purpose of sharing systems

I appreciate that there are so many people sharing the details of their profitable systems....i'm curious about this though-i mean if you have a great system would you really want to be sharing it with everyone?-are people actually trying to help others or trying to improve upon their systems or are there other dubious reasons for sharing?

Do you have any evidence that anyone is sharing a profitable system?

In fact - what is a 'system' exactly? Is there any evidence that profitable 'systems' exist?

DionysusToast said:

Do you have any evidence that anyone is sharing a profitable system?

In fact - what is a 'system' exactly? Is there any evidence that profitable 'systems' exist?

Click to expand...

I know of at least one profitable method thats openly shared on this forum. Its not automated, but I see no reason why it couldnt be, other than the work required.

A system for me at least is something that can be specified unambiguously. A weak example might be something along the lines of "buy 1 lot of EURUSD at 1:00 PM GMT every monday, do not set a stop, and do not set a target, and close the position 8 hours later." I'm sure someone will spot something that I've missed in even that simple example (such as the size of account required to trade this), but hopefully you get the drift.

You know what instrument to buy or sell, when to buy, how much to buy or sell, how to manage the position, and when to close. Any element within that basic framework can be made as simple or complex as you wish.

I'm very firmly with Taleb on this point, at any time market conditions will be such that they are favourable to some particular technique. Even the system above would possibly be profitable in an upwardly trending euro market. Its no secret that mechanical strategies that worked for 2-3 years before failing have been openly shared. Spotting when something isnt working and stopping using it, or at least reducing exposure is a perfectly sensible thing to do. So of course evidence exists that profitable strategies are shared.

Having given this some serious thought, I can see benefits in sharing systems, and its something I may well be doing in the near future (it wont be at t2w !)

i'm just curious, my op is more of a generic nature. It should be rephrased as strategies/systems rather then profitable systems....if you're using certain strategies/systems that are making you money why would you post them up for the world to see?-wouldn't you want to keep the niche is what i'm trying to say

I understand your question I think and though my system does work for me and I might share certain aspects of what I've learned, I don't think that my system will be right for everyone else or necessarily profitable in another's hands. Years ago I would have thought that last line I wrote was a cop-out, but as I've learned through experience, the only way to learn is through experience. You really could post a fool proof system complete but still most would screw it up, and unless you completely understand it, ie. build it, you will never be able to improve it.

There really isn't too much risk to try and help someone else out. It is the nice thing to do.

A lot of folk may have shared/discussed the individual/component parts of their 'system' (me included) but not the whole edge. Unless your trading edge is in the devlopment stage and you feel it might benefit from input of others I see no advantage to sharing a working trading edge on an open forum. It is effectively devaluing your own IP.

G/L

Surely there's no loss in sharing a system unless one of two scenarios apply -
1) You're intending to sell it. But very few of us want to join that particular club.
2) You've found the Holy Grail. About as likely as winning the lottery.

Some might add a third -
3) 'If the system is rubbish, I will look a fool'. Personally, I'd rather hear I'm being foolish here, with wit and for free, than find out from my broker in the shape of a margin call. And who knows, posters here might help improve the system.

tomorton said:

Surely there's no loss in sharing a system unless one of two scenarios apply -
1) You're intending to sell it. But very few of us want to join that particular club.
2) You've found the Holy Grail. About as likely as winning the lottery.

Some might add a third -
3) 'If the system is rubbish, I will look a fool'. Personally, I'd rather hear I'm being foolish here, with wit and for free, than find out from my broker in the shape of a margin call. And who knows, posters here might help improve the system.

Click to expand...

There's no gain to be had by doing it. I've often thought of posting a strat or two, but it's never seemed worthwhile.

DionysusToast said:

In fact - what is a 'system' exactly? Is there any evidence that profitable 'systems' exist?

Click to expand...

The guy had a specific question. My answer is that one should never reveal his edge.

Assuming system means edge, then logically sharing that edge will mean that other traders start to trade it. That means with enough traders sharing, the market will start moving when the edge signals trades. If it is programmable and Goldman Sachs put it on their HFT servers, for everyone else that edge is finished.

Depends what you mean by system. A system is basically an entry point and will always be subject to discretion and a severe change of emotion once in a trade.
So the most important bits have to be learnt the hard way. If you mean by system a rigid set of rules that have to be applied then count me out. There are about 10,000 such formulas on Forex Factory and everyday new ones added, what does that tell you. I post a some of my trades live and show exactly why I took the trade, it is not easily duplicatable.
By all means share info and reasons etc, but while you are studying methods and systems you are unlikely to learn the real things that matter

Adamus said:

Assuming system means edge, then logically sharing that edge will mean that other traders start to trade it. That means with enough traders sharing, the market will start moving when the edge signals trades. If it is programmable and Goldman Sachs put it on their HFT servers, for everyone else that edge is finished.

Click to expand...

I think your fears are overblown. I am sure I am not going to invent any system that Goldman Sachs never thought of and which suddenly becomes traded at such a massive volume that the edge is traded out of the market.

Looking at it the other way, and assuming that a simple long and short MA crossover system doesn't work (let's just assume it doesn't), literally everyone must know about this and must have tried it, but the reason it doesn't work now is not because people found out about it and piled in.

Lord Flasheart said:

Depends what you mean by system. A system is basically an entry point and will always be subject to discretion and a severe change of emotion once in a trade.
So the most important bits have to be learnt the hard way. If you mean by system a rigid set of rules that have to be applied then count me out. There are about 10,000 such formulas on Forex Factory and everyday new ones added, what does that tell you. I post a some of my trades live and show exactly why I took the trade, it is not easily duplicatable.
By all means share info and reasons etc, but while you are studying methods and systems you are unlikely to learn the real things that matter

Click to expand...

You're not right, I am on the very verge of designing such a system. As I was last year and the year before.

tomorton said:

I think your fears are overblown. I am sure I am not going to invent any system that Goldman Sachs never thought of and which suddenly becomes traded at such a massive volume that the edge is traded out of the market.

Looking at it the other way, and assuming that a simple long and short MA crossover system doesn't work (let's just assume it doesn't), literally everyone must know about this and must have tried it, but the reason it doesn't work now is not because people found out about it and piled in.

Click to expand...

Goldman Sachs are just people - ok they are pretty bright people but they will be looking for ideas anywhere they can find them. it's all about inventing ideas. At some point your powers of invention run out and you start looking for any idea you can nick. I bet Goldman Sachs algorithm developers do that too. In fact the geniuses who really invent something new are rarely the ones who benefit from it.

Anyway, I tend to agree with you that just one system that loads of people follow won't die overnight, in fact theoretically it should enhance the profits for the quickest people. But when you have a hundred different systems on a hundred different time scales using a hundred different brokers and trading platforms then at the end of the day it's just going to increase volatility and no-one's going to be able to see the original affect - but it's logical that it must be there, divided and overlaid in many different ways.

First off, If you locate gold in a mountain, who are you going to tell? Surely not another mining company.

Each trader is a miner, we are all after the same exact thing.

Correct?

Why would I tell you were you can find the gold?

Now, also throw in this outlook.

If something works, and your proof is redoubtably on the money, and you tell everyone, well, smart traders will use the same, exact plan.

But what isn't thought of in the long run, just like mining gold, the more the miners and shovels, the faster the gold removed from the mountain, which equals more MOVEMENT, or a greater pace of action.

From the point to entry and exit was smooth before, it wont be so smooth down the road.. Although you might not be scalping, you will find that you MUST adapt to the faster movements, BECAUSE EVERYONE IS DOING THE SAME EXACT THING, AT THE SAME EXACT TIME, So incidentally, your shooting yourself in the foot in the long term..

Now, my point of view with trading, although Im still newbish, (19 months ) isnt about trends, swings, pips, it boils down to money managment.

you can get a zillion pips, but if your money managment program is crap, your just running in place.. A fast run at that..

So, now you have the grail, everyone is using it, and smart traders, I presum,as I again, seeing this thru my perception, is compounding to the MAX. Why not right, you got the grail in your hands. And I will call this the grail, because, well, everyone is using it. Im getting great put action, fast pips, perfect entry and exits, high W/L ratio, Im in it to win it.

When your winning, you max it out.. Its the grail, time to get wealthy beyond your wildest dreams.

But wait, whats happening. Its seems to be losing footing, the action isnt what it was last week.. Why? Because now, you have a mass of 1,000 lot orders flowing in and out, by several people. But the bigger players are playing them alllllllllllllll. They are counter acting this mass of individuals, and everything begins to fail across the board, simply because the grail, didnt adapt to the Big players.

This my not make a load of sense to some, but this is my perception.

THis is another reason, why I wont tell the location of my moutain.

I dont need 20,000+ throwing 1,000 lots each into the action, I need them to continue wondering the range for a chunk of gold, hiting and missing consistanly, so MY mountain will continue to produce gold, FOR ME, MAhuauauahau

If you have an approach to the markets that work-chances are you spent a lot of time getting there. So-what do you do when some lazy dreamer asks you for your golden goose? (Clue - two word answer, where the last word is - "OFF.")

neil has said it - a good reason for not sharing a trading system is because we as average humans do not value 'laziness': we respect hard work and effort. But isn't that a little ironic, considering we're traders, which for the majority of the world's population means the opposite of good honest hard work, and most of us are trading to make needed money so we can avoid working for it?

gozzlemack said:

I appreciate that there are so many people sharing the details of their profitable systems....i'm curious about this though-i mean if you have a great system would you really want to be sharing it with everyone?-are people actually trying to help others or trying to improve upon their systems or are there other dubious reasons for sharing?

Click to expand...

Exhibitionism.

To bring forward a totalitarian world government.The people behind it need killing but it is probably too late.

Adamus said:

Goldman Sachs are just people - ok they are pretty bright people but they will be looking for ideas anywhere they can find them. it's all about inventing ideas. At some point your powers of invention run out and you start looking for any idea you can nick. I bet Goldman Sachs algorithm developers do that too. In fact the geniuses who really invent something new are rarely the ones who benefit from it.

Anyway, I tend to agree with you that just one system that loads of people follow won't die overnight, in fact theoretically it should enhance the profits for the quickest people. But when you have a hundred different systems on a hundred different time scales using a hundred different brokers and trading platforms then at the end of the day it's just going to increase volatility and no-one's going to be able to see the original affect - but it's logical that it must be there, divided and overlaid in many different ways.

Click to expand...

all the big players are going back into programming more intuitive "Human" based systems these days ....they all got spooked by the recent crashes and wont want to make that mistake again

I tried to programme them the "ive got a hangover so no trades from me today" system......but its to complicated for me

N