Are Indicators Worthless?

........so, indicators are the same as turn signals then.......!

thats right, they are excellent in every respect !

"you use them to indicate your intentions to other road users !!!"


they are of value to traders who could trade very well without them but choose to use them for additional confirmation etc

they part new traders from their money, they are an illusion of control, a trigger they indicate nothing and often mislead imho

if you make money of them and they tell you where the turns are more often than not or whatever else you get out of them

great

trade well

Andy
 
I hope anyone who has come to the conclusion that TA doesn't work has watched a TA expert do it live. Watch a guy who has made his living like that for 10+ years, watch him do it live in real-time on a real market with his real money, and if you don't think it's TA at the root of his success, then I guess whatever you think is at the root of his success you should do that instead.

Having said that, of course TA alone, or pretty much anything alone, won't get the job done. Money management, keep an eye on current news, etc. I mean, I don't care what TA is telling you, if the government just passed a huge "bank bailout" bill, things are probably going to move, and fast. (Thinking back to last October or whenever it was they passed the first one. Ugh. :)). Or when Rambus lost its patent case. Ouch if you didn't have a good news feed.

Main point is, someone can point to an article here or there how TA doesn't work, but if you see someone do it live who's been doing it a long time, and isn't just a marketing guy trying to sell you something, you can see him doing it with your own eyes and be your own judge. If you haven't seen, I wouldn't judge.

I mean, Jim Cramer doesn't believe in TA, so what does that tell you? Case closed. :D

And then of course the question is: "what is TA?" Indicators? Charts? Price? Volume?

Pretty much every forum on the net will have at least one thread about how using indicators is like using training wheels, or, even worse, using them is gimping your growth, and that the sooner you take them off your charts, the better.

I think most indicators are of dubious value, but if they tell you something you aren't otherwise seeing from price or a chart or whatever voodoo you might prefer, or if you just use them for confirmation or a second opinon, then go with it. I think of it as like having multiple teachers teaching the same material in the same class -- some students will "get it" when things are presented in one way but maybe not another way, and if it helps them understand, then hey.

A main thing to remember is your way of doing likely isn't the only way of doing. Heck, some people swear by Elliot Waves. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to get anything out of them. :smart:

I just hope pro-indicator people actually know what it is the indicator is showing them. I know a guy who swore by stochastics. Any opinion on a stock he had, every other word he said was about stochastics. But he didn't understand what stoch was based on. A conversation later, and he still uses it, but it's no longer a holy grail.

edit: what the heck, did the forum get purged? It says I only have one post.
 
If the approach to trading is purely fundamental, how does one test or know if the approach is valid other than through actual trading? This is one of the huge benefits of a technical or mechanical approach... one can devise a set of rules which can be back-tested, thereby giving the user some level of comfort that it may work. That for me is the big plus in using technicals.

I originally started trading using fundamentals (I'm an FX trader) but it just doesn't work. For example, if you had told me that a global credit crunch would destroy the Japanese economy more than other major countries and make Japan a net importer (yes, unbelievable but true), my instinct would not lead me to think the JPY would then become the strongest currency in the world.

I trade mainly technically now. I can't possibly know what is driving the market in the short term, but if one can tune in to the rhythm of the market, the aim is to ride trends and capture 20-50 pct of the move. Right now there is sufficient volatility, even during these "quiet" summer months.
 
I have never been totally against technical analysis, but i've always believed that fundamentals should play a bigger part in your trading decision. It is like for example, the price of an asset is reaching its resistance, how does one know if it will break resistance and all indicators are inconclusive. You need a fundamental view to decide whether resistance will break or hold.
The other big thing is, the 'big boys' i.e hedge funds, prop traders at IB's, are not using technical analysis so why should we. Since they are essentially the players that move the markets. I mean, I am not totally disregarding technical analysis as I have seen certain things work myself such as moving averages and support/resistance levels, these are the only bits of technical analysis I look at.
 
hi tripleogstar

good post

what purpose does technical analysis perform ?

who does it perform it for ?

possible questions I would ask myself

"how does one know if it will break resistance and all indicators are inconclusive. You need a fundamental view to decide whether resistance will break or hold"

you don"t need to no

higher timeframe judged trend in play in line with your fundamental view

you need to no what your going to do when it gets there or you have indications from your own analysis its already there


Andy
 
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The other big thing is, the 'big boys' i.e hedge funds, prop traders at IB's, are not using technical analysis so why should we. Since they are essentially the players that move the markets.

Players that are big enough to move markets don't need to use technical or fundamental analysis. All they need is a customer who wants a large order filled and the "Big Player" will move the market to fill the order, make a few bucks for themselves and their customer and then let market drift back to previous price range or move it back there themselves. This is easier to do in stocks as specialists do it everyday but certainly can be done in forex. In forex they don't even need to move the market, only the price they are showing YOU, for example spikes or temporarily large spreads.

Peter
 
By the way it's nice to see this thread remain a discussion and not revert to the BS and name calling that some of these threads end up as.

I hope I didn't jinx it :D

Peter
 
i do agree that indicators stink to a certain extent.
i believe that by the time u get a huge winning trade based on a "main stream" indicator, u would have probably lost an equivalent amount or more...

but customized indicators, i believe, do work
u have to understand what kind of indicators they are, what they are trying to show, and then use other indicators to filter the "noise"

most of us look at indicators and we only see where it works but we don't really see, or we choose not to see where it doesn't. its just human nature :confused:

just like how 93% of traders don't make it, i believe that 93% of indicators don't work either... lol~

a lot of common sense is needed to help ur decision making rather than solely based on indicators. if the market is uptrend and its telling u to short, i know many that would just follow blindly and swear by stochastics but i just don't believe thats the right approach.

many say they are training wheels, and many don't trade with them, but never 4get those that have, and if they really don't work, probably 80%+ of hedge funds would disappear.

choice, combination, common sense, and discipline - u can make it work
 
I use certain proprietary repeating indicator based patterns based around band deviation and oscillator extremes/divergence, and act on them, with an individual price action trigger only at pre-identified potential support/resistance/sbr/rbs, identified on the next higher time frame. These 'set-ups' can indicate a high probability entry to a trend after a pullback as well as a high probability contra-trend trading opportunity that may be a pullback/extended pullback/reversal. In the example below the indicators are telling me that;

a. The shorter term volatility on this t/f is now less than the longer term volatility, ie the shorter setting bol bands have come inside the longer setting
b. The momentum of the upmove is waning as shown by the bearish divergence from price in the oscillators.

My point is this, - indicators when used in the right way can add value to a trading decision and can help to pinpoint an entry thereby potentially minimising stop required. On the lower t/f's (I operate on a 1min trigger) they are invaluable when used in the way described in filtering out the sometimes unreliable price action triggers.

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Hmm lots of discussion - but think about what an indicator is...

It is purely a representation of price action. It actually adds no information that isn't already there. In fact most indicators remove - or blur - price action.

Indicators in themselves provide nothing of value - for the most part - they remove noise we don't want to see to enable us to make our decisions. Our brains cannot cope with too much information and indicators are merely a tool for reducing the amount and representing it in a way our brains are able to recognise patterns.

In theory they should have no influence on the market or be accurate at all. Of course many trading decisions are based on indicators which makes them self fulfulling prophecies.
 
It actually adds no information that isn't already there.

I don't agree at all with this. How would you determine what phase of Fisher Transform the current price is in without using an indicator ? Or whether price is diverging at point of being overbought relative to the price at which most volume has been traded ?

I am not against using only price action as I use it myself as the prime way I trade but I know others who use nothing but indicators and are hugely successful in doing so.


Paul
 
indicator failure

The Dow and SP500 both showed a clear H and S formation.

A clear break of the neck on the downside signalled lower prices.Even a pullback
to the neck should have held as resistance.

If this major formation can fail, what does this say about charts?
 
.....If this major formation can fail, what does this say about charts?

It says that chart patterns, price action, fibs, support/resiatnce, indicators and all other tech analysis - intelligently used can provide you with a 'trading edge,' and that;

a. A trading edge is nothing more than an indication of a higher probability of one thing happening over another, based on a historical sample.

b. There is a random distribution between wins and losses for any given set of
variables that define an edge

c. Every moment in the market is unique

d. Anything can happen

The failure of the one pattern you refer to cannot be used to condemn the whole of technical anlysis. Understanding what it is is one thing, understanding how to apply it is another.

G/L
 
I don't agree at all with this. How would you determine what phase of Fisher Transform the current price is in without using an indicator ? Or whether price is diverging at point of being overbought relative to the price at which most volume has been traded ?

I am not against using only price action as I use it myself as the prime way I trade but I know others who use nothing but indicators and are hugely successful in doing so.


Paul

-Take Whichever Way Works-
Bruce Lee
Jeet Kon Do
 
i. Do you really understand what they are telling you about price ?

After several years of indicator research I don't use them anymore, I just follow the book. But what I want to emphasize is what bbmac already said.

I've a friend that use indicators to make his decisions, and one day I asked him:

- That indicator you use, what does it indicate exactly?
- I don't know. Who cares? I buy when it is down and sell when it reach the top.

I reckon that is the main problem for many people.
An indicator is ALWAYS 100% accurate... but... do you know what is it telling you? :confused:
 
Using an indicator to enter is only half the battle, how do you exit? In fact, this applies to pretty much everything in life. Start a business? Easily done, but how do you know when to get out. Invade Iraq? Piece of cake. But what's the exit strategy (Mr Rumsfeld?)

Indicators help you enter in an emotionless and rational way, but will not reliably make you money unless you have a sound money management technique. The HUGE advantage of indicators is their backtestability........ trying to backtest "support", "resistance" and "trendlines" etc is impossible.
 
The HUGE advantage of indicators is their backtestability
Indeed!

By the way... are you sure that "indicators help you enter in an emotionless and rational way" ?

Probably the indicator will make your emotion higher.
Scenes like "It was so clear... I was so sure... This f***ing indicator is kidding me!! :mad:" can be very common unless you use an automated approach.
 
Haha I know exactly what you mean. By the way, I was just testing some systems in MetaStock Pro and discovered a glitch... if you enter a trade at the close of a bar, the system will stop you out if a previous part of the bar is through the predetermined stop level. In other words, you get stopped on a price which occurred BEFORE you even put the trade on.... uh oh....
 
I see indicators as my large scale route planner map to plan my journey and get my bearings. Then I would tern on my tom tom (market structure and price action) to give me precise directions and timing for the journey.
 
The Dow and SP500 both showed a clear H and S formation.

A clear break of the neck on the downside signalled lower prices.Even a pullback
to the neck should have held as resistance.

If this major formation can fail, what does this say about charts?

Says someone thought the neckline was a really good place to buy and take money from people who blindly follow H&S or it could be a news story/sector gain/outstanding company performance that dragged up the index.

Million things it could have been. I'd suggest you learn about the psychology/sentiment behind the patterns before just jumping in but then again I'm not profitable ;)
 
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