Brexit and the Consequences

[timsk]

. . . The wording of the question in this one is different and dangerous to the state.

Hi Split',
I appreciate your observations as 'our man on the ground' so to speak - thank you. Out of interest, I'd be interested to know what the wording is that you refer to above? Btw, I'm with you on this issue - I'm not in favour of independence.

Personally, I don't see any parallels between today's referendum in Spain and the 'leave/remain' referendum last year here in the U.K. Yes, I voted leave last year, but I think a separate Catalan state/country serves no useful purpose and isn't in the best interests either of the people of that region or the country as a whole. Fingers crossed that it's a decisive 'no'.
Tim.

 

[counter_violent]

Hi Split',
I appreciate your observations as 'our man on the ground' so to speak - thank you. Out of interest, I'd be interested to know what the wording is that you refer to above? Btw, I'm with you on this issue - I'm not in favour of independence.

Personally, I don't see any parallels between today's referendum in Spain and the 'leave/remain' referendum last year here in the U.K. Yes, I voted leave last year, but I think a separate Catalan state/country serves no useful purpose and isn't in the best interests either of the people of that region or the country as a whole. Fingers crossed that it's a decisive 'no'.
Tim.

It can't be anything other than a decisive yes. No voters stayed at home, therefore it all comes down to turnout numbers and nothing else. A large turnout spells disaster for Madrid.

The bigger problem is that the Catalonian's become galvanised because of todays actions. Rajoy doesn't seem to have a clue.

 

[Atilla]

I don't think either side achieved anything.

People should see what's in store for them.

United they stand divided they'll fall.


Much ado about nothing but greed ultimately leading both sides to lose.


Barking about the old world wars, Franco and much water under the bridge. Not like Spain would have been better off being one of the satellite countries of the old USSR.

Bunch of morons. They should be grateful Franco steered the country away from the disasters of a communist socialist regime. I know it came at a cost and I'm no fascist but as I say barking on about old history as if it justifies the stupidity of politicians today is daft.



As for our BJ, guy is gone berserk on his ambition to become PM and get to no 10 he'll do anything irrespective of countries interests. He knows the only strong support his going to get is likely to be from core of hard brexiters and playing his last hand. Bumbling buffoon. He was a remainer when London Mayor and everything he has done since has been his single minded determination to get to no 10. I hope people can see that as time passes by and his actions become more desperate.

 

[counter_violent]

I don't think either side achieved anything.

People should see what's in store for them.

United they stand divided they'll fall.


Much ado about nothing but greed ultimately leading both sides to lose.


Barking about the old world wars, Franco and much water under the bridge. Not like Spain would have been better off being one of the satellite countries of the old USSR.

Bunch of morons. They should be grateful Franco steered the country away from the disasters of a communist socialist regime. I know it came at a cost and I'm no fascist but as I say barking on about old history as if it justifies the stupidity of politicians today is daft.



As for our BJ, guy is gone berserk on his ambition to become PM and get to no 10 he'll do anything irrespective of countries interests. He knows the only strong support his going to get is likely to be from core of hard brexiters and playing his last hand. Bumbling buffoon. He was a remainer when London Mayor and everything he has done since has been his single minded determination to get to no 10. I hope people can see that as time passes by and his actions become more desperate.

Like I told you months ago. In order for Mogg to rise to the top, a stalking horse is required to challenge May. Boris, is probably in that role. I don't see a route for him to become PM ever !

There's a fringe meeting of the Bruges group tomorrow in the great hall, Town Hall Manchester, where Mogg and Minford are speakers. The hall holds 430 people. I expect they are already queuing round the block for a place!

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/500323/town_hall/7290/see_what_the_town_hall_looks_like_inside/3

 

[Atilla]

Like I told you months ago. In order for Mogg to rise to the top, a stalking horse is required to challenge May. Boris, is probably in that role. I don't see a route for him to become PM ever !

There's a fringe meeting of the Bruges group tomorrow in the great hall, Town Hall Manchester, where Mogg and Minford are speakers. The hall holds 430 people. I expect they are already queuing round the block for a place!

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/500323/town_hall/7290/see_what_the_town_hall_looks_like_inside/3

I think you have about half a dozen wannabee stalking horses however that is not the problem with Moggie boy. He is about as far removed from your average man as Pluto is from Earth.

You are also forgetting all the tosh his blurted out about his super faith. Holds him self accountable to his preferred almighty and takes his marching orders from the Vatican. England is CoE and our Queen will not be amused.

At least Blair didn't mouth off about his faith or uniting all faiths under bombs until he left the PM role. Moggy boy has foot in mouth condition and only place he'll go is to check his bank balance and profits made from hovering around the upper echelons of government. He knows his not getting anywhere remotely close to a PM role. All this is simply a money making position for him.

Get real...

As for Tories, desperate times trying to steal Labour policies. Shake the money tree and all that. How embarrassing it must all be. Andrew Marr really grilled her this morning. I thought she was going to cry at one moment. Silly moo, keeps repeating same old tripe and delivered what to make the working lives of people any better? Zilch. Hollow words. Maybot indeed!

 

[counter_violent]

I think you have about half a dozen wannabee stalking horses however that is not the problem with Moggie boy. He is about as far removed from your average man as Pluto is from Earth.

You are also forgetting all the tosh his blurted out about his super faith. Holds him self accountable to his preferred almighty and takes his marching orders from the Vatican. England is CoE and our Queen will not be amused.

At least Blair didn't mouth off about his faith or uniting all faiths under bombs until he left the PM role. Moggy boy has foot in mouth condition and only place he'll go is to check his bank balance and profits made from hovering around the upper echelons of government. He knows his not getting anywhere remotely close to a PM role. All this is simply a money making position for him.

Get real...

As for Tories, desperate times trying to steal Labour policies. Shake the money tree and all that. How embarrassing it must all be. Andrew Marr really grilled her this morning. I thought she was going to cry at one moment. Silly moo, keeps repeating same old tripe and delivered what to make the working lives of people any better? Zilch. Hollow words. Maybot indeed!

Before you go to bed 866 signatories.

Some updates to digest. Brighton Pavillion is no longer green, it's turned a kind of yukky shade of yellow. Wasn't you was it ?


I think the map is looking so much better now in colour :clap:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/200606
http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=200606

 

[Splitlink]

Boxes taken to a secret location for counting. :whistling
Wonder who's counting and who's observing?


Splitlink, I always understood Spain to be 7 main regions but divided into 17 autonomous areas.

I was,probably, mistaken and you are right. I was thinking of "autonomy".

 

[Splitlink]

Hi Split',
I appreciate your observations as 'our man on the ground' so to speak - thank you. Out of interest, I'd be interested to know what the wording is that you refer to above? Btw, I'm with you on this issue - I'm not in favour of independence.

Personally, I don't see any parallels between today's referendum in Spain and the 'leave/remain' referendum last year here in the U.K. Yes, I voted leave last year, but I think a separate Catalan state/country serves no useful purpose and isn't in the best interests either of the people of that region or the country as a whole. Fingers crossed that it's a decisive 'no'.
Tim.

I'm not quite sure of the wording on ths latest but the previous one asked "Do you believe in Cataluña's right to decide?" Or something similar. The question was ambiguous.

You know politicians! It's all in the small print.

This failed ref, is, the start of the matter, Tim. Spanish politics are no longer in the hands of two main parties and the other leaders are insisting on a unified Spain but with, certainly, a reformation of the Constitution.

A good day for the media. They love something like this. Tv reporters have,ttriumphantly, claimed being able to vote twice. In some cases, three or four times.

 

[Splitlink]

It can't be anything other than a decisive yes. No voters stayed at home, therefore it all comes down to turnout numbers and nothing else. A large turnout spells disaster for Madrid.

The bigger problem is that the Catalonian's become galvanised because of todays actions. Rajoy doesn't seem to have a clue.

I think that he has a clue, mate. His problem is that he has a tiger by the tail. Other autonomies are looking at what happens, here, and he knows the internal strife that is about to be unleashed if he makes the wrong move.

He must not be underestimated. The proof is that he is in government for the third term and with a minority. The other leaders do not have his experience, more's the pity.

 

[counter_violent]

 

[timsk]

Hi c_v,
Just wondering - will you be posting a screenshot of your petition every time there's a couple of new signatures? I ask because if it has the legs to get all the way to 100k - this could turn into the longest (and arguably dullest) thread in online community forum history!

 

[tomorton]

I think that he has a clue, mate. His problem is that he has a tiger by the tail. Other autonomies are looking at what happens, here, and he knows the internal strife that is about to be unleashed if he makes the wrong move.

He must not be underestimated. The proof is that he is in government for the third term and with a minority. The other leaders do not have his experience, more's the pity.

Split - You of all of us might know - what law are the Catalonia referendum voters said to have broken?

 

[counter_violent]

Hi c_v,
Just wondering - will you be posting a screenshot of your petition every time there's a couple of new signatures? I ask because if it has the legs to get all the way to 100k - this could turn into the longest (and arguably dullest) thread in online community forum history!

Hmm, still waiting for some helpers. As with most things, it requires effort, so i'm not entirely surprised they are not queuing up offering assistance.

PS. This is quite possibly the most interesting thread in T2W's history

 

[Splitlink]

Split - You of all of us might know - what law are the Catalonia referendum voters said to have broken?

I know as much about Spain as the average Brit knows about the UK.

Do you know of any breakaway nation that did not break the law of the central government?

After democracy was reinstated a Constitution was drawn up, of which Cataluña was a part. Referendums on independence are illegal. That's as much as I know, really.

What I would say is that Rajoy has to realise, as should have realised previous governments, that he is governing a group of nations, here. Without looking up on Google, I can think of four languages. ie Catalan, Basque, Gallego and, of course, Castellano. I'm sure that there are many more.

This is like Yugoslavia. Tito held it together. When he died it broke up. Madrid is in danger of that happening here.

He is doing very well with the economy. So did Cameron and the British Conservatives but it needs a lot more than that, to govern Spain as a single unit.

 

[dbphoenix]

I know as much about Spain as the average Brit knows about the UK.

Do you know of any breakaway nation that did not break the law of the central government?

After democracy was reinstated a Constitution was drawn up, of which Cataluña was a part. Referendums on independence are illegal. That's as much as I know, really.

What I would say is that Rajoy has to realise, as should have realised previous governments, that he is governing a group of nations, here. Without looking up on Google, I can think of four languages. ie Catalan, Basque, Gallego and, of course, Castellano. I'm sure that there are many more.

This is like Yugoslavia. Tito held it together. When he died it broke up. Madrid is in danger of that happening here.

He is doing very well with the economy. So did Cameron and the British Conservatives but it needs a lot more than that, to govern Spain as a single unit.

It helps to examine why small countries, collectives, tribes, whatever one wants to call them band together in the first place. Sometimes it's for mutual economic benefit. Sometimes for shared defense. And so on, most dramatic example being conditions after the fall of the Roman Empire (or at least the Western empire).

A great many people all over the world are tired of being f*cked over. The chief problem is that they are unclear as to who it is that's doing the f*cking, so they pick the wrong people to protest against. In this regard, whether England remains in the EU or not, for example, is an irrelevance. Multiple social contracts are coming apart, and "leaders" are finding that they have no idea what to do. The US provides a prime example of this. Almost none of them have any clothes, and we face an extraordinary amount and degree of turmoil for the foreseeable future.

 

[timsk]

. . . A great many people all over the world are tired of being f*cked over. The chief problem is that they are unclear as to who it is that's doing the f*cking, so they pick the wrong people to protest against. In this regard, whether England remains in the EU or not, for example, is an irrelevance. . .

Hi dbp,
It's very true to say that a great many people all over the world are tired of being f*cked over. However, sometimes it is crystal clear exactly who it is that's doing the f*cking (the EU), as is the person or persons getting f*cked (the U.K.). Now, I quite see that it's irrelevant to you and your fellow countrywo/men in the U.S. as to whether or not we remain or leave the EU - but I assure you it's very relevant to those of us who live here and/or in Europe. Here's why . . .

By way of example as to just how unreasonable the EU is - look no further than Michel Barnier's insistence that EU nationals living in the U.K. post March 2019 should be governed by EU law rather than U.K. law. That's crazy. When I go to Spain and hire a car, I have to have hi-viz jackets, a warning triangle and replacement light bulbs - because Spanish law demands it. I don't moan about it because it's not the law here in the U.K. and I wouldn't use that as a defense if I was stopped by the Spanish police. It's right and proper that when in Spain that I abide by the laws of that country - even though they may differ to the laws here in the U.K. It's just simple common sense - to everyone other than Michel Barnier and the EU that is.
Tim.

 

[dbphoenix]

So you've said. Repeatedly. But in terms of history, it's irrelevant. The earth will not stop spinning just because the UK leaves the EU. Nor will it stop spinning if the EU flies apart completely, which may well happen, along with all the other alliances all over the world.

 

[Pat494]

Hi dbp,
It's very true to say that a great many people all over the world are tired of being f*cked over. However, sometimes it is crystal clear exactly who it is that's doing the f*cking (the EU), as is the person or persons getting f*cked (the U.K.). Now, I quite see that it's irrelevant to you and your fellow countrywo/men in the U.S. as to whether or not we remain or leave the EU - but I assure you it's very relevant to those of us who live here and/or in Europe. Here's why . . .

By way of example as to just how unreasonable the EU is - look no further than Michel Barnier's insistence that EU nationals living in the U.K. post March 2019 should be governed by EU law rather than U.K. law. That's crazy. When I go to Spain and hire a car, I have to have hi-viz jackets, a warning triangle and replacement light bulbs - because Spanish law demands it. I don't moan about it because it's not the law here in the U.K. and I wouldn't use that as a defense if I was stopped by the Spanish police. It's right and proper that when in Spain that I abide by the laws of that country - even though they may differ to the laws here in the U.K. It's just simple common sense - to everyone other than Michel Barnier and the EU that is.
Tim.

Make no mistake Barmier and Co. are going to squeeze the last drop of blood out of the UK. They can't afford to be kind and gentle not having the brains to realise that they should be carefully considering how to make the EU a better place for its members instead. Punishing Britain won't do them any good.
The great electorate have decided and we will therefore more than likely have to crash out to get out.

 

[sminicooper]

Make no mistake Barmier and Co. are going to squeeze the last drop of blood out of the UK. They can't afford to be kind and gentle not having the brains to realise that they should be carefully considering how to make the EU a better place for its members instead. Punishing Britain won't do them any good.
The great electorate have decided and we will therefore more than likely have to crash out to get out.

If the EU hadn't been so politically dogmatic and had just offered Dave a few tasty morsels, then he possibly wouldn't have lost the referendum.

There is no advantage to the Politburo's way of thinking in giving us any kind of reasonable deal. That is why we should walk away now and make our own arrangements. Time is running out and May and her ilk are incapable of dealing with it. That's why we need somebody else.

 

[timsk]

So you've said. Repeatedly. But in terms of history, it's irrelevant. The earth will not stop spinning just because the UK leaves the EU. Nor will it stop spinning if the EU flies apart completely, which may well happen, along with all the other alliances all over the world.

So sorry to bore you dbp - although I was merely responding to your post!


In terms of history, yes, I agree with you about that. But, if you go down that route, then you may as well dismiss most things as irrelevant. Life, the universe, everything - even T2W!
Tim.