I am getting sick and tired of the SB's all the time complaining of traders taking advantage of a lagging feed. Today the SB's feed is incredible fast and it is very seldom one can actually take advantage of it. They do so only as a means of dismantling short term traders. Most serious traders use live exchange feed together with the order depth book, as a basic tool for getting in and out of a trade. The SB is responsible for the quoted price, and should execute on the price they offer, even if it is a fast moving market. The only time a rejection could be justified is due to network latency or a vastly incorrect price. Today the broadband connections is so fast, so it is really a minor problem for them. The truth is rather, the SB's (no one mentioned) is getting greedier over time and wants more profit, even if it's obtained by dishonest systematic methods. The SB cannot expect to cover all the positions 100%, this is part of the game. It is about time that the SB industry show maturity enough and stop using worlds like "overtrading" (Simon's own expression).
Best Thread Capital Spreads
brutusdog
Guest
- Messages
- 759
- Likes
- 194
charting
please please please improve the following.......
charting...so that there is a viable alternative to ig's advanced charts, this would make life so much better.
fill time...90% of the time you get filled at the quoted price but its a real pain when it takes ages, finally get filled then try to get the stops in while also keeping an eye on price. especially when your doing very short term stuff like a few mins.
also has anyone else experienced the fact that firefox will sometimes crash / shut down when using c.s. haven't a clue why? it never happens with any other sites.
please please please improve the following.......
charting...so that there is a viable alternative to ig's advanced charts, this would make life so much better.
fill time...90% of the time you get filled at the quoted price but its a real pain when it takes ages, finally get filled then try to get the stops in while also keeping an eye on price. especially when your doing very short term stuff like a few mins.
also has anyone else experienced the fact that firefox will sometimes crash / shut down when using c.s. haven't a clue why? it never happens with any other sites.
lurkerlurker
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,482
- Likes
- 150
I'm sure he has other things to do other than reading this thread! Anyway, he usually drops and in posts 2/3 time per month, so I don't think he is missing so to speak. His contributions are useful, but this thread is a good forum for CS discussion, and would continue to be useful even if he never stopped by again.
Also, I'm sure he gets sick of the whinging sometimes...you can't please all of the people all of the time. I think we ought to remember, when making complaints and suggestions, the difference between what is a CS issue and what is a bucket shop issue. The latter can't/won't be fixed by CS or anybody else.
davecrom01
Member
- Messages
- 83
- Likes
- 3
Well, I have my futuresbetting.com access.
I have been assured by the chap who gave me access that I am NOT on a demo platform, but on a simulator. The prices, execution time, and price depth visibility are 100% live and identical to the live platform.
My thoughts so far:
Lightning fast order placement and confirmation.
Great visibility of CME direct access market place.
Platform is a little clunky, but I'm still getting used to it.
Of course this all may change when I start throwing real money at them, esp. once I get over the few quid a pip stage and start trading larger amounts.
I have been assured by the chap who gave me access that I am NOT on a demo platform, but on a simulator. The prices, execution time, and price depth visibility are 100% live and identical to the live platform.
My thoughts so far:
Lightning fast order placement and confirmation.
Great visibility of CME direct access market place.
Platform is a little clunky, but I'm still getting used to it.
Of course this all may change when I start throwing real money at them, esp. once I get over the few quid a pip stage and start trading larger amounts.
You think!?
lurkerlurker
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,482
- Likes
- 150
Ask for access to NinjaTrader. You can trial NinjaTrader for free independent of FB. It is a nice platform.
Well, it is quite clear that Simon has cut down on his time on this board. This is what is to be expected as CS grows. Anyway like you, I find it interesting and useful when he does stop by with his comments.
About whining, as long as people use good language and present their issues with facts, I don't see a problem. The face of the SB "Bucket shops" industry is changing quickly, and in order to cope with increasing competition, they have to adapt. One just has to go back a year or so to see the difference both in spread and execution. The mainstream SB trader is also getting more aware, sophisticated and demanding when it comes to "fair play", and that, in combination with MifID's new directives, will change the industry in a major way in the years to come.
Phil Mibbutz
Experienced member
- Messages
- 1,860
- Likes
- 58
A few posts back someone mentioned that CS has now removed the facility for cancelling triggered orders that haven't been filled. Wasn't it argued elsewhere that this is against the new SB rules?
davecrom01
Member
- Messages
- 83
- Likes
- 3
As far as I know Phil it is within the rules.
I still find the most criminal activity (not in the literal sense you understand) is the delay between placing an order and the CS decision as to wether to fill you or not (after a good look where the price has gone). I mean, I can understand it (just about!!) when its a market order. But, what annoys the hell out of me is if I have my order on the books 10 or 15 minutes in advance, waiting for the price to reach my chosen entry level - clearly stating my price, and my bet size - in clear view of the dealers I'm sure - and it still takes an eon for them to "decide" to take it or not when it hits. Now THAT is what makes me doubt that its really about them laying off the trade, or hedging it....
Can you imagine walking into the bookies 15 minutes before the Grand National, asking for a price on Silver Bullet, being quoted some odds, telling them you are going to bet £100 on it, and then letting them wait for the first 5 minutes of the race to be underway before they let you know if they have accepted your bet or not.
lurkerlurker
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,482
- Likes
- 150
I think it was argued pretty convincingly by stevespray if I recall that the general principles of contract state that an offer may be withdrawn at any time prior to an unqualified acceptance. However, if there is no software facility to do so then in my view you can only withdraw the offer by telephone, which isn't always practical.
Simon tried to argue that allowing clients to withdraw offers was allowing them to print pips, which is with respect nonsense. If they are not aware of your order and have not filled it, it cannot affect their risk profile and you should be entitled to withdraw it. If they have filled it, then too bad for the client. However, Simon says that clients would cancel trades which have gone against them which have not yet been filled. I think that is fair given that CS can cancel trades which have moved in the clients favour if they are outside the spread when the dealer sees it, so why can't the client cancel a trade which is unfilled and the market has moved more than the spread against them? Surely for CS to fill that would be an "invalid price" in the same way?
An example will draw out the distinction.
Client tries to buy FTSE at 6500/1. Trade goes to a dealer (ie isn't automatically filled). 15 seconds later when the dealer sees the trade, FTSE is quoted 6504/5. Trade rejected on invalid price (as trade price is outside the spread of the current quote). This trade is rejected despite the true price for the FTSE being the same as the CS price at the time the client clicked on the trade. This is usually more of a problem in fast markets, however tough luck for the client - she doesn't get the price.
Client tries to buy FTSE at 6500/1. Trade goes to dealer as before. 10 seconds later client notices that CS now quote FTSE at 6498/9. Client does not want to buy at 6501 when he could buy at 6499. Order not filled so CS aren't aware of it - it should be fair to cancel the order. However, due to the platform, the client has no choice. 5 seconds later the dealer sees the price, which is now worse off at 6496/7. Trade gets filled despite the current quote deviating from the trade price by more than the spread. Optionally, if this was a bet of size, the dealer can hedge in the market at a better price, effectively arbitraging the client with the market by simultaneously selling a contract for X and buying it for Y when X>Y.
No fair.
The client should be able to cancel a pending order which has moved. If CS aren't aware of it because their dealers have not filled it, it cannot possibly affect them and the client should be entitled to withdraw their offer before acceptance.
Alternatively, if CS do not wish to allow this, they should fill all trades done on correct prices. This in effect would mean that if I bought the FTSE at 6501 and that was correct at the time, and 15 seconds later when the dealer sees it the market is X points higher, the dealer should check if the price was fair at the time I clicked - in the absence of a pricing error I should get the trade, even if the market is worse off.
I understand that CS couldn't do the latter example, as trades of size couldn't be effectively hedged. I think the only fair option for them is to continue to reject trades where the price has moved more than the spread in the clients favour by the time the order reaches a dealer, but also to reject trades where the price has moved against the client by more than the spread as being on equally invalid price.
Before anyone tells me that it is easier to sell into a rising market at the exchange, and if you want to join the bid in a rising market you won't get filled, this is comparing apples and oranges. At the exchange you are either filled or not. If an order isn't filled you may withdraw it. If it is filled you get your price. With CS you put an order into the system and whether it is filled or not will depend on which way the market moves between agreeing to deal and CS seeing your order. This isn't fair.
As far as this being against the new SB rules, I have no idea. I suspect that even if it is the regulator will take long enough to make SB firms aware of this. I notice already the drastic differences between how the SB firms have responded to the MiFID. For example, have Capital Spreads published an execution policy yet? I don't know if they have to or not, however other firms have chosen to be a little more transparent about how they execute following the directive coming into force.
Finally, CMC allow you to withdraw an offer before acceptance. So do other firms. If Simon is correct that this allows people to print risk free pips over news, perhaps he should get an account with them!
lurkerlurker
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,482
- Likes
- 150
I agree. I would be vary wary of trading on a platform which doesn't allow you to cancel an unfilled order for example. We should have similar transparency in SB as we do in the underlying market. I'm getting a FuturesBetting account soon, so that should be interesting.
oiltanker
Established member
- Messages
- 955
- Likes
- 89
I'd be a bit worried if my trading style depended on the actual precise entry rather than where the stop goes that invalidates the trade plan? 
i can get caught up in 'short time frame fever' , its only natural, but funny enough i have had a couple of occasions when i couldn't get out of a trade but it went in my favour anyway for another 10pts
i have heard DMA brokers also have problems and that the min cost of the trade works out about the same in the end. Maybe someone could start a FB thread. £10 a pt is too high for me still but there may come a time. ; )
i can get caught up in 'short time frame fever' , its only natural, but funny enough i have had a couple of occasions when i couldn't get out of a trade but it went in my favour anyway for another 10pts
i have heard DMA brokers also have problems and that the min cost of the trade works out about the same in the end. Maybe someone could start a FB thread. £10 a pt is too high for me still but there may come a time. ; )
lurkerlurker
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,482
- Likes
- 150
I'd be a bit worried if my trading style depended on the actual precise entry rather than where the stop goes that invalidates the trade plan?
i can get caught up in 'short time frame fever' , its only natural, but funny enough i have had a couple of occasions when i couldn't get out of a trade but it went in my favour anyway for another 10pts
i have heard DMA brokers also have problems and that the min cost of the trade works out about the same in the end. Maybe someone could start a FB thread. £10 a pt is too high for me still but there may come a time. ; )
It isn't a case of that. Obviously the entry only forms part of the trade. However, when you only get the trades which have moved against you and not the trades which move in your favour, it is harder to profit. I don't trade timeframes lower than 1 hour anyway, so it isn't too much of an issue, but I prefer to trade with a bucket shop which has a "fairer" system when it comes to pulling orders.
oiltanker
Established member
- Messages
- 955
- Likes
- 89
thanks.
apparently the theory is that dma brokers work on commission so 'want you to win' whereas a market maker might take a different view? So maybe dma is better for over £10pt. i'd be interested in the results.
one point i don't get if s/b means you are trading a derivative rather than actual goods then why would dma matter? one is still not buying a physical lot size of currency like in forex etc?
or is it just a case of execution?
apparently the theory is that dma brokers work on commission so 'want you to win' whereas a market maker might take a different view? So maybe dma is better for over £10pt. i'd be interested in the results.
one point i don't get if s/b means you are trading a derivative rather than actual goods then why would dma matter? one is still not buying a physical lot size of currency like in forex etc?
or is it just a case of execution?
davecrom01
Member
- Messages
- 83
- Likes
- 3
Hi Lurker.
Unfortunately I can't do that. I trade FOREX. Ninja Trader can only trade with 1 broker - and that's GAIN capital.
Cheers.
FXSCALPER2
Established member
- Messages
- 964
- Likes
- 281
It is just a case of execution, of course. In terms of what you are trading, it makes zero difference. The problem SB companies have is, their business model is based on having lots of losing traders. They are bookies, so when you win they lose and vise versa.
lurkerlurker
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,482
- Likes
- 150
Silly question, but I trust you mean ECN/interbank forex rather than the Merc futs? Also, can you do ECN/interbank/spot FX trading through FB? I thought they only did exchange traded stocks and futs...
davecrom01
Member
- Messages
- 83
- Likes
- 3
Yeah sorry - should have been clearer. I mean ECN not Mercs. You can trade various forex related instruments through FB yes. I suppose I can always stick with my tried and tested metatrader MQL4 indicators to watch the price, and then use FB to actually trade through.
You need to understand that I am not an experienced trader, and a year ago was very new to spread betting. I tried SB as I had profited from holding gold, did not have spare cash to buy more, and naively thought I could take advantage of the bull market with much less capital by using SB. Didn't work! Did not help that I got in just before the big price drop in mid-2006.
I have never traded real FX, I have only used SB. I ended up doing short-term trades because I seemed to be able to make some profits sometimes, whereas I had absolutely no idea what I was doing over longer time-frames!
At the time that CS had a slower price feed, I discovered this by accident as I was using IG charts as default, because they were better than CS - they did not lag behind the price feed - while trading on CS for better spreads. I did not intentionally seek out a faster feed than CS, but when it stared me in the face I did not see why I should not take advantage. When they tightened up the feed, they got back all the money I had gained! Plus lots of small spreads on all those short-term bets.....
I think, from memory, I was trading normally, and the profits came from their tight spreads and fast execution, but I am not 100% sure.
I mean short-term trading. I don't even know what the Z order book is. I do still use the IG price feed as well as CS, and as the IG price seems to dart about and change more frequently than CS, it can sometimes give an extra clue as to the direction of the market, but there is no significant and regular delay between the two any more.
