Calling all "Senior Members T2W" Experienced traders! Help Newbies?

[SOCRATES]

"Traffic"

Gardan,

The JB that members are referring to on the Zenda thread is not DaveJB. It is John S Bartlett. He used to post here under another name and then Zenda appeared. He has a website selling CD's and other material to traders but I don't want to post a link as I don't want to increase the traffic to his site.

No, that is right, you have done enough mischief already.

 

[Glenn]

"I don't think this tread can reasonably continue, in the interesting manner in which it developed, until Socrates provides the board with some answers"

All very well voicing your opinion Stevespray, but for all we know you and I and others are some kind of Agent with an agenda, rather than some normal geezer sitting there in front of your screen interested in the thread.

We are all invisible and can pretend to be who we like and say anything.

When you stand and listen to someone on a soap-box at Hyde Park Corner, he may be intelligent and talking rubbish or thick and taking sense.
The point is that credibility and credentials are not available but even so that doesn't matter.
What matters is the CONTENT of what is being said, not who said it, or whether they are a guru or a fraud, an expert or a loony.

You are getting a message. Now you want to know if the messenger is credible. You want your cake and eat it too. You want it all on a plate for you to digest as you sit there at your screen.
You want information to come to you in this way, correct information free of charge from a validated source.
Well it would be nice if life was like that wouldn't it. We would all like that.
But it's not.
So all you can do is look at content and decide for yourself. There is no other qualification.
It's the same as the markets - look at the content and decide for yourself, and don't expect any information from any source to come with credentials other than the prices and quotes you can see. And even if credentials are provided, experts still get it wrong.
We can all debate endlessly about posters, as if we are all somehow genuine ourselves. It is a waste of time and energy imo.
Instead of threads being a platform for people who just like to sound off and feel important and waffle on and try to be helpful (just like I am now), it would be better if people just shut up and let the main contributor (Albert in this case) get on with the job.
Let us receive the content and debate it and ask questions etc, not constantly look for reassurance about the provider.
Instead he has now to answer for his credibility, which is pointless. And not only that, to answer to people who have not established any credibility themselves (including me), as if somehow they are above all that.
And they may be genuine and therefore affronted by my suggestion that they may not be. So you can see how silly it all is.

Glenn

 

[Gardan]

Jumpoff

Gardan,
My name is not JumpOff or JO, and I do not live in Dark County. I am not a Veteran Member - although I still get a chuckle everytime I see that under my name. The next thing you know, someone will give me 5 gold stars (what are those things anyway?) Zenda does not really look like Catherine Zeta Jones, and Trader333 is probably shorter, wider, and plumper than that photo he uses (no offense - I love that avatar!). Unless you were able to see me physically typing this message, and then watch it appear on the BB, you really have no way to ascertain who I am. The nature of an internet BB is that you have no way to know who is posting or what their motives are.

I still think this is a great place to spend time, and I hope you do too.

Breathe deeply, evaluate the content against that which you already know to be true, and keep your crap detector handy!
JO

Jumpoff, I totally agree that a persons identity should remain unknown purely on the grounds of security, I just think multiple identities are another matter. I now have your post (many moons ago on this thread) pinned to my wall.
I also agree it's a great place and have learnt a lot thus far.

Cheers

 

[barjon]

This thread certainly seems to have taken a rather bizarre turn.

I'll only point out that if one has no way of evaluating truth without character references, he's most likely going to wind up a very confused puppy.

dpb

hear, hear!!

to those who say they will only listen to those who are "experts" I would echo chump by reflecting that there are many people with their backsides hanging out of their trousers because they placed their trust in "experts".

to those who say they will only listen to "nice" people I wonder why you shouldn't appreciate the picture because it has an ugly frame.

once again an interesting thread has degenerated into chaos - that wouldn't be so bad if it was because of raging disagreement about the primary subject matter, but it's such a pity that it's because of peripheral incidentals.

good trading

jon

 

[SOCRATES]

And when the hard facts are laid in front of an audience to leave them in no doubt that trading is not a silly little game than just anyone can play, and of the perils of not using stops, and of trying to trade in instruments live before they are ready, and of the perils of disregarding this and in addition of attempting to trade multiples in disregard of all of the previous, well, they are asking to be wiped, is that not correct ?
And if the tutor cannot get them to see sense, and neither can the broker, well, who can ? And in addition if the multiples chosen are of a very fast, very volatile instrument, it compounds it, does it not ?
And if repeated warnings and bollickings do not do curb all of this, then we are on a hiding to nothing, are we not ?

Therefore, I began to post on this thread because the mission was "TO HELP NEWBIES" and not "TO TEACH NEWBIES". As a consequence of my experiences with all of the above as ingredients and in addition the kind of filth one is rewarded with as a consequence of SOUR GRAPES from an idiot, and a persistent stalker, and a failure as a consequence of his own conduct, one is not going to be motivated to trust anyone anymore, is one ?

 

[Sirlosealot]

Very quickly because I'm in a hurry to get somewhere -both in the physical sense as in just out the door as well as in the trading sense -

Dont you think we have all done this bit of the discussion to death. I agree with Db. We have to make up our minds on imperfect evidence. Just like the market. I have and I want the thread to continue as it was.

Sadly I dont think that Socrates giving a long explanation would help, as the detractors would just take this as an opportunity to draw us all into another extended round of nitpicking and chasing our tails. Sadly this has been demonstrated as being very easy to do. As well as taking days to get through it would also enflame and polarise. I think we should all agree just to lay off and let the thread resume properly.

Please let Socrates say what he has to say. What is happening here is that a small group of hecklers have totally disrupted the meeting. This is not democracy. In democracy if hecklers refuse to let someone speak they are ejected from the meeting. If you want to judge Socrates please do it after he has had his say. He's not harming anyone and those that dont like what he says can stay away.

If the tone of this post is a bit over the top I apologies. Its just my opinion but I am in a hurry and I feel that there is a concerted effort not just to warn us but to actively disrupt. Sorry but thats the way I see it.

So could we perhaps just agree to disagree and lay off this subject and get back to business - please.

Regards

Gerard

 

[BBB]

I think some very serious and grave questions have come to light here.

We all have done things in the past which we can see were mistakes with the benefit of hindsight, though at the time may have seemed amusing - although these particular questions I believe do go beyond these realms.

I think any person of sound mind, body and soul would say that such racist behaviour these days is intolerable - and the days of previous generations where such attitudes were acceptable are long gone.

Personally, I believe Socrates owes an explanation to us all - if he wishes to be taken seriously. Ignoring the point or casually brushing aside such a dark shadow in such a cavalier way asks further questions.

Calling other people 'idiots' and 'failures' when they have a different way of communicating, or request factual information from a self proclaimed expert, especially when it is unlikely he has ever met the individual rings alarm bells in my mind. It encourages thoughts that may be the individual is blinkered, and ridden full of various prejudices (that will surely cripple one in the markets) that are at stark contradiction to what he (Socrates) dictates.

Markets either move up, down or sideways. Socrates is either guilty, innocent, or he refuses to explain leaving you all in limbo. What ever response comes out (if one ever does) some of you will fade the response, some of you will go with it. Personally however, if such dark malicious accusations were made against myself, I'd want to put the record straight. Wouldn't you?

Quite interestingly, it seems that some people already believe that he is innocent - purely from the long drawn out content of his posts! Again this is an interesting point as it comes straight back to perception. Do I believe he is guilty? Well, lets just say it wouldn't surprise me if he was. I base that opinion purely upon the way I have seen him attempt to bully and ridicule people before (the market is making new lows). I do however hope that I am wrong.

Anyway, I dont come by this way as often as I used to - so I hope the thread gets back to where it was.

 

[BBB]

Very quickly because I'm in a hurry to get somewhere -both in the physical sense as in just out the door as well as in the trading sense -

Dont you think we have all done this bit of the discussion to death. I agree with Db. We have to make up our minds on imperfect evidence. Just like the market. I have and I want the thread to continue as it was.

Sadly I dont think that Socrates giving a long explanation would help, as the detractors would just take this as an opportunity to draw us all into another extended round of nitpicking and chasing our tails. Sadly this has been demonstrated as being very easy to do. As well as taking days to get through it would also enflame and polarise. I think we should all agree just to lay off and let the thread resume properly.

Please let Socrates say what he has to say. What is happening here is that a small group of hecklers have totally disrupted the meeting. This is not democracy. In democracy if hecklers refuse to let someone speak they are ejected from the meeting. If you want to judge Socrates please do it after he has had his say. He's not harming anyone and those that dont like what he says can stay away.

If the tone of this post is a bit over the top I apologies. Its just my opinion but I am in a hurry and I feel that there is a concerted effort not just to warn us but to actively disrupt. Sorry but thats the way I see it.

So could we perhaps just agree to disagree and lay off this subject and get back to business - please.

Regards

Gerard

Gerard - I hear what you are saying - but do you think that people will wish to participate in a discussion when there is someone who holds such extreme views on basic human rights and freedom?

If you were from an ethnic minority would knowing people of a certain disposition encourage you to air your equally valid views?

 

[kevin546]

BBB

As others have already said it is the content of the messages that we are presented with concerning trading that we should be concentrating on. If the content is brought into question from a trading perspective then that is fine. The issue of matters outside this remit are for each individual to consider for him or herself. It's simple Socrates does not HAVE to explain himself for this thread to continue, it is a matter of posters wishing to remain interested in this thread if they are willing to read any new posts on the subject of trading from Socrates based on the content of the message and NOT who the message is from.

We have only heard one side of the story and as someone has already attempted to remind us using this medium is very easy to form the wrong perception from the word, or sentence used by another poster. How for example do you know that the comments made by Socrates in a recent post are directed at 13, there maybe a wider situation here than you think.

I agree entirely with most that have posted this WAS a very interesting thread and the best way to move forward is to stay if you accept the content of messages and post on them rather than to do as I have and respond to another request for Socrates to answer a charge against him. If he decides to post on these issues that is up to him end of the matter. If you do not accept that then leave so that the thread can begin to get back to the matter of trading.

Regards

Kevin

 

[barjon]

bbb

To judge from his posts, socrates is not setting out to make friends. If he was then the questions you raise may be relevant and we would all want to hear his side of the story.

Again to judge from his posts, socrates is trying to highlight the perils of the market, to open people's eyes and minds, and to help them develop as competent traders. He may, or may not, have a hidden agenda - there has been no evidence of one so far - but so what?

You say you hope this thread gets back to where it was. That can only happen if people are prepared to concentrate their attention on the message and not the messenger.

jon

 

[BBB]

Fair points.

My point is more at the stark behavioural contradictions between what Socrates dictates and his behaviour on these boards.

Also, one of you mention the trading related content of Socrates posts, but I am afraid I must agree with 13 on this point as I see very little useful content to be honest. I see a lot of carefully crafted prose that although may be valid in content, is hardly unique or cannot be obtained from any common psyo-stuff you come across elsewhere.

May be I am a fool. But I'd rather be a fool and know it, than be a bigger fool and think Im being clever.

Anyway, that is all - I dont want to disrupt this thread anymore.

Cheers.

 

[BBB]

As a quick side issue - it seems that this thread and the current issue is now running out of steam and is drawing to a natural close.

I'd just like to say how refreshing it is that during this little spat, there was no over heavy handedness or bias from the mods!

THREE CHEERS FOR THE MODS!!

Hopefully this will continue and T2W will revert back to what it used to be in the fullness of time.

 

[Rognvald]

I stated that I would not post again on this site. However I have been lurking & have been drawn back to make one more post – this one is final and I will not return again to discuss it further.

I would like to build a little on what has been said by Glenn. The first method of evaluating the credibility of posters on Bulletin Boards like this one is by reading what they have to say and making a judgement on the content and tone of their posts. This can sometimes be very difficult as many posters are well practiced in the art of deception - particularly in being economical with the truth. Beyond that there are only the more traditional methods such as telephone and face-to-face contact.

The main problem that the majority here have is that in effect they want a free wealth recipe from a fashionable celebrity chef. They are unwilling to face up to the reality that this is what they are after. I am back here to say that there is no such thing as even one free lunch – let alone the recipe some people feel they are somehow entitled to. A handful of people posting here probably fall into the celebrity chef category and without exception I have found they are willing to help aspiring traders along the road to knowledge. Their knowledge however is their own intellectual property and it is theirs to dispose of or retain as they see fit.

Many members here are casual members who sign up for a while, quickly lose interest and are never heard from again. There are a few who go beyond this and search desperately for the non-existent “Grail”. DB Phoenix has recently commented most eloquently on these issues.

There are a few members who soldier on and take the knocks and the successes in more or less equal measure and over a period of time develop experience that equates to their view and satisfaction in interacting with their chosen market.

There are an even smaller number who are driven by what they want to do and the desire to succeed at all costs and these people will eventually find ways of succeeding.

The aspirant has much to learn from the latter but is naive in the extreme if he/she expects someone who has grown to become a professional to publicly reveal information that will have taken years to acquire and cost a great deal in one way or another.

Members and posters here do themselves a disservice when they pillory anyone with the motivation and patience to offer help publicly & gratis.

 

[SOCRATES]

As a quick side issue - it seems that this thread and the current issue is now running out of steam and is drawing to a natural close.

I'd just like to say how refreshing it is that during this little spat, there was no over heavy handedness or bias from the mods!

THREE CHEERS FOR THE MODS!!

Hopefully this will continue and T2W will revert back to what it used to be in the fullness of time.

No, because the mods are not stupid, and the mods, are very well informed indeed, and contrary to what you might say or think, have a lot of experience, and know PRECISELY who's who in the zoo, so to speak.

 

[SOCRATES]

I stated that I would not post again on this site. However I have been lurking & have been drawn back to make one more post – this one is final and I will not return again to discuss it further.

I would like to build a little on what has been said by Glenn. The first method of evaluating the credibility of posters on Bulletin Boards like this one is by reading what they have to say and making a judgement on the content and tone of their posts. This can sometimes be very difficult as many posters are well practiced in the art of deception - particularly in being economical with the truth. Beyond that there are only the more traditional methods such as telephone and face-to-face contact.

The main problem that the majority here have is that in effect they want a free wealth recipe from a fashionable celebrity chef. They are unwilling to face up to the reality that this is what they are after. I am back here to say that there is no such thing as even one free lunch – let alone the recipe some people feel they are somehow entitled to. A handful of people posting here probably fall into the celebrity chef category and without exception I have found they are willing to help aspiring traders along the road to knowledge. Their knowledge however is their own intellectual property and it is theirs to dispose of or retain as they see fit.

Many members here are casual members who sign up for a while, quickly lose interest and are never heard from again. There are a few who go beyond this and search desperately for the non-existent “Grail”. DB Phoenix has recently commented most eloquently on these issues.

There are a few members who soldier on and take the knocks and the successes in more or less equal measure and over a period of time develop experience that equates to their view and satisfaction in interacting with their chosen market.

There are an even smaller number who are driven by what they want to do and the desire to succeed at all costs and these people will eventually find ways of succeeding.

The aspirant has much to learn from the latter but is naive in the extreme if he/she expects someone who has grown to become a professional to publicly reveal information that will have taken years to acquire and cost a great deal in one way or another.

Members and posters here do themselves a disservice when they pillory anyone with the motivation and patience to offer help publicly & gratis.

Rognavald, they do not understand or realise any of this.

 

[bracke]

Rognvald

Well said.
Put the situation into a nutshell.
Now we wait for those who disagree

Regards

bracke

 

[SOCRATES]

Fair points.

My point is more at the stark behavioural contradictions between what Socrates dictates and his behaviour on these boards.

Also, one of you mention the trading related content of Socrates posts, but I am afraid I must agree with 13 on this point as I see very little useful content to be honest. I see a lot of carefully crafted prose that although may be valid in content, is hardly unique or cannot be obtained from any common psyo-stuff you come across elsewhere.

May be I am a fool. But I'd rather be a fool and know it, than be a bigger fool and think Im being clever.

Anyway, that is all - I dont want to disrupt this thread anymore.

Cheers.

Youre aware of some aspects of your foolishness and not aware of other aspects.
You can be told the same thing time and time again, but you will not understand or be
able to accept it or indeed use it, until you are ready for it, and then, you will be mortified and embarrased and wonder why you were never able to understand and accept it in the first place. If you disregard the experience and knowledge of all who have gone before you in these matters, then when you make a real mess of your endeavour, you will have made a real mess of it. By then it is too late for you to mend your ways. But by the same token it would not be decent or fair of you to try to place the blame on others and to harbour persistent acrimony and deep seated resentment.

This is my experience with some failures. I am not willing to teach anymore as I am totally fed up with the carbunckle of humanity in general, but there are exceptions, but I am willing to point aspirants in the correct direction. In return they are expected to behave correctly and cooperate.

 

[nicos]

I agree with BBB. The originator of this thread asked for what amounts to practical help. I don't think he got any.

The thread has turned out to be amongst other things a psychological exchange. Now one could argue that this is all relevant to becoming a good trader but personally I don't think this is necessarily so.

It's easy to turn the conversation into what it's been turned into, because most of us, at some stage or other look for explanations as to the way we are, behave, achieve, compare to other people etc. Looking for the ultimate answer, the holy grail, is somewhere in the back of our mind. We question our education, our upbringing and other things over which we had no control but we are the results of. At times we think that we got the answer but there is always the craving for more information.

Those of us who are trading, or considering trading are, I think, more likely to look for "answers" because of the very nature of trading as has been amply illustrated in this thread and elsewhere. I wonder how many of us (not you, us) have invested in self development courses, seminars, tapes etc, only to find that the answer is always within us.

Then there are the know alls. The teachers.. helpers? Who get satisfaction in showing their superiority or making others feel dependent on them. Isn’t this the stuff religions are made of? With the promises that the best is still to come?

Not everybody is after wealth. Some people get their gratification in other ways. Many have hated wealth but no one has hated fame. There are intellectuals but there are also psychopaths. And there is always the intellectual-psychopaths. I could be the one that shot JR. And if Dr --- were to post here, he could convince many that we are all potential serial killers.

 

[SOCRATES]

bbb

To judge from his posts, socrates is not setting out to make friends. If he was then the questions you raise may be relevant and we would all want to hear his side of the story.

Again to judge from his posts, socrates is trying to highlight the perils of the market, to open people's eyes and minds, and to help them develop as competent traders. He may, or may not, have a hidden agenda - there has been no evidence of one so far - but so what?

You say you hope this thread gets back to where it was. That can only happen if people are prepared to concentrate their attention on the message and not the messenger.

jon

That is correct. I am not seeking to curry favour or make friends, trading friends, that is, because I already have a circle of my own that I have chosen. All of these have been hand trained by me. They have earned their right to everything they have enjoyed and are currently enjoying (Greetings to you all ! ).

You are correct in saying I am here to highlight perils, and moreso to open up peoples' minds, and to help them help THEMSELVES to develop as competient traders. I am not here to teach any of you, whether paid or unpaid. I am not here to give you my methodology. I am not here to recruit pupils. I am not here to sell anything. You cannot have any software. All my software programmes are bespoke. I will not make them available commercially., and I will not appoint resellers or grant concessions or licences, because I do not want to and I do not need to. The development costs which are monstrous I care not about, I just absorb them as a normal expense. Nor will I write any books for you, nor will I mentor or educate, nor will I cooperate on any basis with anyone promoting any of this, as it has been proved to me to be unwise, imprudent, and only succeeds in distracting me from what I ought not to be distracted, and in any event the successful ones remain silent and it is only the pillocks who fail through their own fault who go on and make a lot of noise in an attempt to create controversy as a their own warped view of what they perceive as their entitlement to seek revenge, which is disgusting.

 

[SOCRATES]

I agree with BBB. The originator of this thread asked for what amounts to practical help. I don't think he got any.

The thread has turned out to be amongst other things a psychological exchange. Now one could argue that this is all relevant to becoming a good trader but personally I don't think this is necessarily so.

It's easy to turn the conversation into what it's been turned into, because most of us, at some stage or other look for explanations as to the way we are, behave, achieve, compare to other people etc. Looking for the ultimate answer, the holy grail, is somewhere in the back of our mind. We question our education, our upbringing and other things over which we had no control but we are the results of. At times we think that we got the answer but there is always the craving for more information.

Those of us who are trading, or considering trading are, I think, more likely to look for "answers" because of the very nature of trading as has been amply illustrated in this thread and elsewhere. I wonder how many of us (not you, us) have invested in self development courses, seminars, tapes etc, only to find that the answer is always within us.

Then there are the know alls. The teachers.. helpers? Who get satisfaction in showing their superiority or making others feel dependent on them. Isn’t this the stuff religions are made of? With the promises that the best is still to come?

Not everybody is after wealth. Some people get their gratification in other ways. Many have hated wealth but no one has hated fame. There are intellectuals but there are also psychopaths. And there is always the intellectual-psychopaths. I could be the one that shot JR. And if Dr --- were to post here, he could convince many that we are all potential serial killers.

Nicos, practical help is what they are getting, being pointed in the right direction and being made aware of what pitfalls to avoid. But waht they want is to be taught, and I am not going to do it , and since you feel this way, you might volunteer to do it, but not me, not any more, sorry.