All that isnt method, especially TiTZ.

[Liquid validity]

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/psy...snt-method-especially-titz-5.html#post2277150

Fear and pressure are not the same thing.
Also no offence, but I've no idea what the distorted thought bit means at all,
in reference to my quote.

About 5 years ago I had an approximate 50% drawdown swing trading.
So I'm well aware of the difference between theoretical psychology,
and how it feels in practice.
Trust me, there is no magic switch or book that makes that go away.
You just have to take it on the chin, and find a way back by controlling
irrational thought.
I dealt with it, and still do by trying to find a positive aspect.

Either way, maybe it would be more productive if you focus on yourself
rather than me
Forum chat is all this is, its largely meaningless to your own situation.
You have to work that out yourself.
So having said that I'm done

 

[rsh01]

the penalty analogy seems more like a soros trade ie a low freq / high strike rate shot - with lots at stake.

to appease the instigator, a comparable footy position to an avge retail trader is the sweeper (ie beckenbauer) - spraying many balls around from the back, some hit (eg an assist) some dont (breakdown in attacking play) - for whatever reasons, whilst minimising risk.

the analogy is crap though, see LV responses.

a better sport analogy wld be with an individual pursuit ie tennis, unless you trade in teams.

 

[darktone]

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/psy...snt-method-especially-titz-5.html#post2277150

Fear and pressure are not the same thing.
Also no offence, but I've no idea what the distorted thought bit means at all,
in reference to my quote.

Yeah that was a bit unclear on my part. I was replying to what id said re the the two thoughts i gave to the penalty taker. Have updated my post. Post 38

About 5 years ago I had an approximate 50% drawdown swing trading.
So I'm well aware of the difference between theoretical psychology,
and how it feels in practice.

I understand that point of view.
Im guessing 12 or so years ago. I caught in a trade over the weekend. I was full margin short nas100. Given the action of the time i could have easily been whacked 20k. A big deal to me and my 3.5k acc, filled with money i couldnt afford to lose. I wept that weekend .
Apart from being a total newfish wally trading to large:-
1) i hadnt accepted the risk of what i was doing. The market can do anything. It can pay me as it can wipe me out.
2) I was completely unaware of that there is nothing theoretical about psychology.

Trust me, there is no magic switch or book that makes that go away.
You just have to take it on the chin, and find a way back by controlling
irrational thought.
I dealt with it, and still do by trying to find a positive aspect.

Theres no magic switch granted.
Trust me, x10, with sugar on top when i say. You can feel anything (emotionally) unless you think it first, you thoughts are an expression of your beliefs. You can change your beliefs.
Imo trying to 'control' or live with irrational thoughts is a bad approach, far better to able to identify them and expose them for what they are. In turn you can shape new beliefs that replace old beliefs, that in turn leads to better more rational thinking.

Either way, maybe it would be more productive if you focus on yourself
rather than me
Forum chat is all this is, its largely meaningless to your own situation.
You have to work that out yourself.
So having said that I'm done

The primary reason for this thread is for my benefit . Im putting my views up to be challenged which helps me learn. In round about way the focus is on me.
The second objective is to help anyone who reads this thread and chooses to investigate/challenge themselves.
Please dont be done mate.

 

[darktone]

the penalty analogy seems more like a soros trade ie a low freq / high strike rate shot - with lots at stake.

to appease the instigator, a comparable footy position to an avge retail trader is the sweeper (ie beckenbauer) - spraying many balls around from the back, some hit (eg an assist) some dont (breakdown in attacking play) - for whatever reasons, whilst minimising risk.

the analogy is crap though, see LV responses.

a better sport analogy wld be with an individual pursuit ie tennis, unless you trade in teams.

Youre missing the point of the example imo. Its not about the situation so much as how psych can impact the outcome.

 

[darktone]

Time to come clean I guess and confirm what some of you guys might already suspect.
I am:
1) the tennis player
2) the dancer
(Am also the climber . So if you ever in london LV and fancy a climb, hit me up )

As such, these examples are born out of my experience.

The tennis player:-
I had the shots, the timing and the power. I was fanatical about the game at the time, played whenever i could, even started to string my own racquets.
As a 15yr old I was completely unaware of the psychological side of tennis, when the point came i would tighten up.
My thinking would be dominated with "ok, 40 luv up, goto win this point"-"cant lose another service game"-"just get it over the fking net you moron!"
Net result = crap tennis player!

Relevance to trading (imo):-
You can have the method that Marty Schwartz (or insert your fav here) himself has given you, you can have all the tech, you can have the most efficient access to the market.
If youre thinking "I cant give my profits back"-"20 losses in row! im not taking my next setup"-"Fk the method, just give me a win"
Net result = most likely, crap trader!

The dancer:-
I completely denied myself the opportunity to find out how competent a dancer i could be by telling myself "you cannot dance"! 15years of 'not dancing' this belief cost me!
The change came with a motivation (no prizes for guessing what that was :cheesy that was strong enough for me to bare the pain of dance class. WIth progress, my beliefs changed themselves by the sheer fact i was doing what i believed to be impossible for me to do. It was a fking torturous way of changing that belief!

Relevance to trading (imo):-
You could be like most people and decide, "i couldnt trade, to risky", in which case you wont be reading this forum.
Or you could one of the others that that choose to trade, have an existing method (that you can execute) that has returned you 10% per year along with the belief "You cant make more than 10% per year". If so, 10% per year is what youl get. You will rob yourself of the opportunity investigate other options.
Or you can have the belief "i must use a stop"-"A real trader uses a stop"-"A good trader uses a stop". Regardless of any evidence presented to the contrary, if your belief is strong enough, you will reject it as nonsense.

It might be simpler to say. Any belief you have of anything will be true, for you, until you are motivated or forced by fact to reconsider.. Yeah, i like that.

 

[Liquid validity]

Imo trying to 'control' or live with irrational thoughts is a bad approach, far better to able to identify them and expose them for what they are. In turn you can shape new beliefs that replace old beliefs, that in turn leads to better more rational thinking.

OK, let me clarify what I meant there, by irrational thoughts,
I'm talking basic human emotion, fight or flight stuff.

Somebody walks up to you, punches you and nicks your wallet.
Somebody car jacks you at traffic lights.
Savage open gap down, stop is heavily slipped.
And so on...

Point is, all have similar initial emotional reaction, they are unplanned
black swan events.
What I am saying is no book can make you truly feel that unless you've
experienced it for real.
You will have an initial emotional response - an irrational thought.
I have identified them for what they are a long time ago.
That does not negate their existence, it merely placates them.
So in practical terms they are negated, yet can still bubble away
and surface briefly from time to time.

Read this thread, he knew (and still does) more about trading than the
vast majority of people on this site.
More than me for sure.
At first I thought the thread was a wind up, but it was legit.
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/psy...gement/159720-dash-riprock-stops-trading.html

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/psy...dash-riprock-stops-trading-4.html#post1989304
The reply above is a tongue in cheek reply, but I always thought
that the stress and sleep issues that can arise were a contributory factor.
Its a refreshingly honest and open thread free from most of the BS that
populate other threads

I've known other people here (no names) who knew their stuff who
mentioned sleep issues as well.
No book, or replacing 'old beliefs' will change that.
Simple fact is it goes with the turf in trading.
All you can do is suppress it, that may be indefinitely, or may only be
a matter of years.
That is entirely dependent on your personal resilience, and indeed,
willingness to even want to.

There is more of a hint of that in this post as well, the mention of sacrifice:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/psy...dash-riprock-stops-trading-2.html#post1989126

If you can't identify with that thread in any way whatsoever,
give it time and you will...
Read it properly, amongst the lulz, the insights are well worth it.

 

[Liquid validity]

It might be simpler to say. Any belief you have of anything will be true, for you, until you are motivated or forced by fact to reconsider.. Yeah, i like that.

Bearing in mind my previous post, that completely ignores the reality of the situation.
We all have different capacities for dealing with those issues
Reality trumps belief every time...

The point of what I am saying is not negative.
All I am saying is these issues do exist.
You can not con yourself by denying their existence for long.
Sooner or later, you have to stare it in the face, and accept it's presence.
You can either deal with it permanently, or for a limited time.
To deny the existence of stress and pressure at all is simply unrealistic.

I spose the biggest difference is that the most successful people
actually thrive and feed off stress and pressure.
I am not one of them, I can cope with it, but I would hardly say it
is something of benefit to me.
Like anyone its never constant though, sometimes I can thrive and feed off pressure.
Point is, those at the top can do it all the time without fail.

I don't think it is something you can learn, its either part of your
personality or its not.
You can however learn to harness and control the capacity you do personally have
to your own best effect.
That is as good as it gets.

If that were not the case, every body would be a Schumacher, Rotter et al - top of their game.
That is impossible in any endevour, success by definition requires someone elses failure.

 

[barjon]

I don't think you have to look much further than the fairly common experience of people who find they cannot match the results they achieved on a demo account when they start trading for real.

You can trot along a four inch plank laid out on the floor with ease and without a qualm. Now lift the plank a hundred feet in the air and have a go. Shouldn't be a difference should there? Except what's going on in your head, of course

 

[darktone]

OK, let me clarify what I meant there, by irrational thoughts,
I'm talking basic human emotion, fight or flight stuff.

I understand what you saying, but fight or flight is a physiological response. Its triggered by perceiving a situation to be dangerous/damaging. Ie you have to think that the situation is dangerous.
"The instinctive physiological response to a threatening situation, which readies one either to resist forcibly or to run away."
I havent read this entirely, but looked good on a skim through.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/fear2.htm

Somebody walks up to you, punches you and nicks your wallet.
Somebody car jacks you at traffic lights.
Savage open gap down, stop is heavily slipped.
And so on...

The emotional response to all of these event will be down to the individual and how they perceive them,what they think about these events. Its true that for most people your examples will trigger fight or flight. But not all.
What would Jimmy Balodimas likely be doing on the savage gap. First up wont be getting slipped on a stop because he doesnt use stops. Secondly, providing hes not already to big he likely see it as buying op with the view of managing/taking loss (or profits for that matter) on the way back up.
The car jacking example. Most folks would sh1t themselves granted, but not all. Im pretty sure that the 'victim' in this clip didnt think like most people would have

Sure it can be argued the guy has experience on his side. But before that experience came he had to have the belief or motivation to earn that experience.

Point is, all have similar initial emotional reaction, they are unplanned
black swan events.

A person who truly believes that "Anything can happen in that market"-"I accept that i can lose my account and more" will be much better placed to deal with a blackswan event, than someone who believes "I can predict what will happen in the market."-"My risk is my size x distance from entry to my stop"

What I am saying is no book can make you truly feel that unless you've
experienced it for real.
You will have an initial emotional response - an irrational thought.
I have identified them for what they are a long time ago.
That does not negate their existence, it merely placates them.
So in practical terms they are negated, yet can still bubble away
and surface briefly from time to time.

Read this thread, he knew (and still does) more about trading than the
vast majority of people on this site.
More than me for sure.
At first I thought the thread was a wind up, but it was legit.
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/psy...gement/159720-dash-riprock-stops-trading.html

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/psy...dash-riprock-stops-trading-4.html#post1989304
The reply above is a tongue in cheek reply, but I always thought
that the stress and sleep issues that can arise were a contributory factor.
Its a refreshingly honest and open thread free from most of the BS that
populate other threads

I've known other people here (no names) who knew their stuff who
mentioned sleep issues as well.
No book, or replacing 'old beliefs' will change that.
Simple fact is it goes with the turf in trading.
All you can do is suppress it, that may be indefinitely, or may only be
a matter of years.
That is entirely dependent on your personal resilience, and indeed,
willingness to even want to.

There is more of a hint of that in this post as well, the mention of sacrifice:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/psy...dash-riprock-stops-trading-2.html#post1989126

If you can't identify with that thread in any way whatsoever,
give it time and you will...
Read it properly, amongst the lulz, the insights are well worth it.

I agree that no psych book can fix a person, but it can give the person an awareness of where the problems are as well as tools to examine and deal with them imo and experience. Its a start.

Cheers for the links LV, will defo check em out when i get a sec Dashriprock rings a bell.

 

[darktone]

I don't think you have to look much further than the fairly common experience of people who find they cannot match the results they achieved on a demo account when they start trading for real.

You can trot along a four inch plank laid out on the floor with ease and without a qualm. Now lift the plank a hundred feet in the air and have a go. Shouldn't be a difference should there? Except what's going on in your head, of course

Perfect example Jon, imo why most folks who give trading a serious go and fail, fail. They totally miss or underestimate the psychological side, which is to me is an 80-90% side, of trading very successfully.

Make sure you got a got towel for your hands for this next clip. Anyone watching might well get sweaty palms caused by their perception of what Alex Honnald does. Seriously, consider what is happening for you the moment you palms start to get moist, whats triggering this physical response in you? Youre in no mortal danger.

re planks, hed prolly skip across 2 inch plank a 1000 feet up on a windy day.. Blindfolded!

 

[Liquid validity]

Basic human response, similar to fight or flight.
Not fight or flight literally.

Anyway, if trading is zero stress for you at least,
and Balodimas no stops & averaging down is good, just get on with it.
Has it crossed your mind he maybe gets away with it simply due to
deeper pockets...or more likely just on borrowed time.

Not sure why watching a climbing vid would cause stress to the viewer either...
Anyway, you seem set in what you believe so I don't see much point in
me adding anymore, not much else to say anyway.

 

[counter_violent]

Perfect example Jon, imo why most folks who give trading a serious go and fail, fail. They totally miss or underestimate the psychological side, which is to me is an 80-90% side, of trading very successfully.

Make sure you got a got towel for your hands for this next clip. Anyone watching might well get sweaty palms caused by their perception of what Alex Honnald does. Seriously, consider what is happening for you the moment you palms start to get moist, whats triggering this physical response in you? Youre in no mortal danger.

re planks, hed prolly skip across 2 inch plank a 1000 feet up on a windy day.. Blindfolded!

That bloke's just an adrenalin junkie nut job.
I'll guarantee you this, if he carries on, we will be reading his obituary in the papers
There's a clip in the film says "One wrong move, you fall, you die"

Now to trading. Having it 100% on the line 100% of the time. One cato trade, which will come, and the acct is blown.

This is a good thread....so much info in it, it's almost unbelievable.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/spread-betting-cfds/148976-spank-bucketshop-free-100-account.html

 

[darktone]

Basic human response, similar to fight or flight.
Not fight or flight literally.

Well, i dunno. Was just trying to point out the pshyc triggers that activate fight or flight are different for us all. As we all believe/think different.

Anyway, if trading is zero stress for you at least,
and Balodimas no stops & averaging down is good, just get on with it.

Im sure you are experienced enough to know that averaging down (adding unplanned size to your existing losing position) and managing/trading around your position are two very different things, Jimmy does the later.
Re zero stress: Im not there yet, but im not far off, well see

Has it crossed your mind he maybe gets away with it simply due to
deeper pockets...or more likely just on borrowed time.

Of course i did, i just didnt let that thought defeat my curiosity, thankfully.

Not sure why watching a climbing vid would cause stress to the viewer either...

Well you can watch and find out i guess. If your palms do get clammy, youl have two choices.
1) You can ask yourself why they got clammy, and investigate the underlying causes.
2) Dismiss it as just more BS from me and continue as you are.

If you dont get the sweats, watch the full video.

Anyway, you seem set in what you believe so I don't see much point in
me adding anymore, not much else to say anyway.

My beliefs are always open for change. Becoming a dancer and suffering past depression has taught me that.

Its all good LV
Cheers

 

[darktone]

[/QUOTE]That bloke's just an adrenalin junkie nut job.[/QUOTE]
To you he his. Id imagine he would see it as he is enjoying his life, living it the way he chooses.

I'll guarantee you this, if he carries on, we will be reading his obituary in the papers
There's a clip in the film says "One wrong move, you fall, you die"

Yes, i agree ..
However, he has accepted that risk obviously, or he couldnt do it could he.

Now to trading. Having it 100% on the line 100% of the time. One cato trade, which will come, and the acct is blown.

I agree.

This is a good thread....so much info in it, it's almost unbelievable.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/spread-betting-cfds/148976-spank-bucketshop-free-100-account.html

Cheers for the link CV, will check it out when i got a mo.

Btw, how did the palms do? Comon on now, youre amongst friends.

 

[barjon]

:
...........Make sure you got a got towel for your hands for this next clip. Anyone watching might well get sweaty palms caused by their perception of what Alex Honnald does. Seriously, consider what is happening for you the moment you palms start to get moist, whats triggering this physical response in you? Youre in no mortal danger. ..............

I agree with CV that this guy's going to come to a sticky end - unless he stops soon and takes to writing a book about it idea: thinks: where have I seen that before on the trading scene )

The clip only gives you sweaty palms if you know something about, and have experienced, climbing and the difficulties and dangers involved. aka the route from aspiring trader to practising trader.

 

[Liquid validity]

Well you can watch and find out i guess. If your palms do get clammy, youl have two choices.
1) You can ask yourself why they got clammy, and investigate the underlying causes.
2) Dismiss it as just more BS from me and continue as you are.

If you dont get the sweats, watch the full video.

OK I watched the video, all it did was remind me of how much of a tw@t
I used to be on the road in cars and bikes.
Particularly 2 near misses that I certainly would not have walked away from.
Trouble is people like that always think skill is enough.
Sooner or later you realise skill will not get you out of every situation,
simply as the situation is wrong - should be on track or not at all.

Other than that, the only other thought was, yeah I remember exposing
myself to stupid risk for a buzz.
Now at 40, I realised a long time ago that actually I'm not made out of rubber,
and the best way to die when you are 70+ is by not exposing yourself to
excessive risk.
No sweaty palms

 

[counter_violent]

I agree with CV that this guy's going to come to a sticky end - unless he stops soon and takes to writing a book about it idea: thinks: where have I seen that before on the trading scene )

The clip only gives you sweaty palms if you know something about, and have experienced, climbing and the difficulties and dangers involved. aka the route from aspiring trader to practising trader.

The longer we live and the more experienced we become the less risks we are willing to take, because, we start to apply knowledge of previously experienced risk to all other areas we might be involved in.

Let me give you an example

Lets say the wind got up and snapped a low lying small branch near the base of a tree in your garden.

Do you:-

1) climb on the bin cos you can't quite reach this dangling branch that needs to come down.

2) get a proper ladder out, ensure the footing and tie it to the trunk, thus ensuring a firm platform to work off.

There are lots of things wrong with option 1 obviously. You could slip off and break a bone, the lid may collapse, and you break a bone, it could topple sideways, and you break a bone...and so on.

But with option 2 , what's the worst that could happen? A small graze where you slip with the saw which needs a plaster.

 

[Liquid validity]

The longer we live and the more experienced we become the less risks we are willing to take, because, we start to apply knowledge of previously experienced risk to all other areas we might be involved in.

+1 Exactly.
Some might call it a loss of bottle.
I prefer to call it a moment of clarity that leads to the permanent
suspension of excessive risk

 

[Pondlifedregsbutler]

The longer we live and the more experienced we become the less risks we are willing to take, because, we start to apply knowledge of previously experienced risk to all other areas we might be involved in.

Let me give you an example

Lets say the wind got up and snapped a low lying small branch near the base of a tree in your garden.

Do you:-

1) climb on the bin cos you can't quite reach this dangling branch that needs to come down.

2) get a proper ladder out, ensure the footing and tie it to the trunk, thus ensuring a firm platform to work off.

There are lots of things wrong with option 1 obviously. You could slip off and break a bone, the lid may collapse, and you break a bone, it could topple sideways, and you break a bone...and so on.

But with option 2 , what's the worst that could happen? A small graze where you slip with the saw which needs a plaster.

3 Make sure the wife is well insured, get the chainsaw out, start it up and rev if flat out ignoring the voices in head which are telling you to chase wifey around the garden with it. Ask wife to stand in the footprint where the tree will fall....timber.....whoops, butterfingers!!! Move to sunnier climes with younger model who can cook.

4 leave it, natures way innit.

 

[darktone]

The clip only gives you sweaty palms if you know something about, and have experienced, climbing and the difficulties and dangers involved.

Thats an interesting point Jon.
Perhaps it fires me up more than most because ive climbing experience, and have some insight into the problems he could run face. (I get sweaty palms )
Hold breaking/fatigue/falling debris/mental failure-distraction etc etc.
Obviously the worst case is almost certain death if it goes wrong.
Alex certainly is aware of the risk, as he is aware that he can easily climb these routes (previous roped accents). He has clearly accepted the risk otherwise how could he do it? He is totally calm when he solos, and said in the doc that if he feels an 'adrenaline rush', something is wrong.

Me on the other hand, i know about being scared climbing indoors. Yet when i think on it, should i be? What are the real risks? (ill talk about lead climbing-clipping your rope as u climb)
1) The biggest risk imo is complacency, ie not checking your knot/gear, Ive seen first hand the consequence of that, not good. . (applies to any climbing)
2) Grounding out on the first/second clip. (the risk can easily be negated)
3) Slamming the wall when you take a swing. (the worst ive seen/experienced is a graze)
4) the guy on the other end of the rope not doing his job. (in part can be negated by gear, ie self locking protection)

As for gear failure, ive never seen/heard of it indoors.

Bearing in mind im no climbing noob (about 5 years '3 days a week' experience, best lead 7A at craggy guildford) where does this fear come from?
Im obsessive about checking knots.
I use self locking gear.
I trust my climbing buddies.

Im probably at less physical risk climbing than playing football. So why do i get scared when im on the edge of my ability, when there is in fact, not that much to be scared about? Possible reasons could be
1) I have an unrealistic view of the risks. (that i see it to be more dangerous than it really is, unrealistic perception)
2) That i havent fully accepted the risk (although very small, there is a risk of being badly hurt)