--- 2% Per Month Compounded Realistic ? ---

[Market Wizard]

traders who achieve 5 figure returns hardly means "thateveryone gets out of the market what they want", it seems clear to me very few do.

Hello Henry,

You are right. It doesn't. There is actually a very thick line between those that get what they want and those that don't get what they want.

But the ones that don't get what they want, do they really want it. I think once again it comes down to the fact that many traders are not aware of what it actually takes to achieve these returns.

There is still an element of hope that everything will turn out right. Many traders go around in circles and never really move from base one because their is such a vast amount of information available from a million different expereinces. Quite confusing and misleading because it is all sense. But is this what they need? I actually think that they need a structured approach to their learning, one that will actually get results and not just keep them busy.

This comes back to the most important element - the Plan. Many traders that i have come across don't actually have learning plans, they just know that they will need a plan to trade.

Sorry going of the point here . Just my opinions.

 

[henry766]

I think they do really want it , wanting isn't a rare rescource , are they prepared to put what is required into achieving what they want , probably not , but that's a different question .I'd be carefull about being too formal about how one learns how to achieve profitable trades , i certainly don't believe following the conventional path of most traders who have gone before is a good plan , in my opinion we're after something being organised won't get you , an insight that is better than other's have , and therefore also different , not just disciplined /planned more of the same .like you , just my opinion

 

[garethb]

You'd need some sort of margin for 2% per day surely?

Why should you need margin for a mere 2% per day.

I doubt a day goes by where there isn't at least one stock on the US markets that moves far in excess of 2%. You just have to have the right stock and open your position at the start and close it at the end of the day. Why limit yourself to 2% per day.

By the way - some traders get what they want, some traders get what they need but all traders get what they deserve.

Good Luck

 

[henry766]

To average 2% a day over a year on stocks with no margin !!!?if you could achieve 2% a day in the underlying stock ,with day trading margin (*4) you'd be a multi trillionaire by year end .( in the event of a person making 1 trade per day) , it may be possible to average return 2% per day in the underlying if multiple intraday trades were made , a busy scalper may manage it , though liquidity would limit the higher amounts of profit)

 

[garethb]

To average 2% a day over a year on stocks with no margin !!!?if you could achieve 2% a day in the underlying stock ,with day trading margin (*4) you'd be a multi trillionaire by year end .( in the event of a person making 1 trade per day) , it may be possible to average return 2% per day in the underlying if multiple intraday trades were made , a busy scalper may manage it , though liquidity would limit the higher amounts of profit)

Sorry henry - My post was meant to be ironic and wasn't really dirrected at you, as most of your posts that I've seen seem pretty sensible. Due mainly to the consumption of more than a bottle of red wine so far this evening I went a bit off target. I'm not impying 2% per day is easy

In achieving 2% per day, margin is probably the least of your concerns. Doing the right trades in the right way and not doing the wrong trades is more what it's about and there is constant debate on T2W about how you manage that. Actually margin is pretty easy to come by and relative to all the other challenges not a particular concern.

Regards,

Gareth

 

[TheBramble]

Reach for the sky. Nothing is impossible.

I used to believe this sort of stuff. The problem is, there are very few who genuinely have the intent and the willingness to execute that intent. Most just play lip service to this rah rah BS and it simply doesn't work. The worst thing is - it's worse than useless in most cases.

"Aim for the stars and if you fall short, you'll still be better off than the average Joe". That's great for those that can and do. But for the vast majority who can't - aiming for the stars means they simply NEVER get started. And they end up where they started - because they don't take any action. Where they've always been.

Had they aimed just for the lowest branch, they'd have been so much further up the tree than they are right now. Not the stars - but not the gutter either.

MW - You are either incredibly lucky or incredibly naive. If you've never come up against impossible then I'm happy for you and sad for you - in equal measure.

May your awakening be gentle.

 

[henry766]

Regretably Bramble I find myself agreeing with you , talk is cheap , what's more the markets arn't even listening!!!

 

[Charlton]

Slow and steady climb

there are very few who genuinely have the intent and the willingness to execute that intent.

Had they aimed just for the lowest branch, they'd have been so much further up the tree than they are right now. Not the stars - but not the gutter either.
.

The Bramble

I think you have raised 2 important points here, which I have extracted from your post. There are currently 3 threads - this one, "Can all traders by succesful traders " and "Why do so few succeed", which seem to cover similar topics.

Trading boils down to a farily simple concept: buy low and sell high. To make a profit means selling at a price that covers the transaction costs e.g. fees, commissions, recurring costs such as data feeds etc. It should also take into account opportunity costs i.e. the profit that could have been made by investing elsewhere, even if it is just the interest gained by leaving funds in the bank.

On one of the other threads Henry766 mentioned it is a "zero sum game", that the "experienced and successful few will take most of the money" and why can't an individual make it into the winning group.

Clearly the longer term acquisition of skills and experience are important and lead to the "higher branches", but the simple concept of trading is also a statistical exercise - the balance of probabilities: risk, failure, profit, loss, limits, stops, continuation of trends, breakouts and so forth.

The "lower branches" are where the balance just edges in your favour. Inexperienced traders may do a lot to help themselves by looking for simple and small ways to tip that balance of probabilities ever more in their favour. Start with the trading plan - this might tip it, say, 2%. Refine it - this might add another 0.5%. Concentrate on money management and more accurate assessment of risk/reward ratios - it tips another 1 %. These percentages are not meant to represent anything accurately, but merely to point out that each logical and positive action taken towards the analysis and improvement of a trading plan and strategy, or to psychological issues will help to push the inexperienced further up that tree.

If he leaps up to the higher branches before he is ready he will only grab hold of a weak one or lose his balance or seriously injure himself.

Slow and steady hard work is the key

Charlton

 

[Trader333]

Trading boils down to a farily simple concept: buy low and sell high.

I actually disagree with this statement and in my view a more successful approach is to buy high and sell even higher and short low and cover even lower. Those who I know who have attempted to try to buy low and sell high and vice versa have invariably failed and over time lost a lot of money.


Paul

 

[SOCRATES]

Regretably Bramble I find myself agreeing with you , talk is cheap , what's more the markets arn't even listening!!!

You are right....the markets do not listen...the market do what they do.

It is not for the markets to listen to us or indeed our aspirations or desires.

That is why it is imperative not to have emotions.

Emotions emanate from EGO.

EGO has no place in trading whatsoever.

It is for US to listen to them instead, and act in harmony with THEM and not try to force.

Then if this harmony is achieved,and achieved consistently, then yes, in principle the sky is the limit for each according to his skill levels plus other factors, but not otherwise, as none of it can be forced, with one exception.

The exception is the forcing of our very selves, to properly progress, that's all.

 

[Market Wizard]

I used to believe this sort of stuff. The problem is, there are very few who genuinely have the intent and the willingness to execute that intent. Most just play lip service to this rah rah BS and it simply doesn't work. The worst thing is - it's worse than useless in most cases.

"Aim for the stars and if you fall short, you'll still be better off than the average Joe". That's great for those that can and do. But for the vast majority who can't - aiming for the stars means they simply NEVER get started. And they end up where they started - because they don't take any action. Where they've always been.

Had they aimed just for the lowest branch, they'd have been so much further up the tree than they are right now. Not the stars - but not the gutter either.

MW - You are either incredibly lucky or incredibly naive. If you've never come up against impossible then I'm happy for you and sad for you - in equal measure.

May your awakening be gentle.

Hello Bramble

If you have already convinced yourself along that way of thinking, then there is nothing more for me to add.

May your awakening be soon

MW

 

[henry766]

Does it matter how high or low you aim ? surley all thats important is how profitable one ends up being, but one does get the sense that market wizard talks a good trade, or more precisley is talking himself up to a trade , wether it's good or not is a different question.

 

[Market Wizard]

I think they do really want it , wanting isn't a rare rescource , are they prepared to put what is required into achieving what they want , probably not , but that's a different question .I'd be careful about being too formal about how one learns how to achieve profitable trades , i certainly don't believe following the conventional path of most traders who have gone before is a good plan , in my opinion we're after something being organised won't get you , an insight that is better than other's have , and therefore also different , not just disciplined /planned more of the same .like you , just my opinion

Do you really believe that the organised/planned is the conventional path that most traders have really followed?

[/QUOTE]in my opinion we're after something being organised won't get you, an insight that is better than other's have [/QUOTE]

I can understand where you are coming from and maybe quite right that a different insight is required. I will try to find some of the information that helped me and post it here, it may be of help or it may not.

One enormous advantage that being organised will give you is that it will let you experience what you intellectually know a lot sooner. This alone can help a trader see the distance.

I hope this makes sense.

MW

 

[SOCRATES]

Does it matter how high or low you aim ? surley all thats important is how profitable one ends up being, but one does get the sense that market wizard talks a good trade, or more precisley is talking himself up to a trade , wether it's good or not is a different question.

This is an example of what I have said in the past on these boards.....It does not matter how anything is explained ....it just does not land....it just doesn't.

You do not understand what he is saying......

I will explain it to you and I am sure he will agree with me.

What he is saying has got nothing to do with anything other than progressing in a properly self structured manner, self governed and self directed as a consequence of self responsibility, self motivation and self governance of the highest order....as a consequence of an enriched higher level of self awareness....that is what he is saying and not talking himself up to anything.

It is very simple.

 

[Market Wizard]

Does it matter how high or low you aim ? surley all thats important is how profitable one ends up being, but one does get the sense that market wizard talks a good trade, or more precisley is talking himself up to a trade , wether it's good or not is a different question.

If you that is what you think then you have truly misunderstood our exchange and my apologies for any misrepresntation on my part.


How do you achieve profitability?

The simple fact is that all the answers are out there and you have read them many times. All the great traders say the same things over and over again. Thats because that is how it is. If you find something different I am sure everyone would like to know.

 

[Market Wizard]

This is an example of what I have said in the past on these boards.....It does not matter how anything is explained ....it just does not land....it just doesn't.

You do not understand what he is saying......

I will explain it to you and I am sure he will agree with me.

What he is saying has got nothing to do with anything other than progressing in a properly self structured manner, self governed and self directed as a consequence of self responsibility, self motivation and self governance of the highest order....as a consequence of an enriched higher level of self awareness....that is what he is saying and not talking himself up to anything.

It is very simple.

Thank You Socrates for saying very clearly.

 

[henry766]

Not sure about the last part , "experience what you intellectually know a lot sooner"?, but the point is illustrated by yourself , your not sure it will help or not?My own view is that people are insecure about trading , don't like the risk , like to be organised , money management etc as if those things will make you succeed , they won't , at the end of your trading career the only the that counts is that you've made profits , if your system doesn't work , IT DOESN'T WORK, and you will not succeed however much money management , however organised you are , how much you talk about it etc . if you have all these things , you will still lose because your system isn't profitable , it's like playing roullette , in the end the bank wins , despite the bank having no control over risk management , no control as to when the client puts his money on which number etc , so has no organised way of trading at all , it takes what comes , but in the end it always wins , sooner or later. And finding these profitable systems doesn't require organisation either , but imagination , didn't Einstien come up with his theory of relativity while out for a walk, not a file or plan in site!!

 

[henry766]

why re invent the wheeel , because every one else is all ready trading the wheel thats why!!

 

[Market Wizard]

Not sure about the last part , "experience what you intellectually know a lot sooner"?, but the point is illustrated by yourself , your not sure it will help or not?My own view is that people are insecure about trading , don't like the risk , like to be organised , money management etc as if those things will make you succeed , they won't , at the end of your trading career the only the that counts is that you've made profits , if your system doesn't work , IT DOESN'T WORK, and you will not succeed however much money management , however organised you are , how much you talk about it etc . if you have all these things , you will still lose because your system isn't profitable , it's like playing roullette , in the end the bank wins , despite the bank having no control over risk management , no control as to when the client puts his money on which number etc , so has no organised way of trading at all , it takes what comes , but in the end it always wins , sooner or later. And finding these profitable systems doesn't require organisation either , but imagination , didn't Einstien come up with his theory of relativity while out for a walk, not a file or plan in site!!

Get the feeling your putting the cart before the horse.

The reason for me saying 'it will help or not' is that some people will have already convinced themselves that the whole thing does not work, that the whole thing Is a conspiracy or something or whatever it maybe.

 

[Market Wizard]

why re invent the wheeel , because every one else is all ready trading the wheel thats why!!

Exactly my point. Most people are NOT trading the wheel.