A-Tool]

"There is NO buy signal on my system although the DOW is up 90 points"

Then in all honesty, perhaps you should consider reviewing your system. The trouble is, by the time you get a "signal" to buy, I'am likely to be selling, as infact that is precisely what I just did at 11369 from 11264 long yesterday. Now I'am looking to buy again. Thats what a bull market is all about... you do realise that we are experiencing a bull market ?

THIS IS NOT DAY TRADING. THIS IS SWING TRADING. POSITION CAN BE KEPT OPEN FOR DAYS. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO KEEP SAYING THIS. UP TO 10 DAYS SOMETIMES.

BUY THE WAY THIS SYSTEM CAN DAY TRADE TOO.

You jump in and out of bed with the DOW when you want and I am not really bothered.

Bid A-Tool

 

[DepthTangent]

Oh well, I cannot allow myself to be drawn into such conjecture, it is a futile exercise on my behalf. Anybody can post drivel about having a swing trading system that holds positions for 10 days or more, its gives them plenty opportunities to "adjust their stops" until a natural retracement occurs, then either claim their system seen it all along or alternatively, close their systems with minimal loss.

I as a dow day trader have little to prove, when I do post relatively specific information, the advice provides winners that can be verified by the time on the thread, clearly this is something you fail to realise you can benefit from.

I fail to see why I should contribute to this thread as tensions are clearly boiling over, and this is not the rational that I wish to associate myself with.

 

[Bid A-Tool]

Oh well, I cannot allow myself to be drawn into such conjecture, it is a futile exercise on my behalf. Anybody can post drivel about having a swing trading system that holds positions for 10 days or more, its gives them plenty opportunities to "adjust their stops" until a natural retracement occurs, then either claim their system seen it all along or alternatively, close their systems with minimal loss.

I as a dow day trader have little to prove, when I do post relatively specific information, the advice provides winners that can be verified by the time on the thread, clearly this is something you fail to realise you can benefit from.

I fail to see why I should contribute to this thread as tensions are clearly boiling over, and this is not the rational that I wish to associate myself with.

Thanks for your contribution but just to clarify what we are trying to do here. Click on the link below: My system allows people with not much time to trade the DOW. It would certainly give you a run for your money as a day trading system if that is what you wanted it to do.

http://www.investorwords.com/4844/swing_trade.html

Also don't quite understand the bit about this below you said: I thought the idea is to make a profit and not a loss?

Anybody can post drivel about having a swing trading system that holds positions for 10 days or more, its gives them plenty opportunities to "adjust their stops" until a natural retracement occurs.

 

[DepthTangent]

What is this nonsense below your forum input.

PLAN THE TRADE. TRADE THE PLAN

What is this nonsense ? You talk about a swing trade system, if you were playing a swing trade system why on earth would you have such a tight stop ? It does not make any sense whatsoever. You have also broken your golden rule of PLAN THE TRADE. TRADE THE PLAN by moving your stop.

You place a stop as an acceptence of an incorrect analysis, if your stop is breached, you accept humble pie and wait for a new entry, as defined by your system. Adjusting your stop displays a lack of faith in your system and no logical reason for why you chose the stop loss limit in the first place. Until you learn this rule you will have no discipline at all.

Sorry, no more this is ridiculous. When somebody who is adjusting their stop loss posts links to a definition of swing trading I know Iam completely out of my depth.

 

[Bid A-Tool]

What is this nonsense below your forum input.

PLAN THE TRADE. TRADE THE PLAN

What is this nonsense ? You talk about a swing trade system, if you were playing a swing trade system why on earth would you have such a tight stop ? It does not make any sense whatsoever. You have also broken your golden rule of PLAN THE TRADE. TRADE THE PLAN by moving your stop.

You place a stop as an acceptence of an incorrect analysis, if your stop is breached, you accept humble pie and wait for a new entry, as defined by your system. Adjusting your stop displays a lack of faith in your system and no logical reason for why you chose the stop loss limit in the first place. Until you learn this rule you will have no discipline at all.

Sorry, no more this is ridiculous. When somebody who is adjusting their stop loss posts links to a definition of swing trading I know Iam completely out of my depth.

If you read the thread properly......Entry was short at 11,340. I suggested to move the stop down from 11,420 yesterday (NOT a tight Stop as you suggest). when the DOW fell. A quick examination at open today and I decided to take the stop off. That is my decision and was not telling anyone to do the same. Technically the trade was not lost. The stop has not been placed back on, in order to let the trade run. If anyone wants to "short" the DOW now you may still do so. We are above 11, 350

Bid A-Tool

 

[Bid A-Tool]

What is this nonsense below your forum input.

PLAN THE TRADE. TRADE THE PLAN

What is this nonsense ? You talk about a swing trade system, if you were playing a swing trade system why on earth would you have such a tight stop ? It does not make any sense whatsoever. You have also broken your golden rule of PLAN THE TRADE. TRADE THE PLAN by moving your stop.

You place a stop as an acceptence of an incorrect analysis, if your stop is breached, you accept humble pie and wait for a new entry, as defined by your system. Adjusting your stop displays a lack of faith in your system and no logical reason for why you chose the stop loss limit in the first place. Until you learn this rule you will have no discipline at all.

Sorry, no more this is ridiculous. When somebody who is adjusting their stop loss posts links to a definition of swing trading I know Iam completely out of my depth.

...........Where the stops go in my trades my friend is entirely up to me. May even put it back at 11,420. I know it's a little "Quirky" but it matches my system.

I don't know. 311 points in the Bag. I am presently 18 points down in this trade and you get "slammed again" by people. You can't win. Oh well that's life.

..................By the way, I was a Window Cleaner for 17 years. Great job.

Bid A-Tool

 

[Quercus]

Bring back Index King!

 

[TheBramble]

Bring back Index King!

Yeah. At least you could fade him and be sure of good returns. With this monkey it's quite impossible to know what the hell is supposed to be going on. You could end up as often wrong as right. How about the toss-a-coin system bid-a-tool?

 

[Bid A-Tool]

Yeah. At least you could fade him and be sure of good returns. With this monkey it's quite impossible to know what the hell is supposed to be going on. You could end up as often wrong as right. How about the toss-a-coin system bid-a-tool?

I told you, this is all a mind game with the entered trade. You only see it as a toss of the coin 50/50. I see it differently. The trade is still in my favour. You can't see the invisible, that's the problem. I am still holding short position until it indicates otherwise.

Bid A-Tool

 

[TheBramble]

I told you, this is all a mind game with the entered trade. You only see it as a toss of the coin 50/50. I see it differently. The trade is still in my favour. You can't see the invisible, that's the problem. I am still holding short position until it indicates otherwise.

Bid A-Tool

Which trade? The short you called yesterday? Still in your favour? That's already taken your stop out. Or did you move your stop away from the approaching price action? I'm not trawling back up this thread to find out what hi-jinks you've been up to now you rascal! Don't want to get a fuzzy head again.

Are you showing us the way in your own unique style I wonder?

Averaging down a losing trade.

Moving stops to keep them from getting hit? (can't call it a loser if it's still open can you....)

No trading plan.

No set stop system.

No Risk:Reward basis.

I think you're trying to show us the way by showing us what definitely isn't the way.

You FOX you!

 

[TheBramble]

BAT - rather than play with your indicators for a while - try this.

Look at current action on the cash.

It had a 100 pt surge up right from the off - a trending day, but what's happened? Midday doldrums right now. But it took a small retrace of non-Fib proportion which indicates a propensity - though not a certainty - to go higher later.

However, we wait and see what develops when (if) the action picks up again after lunch.

There are two triangles in operation. Can you see them? (5 min chart shows them best).

A break above 360-65 with momentum or a diffident break with successful retest will indicate a high probability of further upward movement. Not definite. Just a higher probability than sideways or down.

On the other hand, if it touches 335-340 I'd be wary of assuming a decline, but ready. Depends on the subsequent momentum.

This is why most (all?) indicators are pretty useless. All you need to know is in what's happening RIGHT NOW.

All of the above is valid at THIS point in time only. You need IMHO to be doing this analysis every minute you're trading.

 

[Bid A-Tool]

Which trade? The short you called yesterday? Still in your favour? That's already taken your stop out. Or did you move your stop away from the approaching price action? I'm not trawling back up this thread to find out what hi-jinks you've been up to now you rascal! Don't want to get a fuzzy head again.

Are you showing us the way in your own unique style I wonder?

Averaging down a losing trade.

Moving stops to keep them from getting hit? (can't call it a loser if it's still open can you....)

No trading plan.

No set stop system.

No Risk:Reward basis.

I think you're trying to show us the way by showing us what definitely isn't the way.

You FOX you!

I lifted the Stop off the 11,340 point for my benefit at around opening trade. It was my decision. Go and ask JillyB what I did. I posted it as I did it.

For those that followed my trade you didn't loose any money. I am still in the trade personally. You can still enter the short now if you wish because the DOW is presently 11,357 which is above the initial entry point of 11,340. A better position. I have not lost this trade yet.

Do you understand my point? Are we going up or down. That is the question?

Bid A-Tool

 

[counter_violent]

I told you, this is all a mind game with the entered trade. You only see it as a toss of the coin 50/50. I see it differently. The trade is still in my favour. You can't see the invisible, that's the problem. I am still holding short position until it indicates otherwise.

Bid A-Tool

Your mistake here if I might say so, was to alter your thinking on the stops situation, due to mild pressure from those who have decided that tight stops are where its at ( you can't please everyone all of the time) so why even bother ?

Your second mistake was to shy away from your intended " trade management plan " ( a form of averaging ) or ( multiple entries ) again by trying to soften the edges, again some mild pressure.( you can't please everybody all of the time) so why bother ?

What you need to do here is set out both of the above so as they are not open to interpretation, then just get on with it I M H O

As there are no indicators forthcoming you are bound to attract criticism ( lack of something tangible to evaluate)

Ref Post * 93

hope you will find all the above as useful criticism

C V

 

[Quercus]

What's a triangle?

 

[Bid A-Tool]

Look everyone. Lets look at it simply. Trade was entered at 11,340 (SHORT ORDER). Has this trade been lost? YES OR NO by moving the stop down from 11,420 to 11,340 yesterday. The answer is no.

The trade is still on is it not? because the DOW is above 11,340. This means you can still enter a short now and put your "Stop Loss" at 11,420 and we are still in the same position we were when we entered the trade. You haven't lost any money have you by following my system so far.

I don't control how the DOW moves do I? It's like you are blaming me for the DOW rise today. Trade is still on despite what everyone is saying. Come on someone back me up.

Follow the trade and where are we really?

Come on JillyB, back me up.

Bid A-Tool

 

[counter_violent]

Look everyone. Lets look at it simply. Trade was entered at 11,340. Has this trade been lost? YES OR NO by moving the stop down from 11,420 to 11,340 yesterday. The answer is no.

The trade is still on is it not? because the DOW is above 11,340. This means you can still enter a short now and put your "Stop Loss" at 11,420 and we are still in the same position we were when we entered the trade. You haven't lost any money have you by following my system so far.

I don't control how the DOW moves do I? It's like you are blaming me. Trade is still on despite what everyone is saying. Come on someone back me up.

Follow the trade and where are we really?

Bid A-Tool

lol I have been backing you up ..........I guess you can't read between the lines

C V

 

[DepthTangent]

Well to give him his due, he says he is operating a swing strategy, so therefore it could be considered early to take profits at 11260. However even 20% of the trade at that point may have been wiser, thats assuming he aint got a 1 quid SB on.

The Dow is trading around 11350, for a swing strategy based around holding a position for a week or so, and creating at the outset a stop loss of 80 pips displays naivety. Intra day, the Dow can move well over 80 pips and in fact moved 200 the other day, granted this is quite a rare move. However this demonstrates that a stop of 80 pips for what is allegedly a swing system is lacking experience, thought and rational.

Here are a couple of quotes.

"I have now moved my "Stop Loss" to 11,340 (Entry point) for the last trade. This trade can no longer be called a Loss trade if it was to hit that level."

You have subsequently lifted this stop. Why ? What logical reason was there to adjust the stop so early into a swing trade, and why lift it if you have no intention of upholding the essential activity it is performing.

PLAN THE TRADE. TRADE THE PLAN !

"I am holding the position as I feel there is still further to fall in my opinion. I will aim to take maximum profits."

Considering this is a swing system... you are considering holding it longer, less than one day after opening it.. So you should be, it goes without saying and does not need any clarification.

Previously you mentioned that your system was based on pure logic and probability, you then went on to say that in "your opinion" the market had more selling to do, now is this not a clash of philosophy ? If you are going to trade pure math, logic and probability, there is no room for opinion sir, and it is these opinions that have infected your judgement when adjusting your stop and which you subsequently do not enforce when it is breached. So you are now trading on a whim, a whim that suggests the initial logical reason for maintaining the trade is still valid, however this negates the logic for adjusting the stop.

Clearly the biggest issue is the size of the stop, 80 pips... for a swing trade on the DOW !

For a swing trade on the DOW, increase your stop 3 fold and lower your stake proportionately. The reason for moving the stop to prevent a loss situation is not completely crazy, but doing that in tandem without taking partial profit and then lifting it when the new stop is breached has no basis for long term success.

 

[TheBramble]

BAT - When you went short yesterday, at what level did you get filled? What was your initial stop? Where is your stop now? Have you moved it UP at any point since taking the trade? When (what will have to happen) will you start moving it down to follow (any) short price action? Where will you take full or partial profit?

Humour aside for the moment, I'm missing the meat of what you're about. It seems ill defined. Undefined actually. If you're really trading this way you wont be for long.

And I don't think anyone is 'blaming' you for what the market's doing? If you're sensing any 'focus' in your direction it's because you're not making much sense. Just my view.

 

[TheBramble]

Post #250

By 'successfully' retest I mean the level (any level) is tested and rebuffs the action.

So a successful test from 'above' means the level is touched and then the price moves away (back up).

I know some call that an unsuccessful test - but that's incorrect usage. You've been told...