Hi Nildes,
I don’t really understand Ichimoku Kinkou-hyou charts to be honest and I think I’ll wait for the new PDF manual and help files before I start thinking about them seriously.
I like the new drawing tool set and the swing charts are great, don’t you think?
Regards
Mayfly
I don’t really understand Ichimoku Kinkou-hyou charts to be honest and I think I’ll wait for the new PDF manual and help files before I start thinking about them seriously.
I like the new drawing tool set and the swing charts are great, don’t you think?
Regards
Mayfly
Mayfly,
I had a good play with the Ichimoku's this morning and am currently backtesting them against some P&F decisions I made.
The Swing Charts look interesting too.
Not sure about the Donchians, I'll have to research those.
There's quite a lot of other tweaks too.
Regards
N.
I had a good play with the Ichimoku's this morning and am currently backtesting them against some P&F decisions I made.
The Swing Charts look interesting too.
Not sure about the Donchians, I'll have to research those.
There's quite a lot of other tweaks too.
Regards
N.
Hi mayflyMayfly said:Hi Nildes,
I don’t really understand Ichimoku Kinkou-hyou charts to be honest and I think I’ll wait for the new PDF manual and help files before I start thinking about them seriously.
I like the new drawing tool set and the swing charts are great, don’t you think?
Regards
Mayfly
This was available in....yes you have guessed it...Metastock since 1998 as an add on that one can programme in MS...
I used it and ditched it soon after.......
If you need some reading material then I will e mail it to you....
Hope things are well....
regards
Hi Nildes,
I guess I must be lazy: but when I look at any “normal” chart I can quite easily picture a trader or a chartist drawing them by hand and in “real” time - in the case of swing and P&F Charts this is pretty much how they came about in the first places. The only limitation being that the trader would probably only be able to manage to maintain the charts for a couple – maybe a handful - of instruments at any one time?
Somehow, I can’t quite see this happening with the Ichimoku Kinkou-hyou charts. We’re told that Ichimoku – who invented them during 1930’s - used to hire an army of students to maintain them. It’s not too difficult to believe if you look at the attached chart, but he was doing this well before the desktop calculators arrived on the scene. You could argue that Welles Wilder took a few a shortcuts with some of his computations, but he was working with a programmable Sharp calculator in 1976 and we’re talking secondary charts anyway.
So maybe what I’m saying is is that they don’t talk to me in the same way as the other charts do and they seem unatural in some way. But, who knows, perhaps I’ll come round and learn to use them in the end?
The truth is there’s almost too much to absorb and I guess we have to learn to be more choosy in what we decide to look at and I found the swing charts fairly intuitive when I first saw them. I was able to work out what they they telling me by experimenting with the various settings – although, if you haven’t done so already I think you’ll find this much easier to do if you use the colour coded bars (separately “identifying” the outside and inside days and hooks, etc).
But I’m happy to wait for the new documentation and help files to arrive before a take a look at the new charts.
Hiya Zambuck,
It’s good to hear from you and it’s nice to know that Metastock has managed to steal a march on Technical Analyst for once! And, more seriously, I would like to know why you gave up on them – perhaps we’ll speak next week? Things are a bit frantic here at the moment, but I’ll give you a call before Xmas. In the meantime, all the best to you and yours.
Regards to you both.
Cheers
Mayfly
I guess I must be lazy: but when I look at any “normal” chart I can quite easily picture a trader or a chartist drawing them by hand and in “real” time - in the case of swing and P&F Charts this is pretty much how they came about in the first places. The only limitation being that the trader would probably only be able to manage to maintain the charts for a couple – maybe a handful - of instruments at any one time?
Somehow, I can’t quite see this happening with the Ichimoku Kinkou-hyou charts. We’re told that Ichimoku – who invented them during 1930’s - used to hire an army of students to maintain them. It’s not too difficult to believe if you look at the attached chart, but he was doing this well before the desktop calculators arrived on the scene. You could argue that Welles Wilder took a few a shortcuts with some of his computations, but he was working with a programmable Sharp calculator in 1976 and we’re talking secondary charts anyway.
So maybe what I’m saying is is that they don’t talk to me in the same way as the other charts do and they seem unatural in some way. But, who knows, perhaps I’ll come round and learn to use them in the end?
The truth is there’s almost too much to absorb and I guess we have to learn to be more choosy in what we decide to look at and I found the swing charts fairly intuitive when I first saw them. I was able to work out what they they telling me by experimenting with the various settings – although, if you haven’t done so already I think you’ll find this much easier to do if you use the colour coded bars (separately “identifying” the outside and inside days and hooks, etc).
But I’m happy to wait for the new documentation and help files to arrive before a take a look at the new charts.
Hiya Zambuck,
It’s good to hear from you and it’s nice to know that Metastock has managed to steal a march on Technical Analyst for once!
And, more seriously, I would like to know why you gave up on them – perhaps we’ll speak next week? Things are a bit frantic here at the moment, but I’ll give you a call before Xmas. In the meantime, all the best to you and yours.Regards to you both.
Cheers
Mayfly
Attachments
Last edited:
Hi Mayfly,
I took a look at the chart attached to your post and must confess that it didn't talk to me either.
I attach on from Updata that's a little easier on the eye.
Whether I would chose to use it as a sole guide for trading is unlikely.....but it does give a nice overview IMO.
Regards
N.
I took a look at the chart attached to your post and must confess that it didn't talk to me either.
I attach on from Updata that's a little easier on the eye.
Whether I would chose to use it as a sole guide for trading is unlikely.....but it does give a nice overview IMO.
Regards
N.
Attachments
Mayfly.....Straight from Metastock help file.....
I tried to interpret this method, but I was unable to create a useful and easy exploration for favourable charts....and so I left it for next time....CMO proved to be much better than this...
But anyway a brief description hopefully is helpful to other viewers....
Ichimoku Kinko Hyo
The Ichimoku Kinko Hyo was developed by Goichi Hosoda, a Japanese newspaper writer, writing under the pen name "Ichimoku Sanjin." He developed this charting technique before World War II, and offered it to the public when he published his book in 1969.
Ichimoku translates as "a glance" or "one look." Kinko Hyo translates as "the table of equilibrium" or "balance table." Hence a chart displaying this indicator provides a broad look at the prices in a single view. You should be able to look at the chart and know at a glance whether to buy or sell.
Three key time periods are used to calculate the five individual plots used in the indicator. These times periods are based on the trading conditions at the time the indicator was created: Japan in the 1930's. At the time, a trading week was six days instead of the five days we are used to today. Some traders may wish to alter the time periods to reflect the change in trading days.
9 periods = one and a half weeks (now 7.5 periods. use 7 or 8)
26 periods = one month (now 22 periods)
52 periods = two months (now 44 periods)
The Ichimoku Kinko Hyo indicator is composed of the following five plots, in addition to the closing prices.
Tenkan-sen. The standard line. This plot provides signals when paired with the Kijun-sen. The default periods for this plot is 9. The calculation for this plot is (Highest High + Lowest Low)/2. The highest high is the highest high over the last specified number of time periods. By default, this is the highest high of the last 9 periods. The other highest highs and lowest lows are calculated the same way.
Kijun-sen. The turning line. This plot provides signals when paired with the Tenkan-sen. The default periods for this plot is 26. The calculation for this plot is also (Highest High + Lowest Low)/2. However, the values are taken from a 26 periods time frame instead of a 9 periods time frame.
Senkou Span A. The first span. This plot creates the Kumo (cloud) when paired with Senkou Span B. The default periods for this plot is 52. The calculation for this plot is (Tenkan-sen + Kijun-sen)/2.
Senkou Span B. The second span. This plot creates the Kumo (cloud) when paired with Senkou Span A. The default periods for this plot is 52. The calculation for this plot is (Highest High + Lowest Low)/2.
Chikou Span. The delayed line. This plot is simply the close plotted the desired number of time periods in the past. The default periods for this plot is 26. In this case, today's close would be plotted 26 days ago.
Interpretation
The Ichimoku indicators are used together as one set of signals. If the signals do not agree, the chart is unreliable. When all three signals are in agreement, the signal is strong.
Tenkan-sen / Kijun-sen. A buy signal is generated when the Tenkan-sen crosses above the Kijun-sen. A sell signal is generated when the Tenkan-sen crosses below the Kijun-sen. The Tenkan-sen and Kijun-sen can be used as support and resistance.
Senkou Span A / Senkou Span B. The area between the two Spans is the Kumo, or cloud. A buy signal is generated when the close crosses above the cloud. A sell signal is generated when the close crosses below the cloud. Near the intersections of Span A and Span B, the market has a tendency to become chaotic. The Senkou Spans can also be used as support or resistance. When the close is above the cloud, the Spans act as two levels of support. When the close is below the cloud, the Spans act as two levels of resistance.
Chikou Span / Close. A buy signal is generated when the Chikou Span crosses above the close. A sell signal is generated when the Chikou Span crosses below the close.
I tried to interpret this method, but I was unable to create a useful and easy exploration for favourable charts....and so I left it for next time....CMO proved to be much better than this...
But anyway a brief description hopefully is helpful to other viewers....
Ichimoku Kinko Hyo
The Ichimoku Kinko Hyo was developed by Goichi Hosoda, a Japanese newspaper writer, writing under the pen name "Ichimoku Sanjin." He developed this charting technique before World War II, and offered it to the public when he published his book in 1969.
Ichimoku translates as "a glance" or "one look." Kinko Hyo translates as "the table of equilibrium" or "balance table." Hence a chart displaying this indicator provides a broad look at the prices in a single view. You should be able to look at the chart and know at a glance whether to buy or sell.
Three key time periods are used to calculate the five individual plots used in the indicator. These times periods are based on the trading conditions at the time the indicator was created: Japan in the 1930's. At the time, a trading week was six days instead of the five days we are used to today. Some traders may wish to alter the time periods to reflect the change in trading days.
9 periods = one and a half weeks (now 7.5 periods. use 7 or 8)
26 periods = one month (now 22 periods)
52 periods = two months (now 44 periods)
The Ichimoku Kinko Hyo indicator is composed of the following five plots, in addition to the closing prices.
Tenkan-sen. The standard line. This plot provides signals when paired with the Kijun-sen. The default periods for this plot is 9. The calculation for this plot is (Highest High + Lowest Low)/2. The highest high is the highest high over the last specified number of time periods. By default, this is the highest high of the last 9 periods. The other highest highs and lowest lows are calculated the same way.
Kijun-sen. The turning line. This plot provides signals when paired with the Tenkan-sen. The default periods for this plot is 26. The calculation for this plot is also (Highest High + Lowest Low)/2. However, the values are taken from a 26 periods time frame instead of a 9 periods time frame.
Senkou Span A. The first span. This plot creates the Kumo (cloud) when paired with Senkou Span B. The default periods for this plot is 52. The calculation for this plot is (Tenkan-sen + Kijun-sen)/2.
Senkou Span B. The second span. This plot creates the Kumo (cloud) when paired with Senkou Span A. The default periods for this plot is 52. The calculation for this plot is (Highest High + Lowest Low)/2.
Chikou Span. The delayed line. This plot is simply the close plotted the desired number of time periods in the past. The default periods for this plot is 26. In this case, today's close would be plotted 26 days ago.
Interpretation
The Ichimoku indicators are used together as one set of signals. If the signals do not agree, the chart is unreliable. When all three signals are in agreement, the signal is strong.
Tenkan-sen / Kijun-sen. A buy signal is generated when the Tenkan-sen crosses above the Kijun-sen. A sell signal is generated when the Tenkan-sen crosses below the Kijun-sen. The Tenkan-sen and Kijun-sen can be used as support and resistance.
Senkou Span A / Senkou Span B. The area between the two Spans is the Kumo, or cloud. A buy signal is generated when the close crosses above the cloud. A sell signal is generated when the close crosses below the cloud. Near the intersections of Span A and Span B, the market has a tendency to become chaotic. The Senkou Spans can also be used as support or resistance. When the close is above the cloud, the Spans act as two levels of support. When the close is below the cloud, the Spans act as two levels of resistance.
Chikou Span / Close. A buy signal is generated when the Chikou Span crosses above the close. A sell signal is generated when the Chikou Span crosses below the close.
Hi Chaps,
Thanks for the feedback and thanks for sharing the Metastock help files with us, Zambuck, although I’m more interested in your comments because I don’t think that’ll be in any rush to use them either!
Anyway, here’s what David Linton had to say about them this morning:
“Now before you say 'there is no way I will be using those', let us tell you we have said the same thing for some time.
We were dismissive of Ichimoku charts for years mainly because we didn't know how to read or understand them. Part of the problem with this technique is nearly all the teaching has been in Japanese and because there is quite a lot on an Ichi chart, they can be difficult
to interpret if you don't know how.
We became complete converts when we were shown them in one of the presentations at the International Federation of Technical Analysts Annual Conference in Madrid this autumn. Delegates came from all over the world …. One of the speakers from a major US bank presented Ichimoku charts in a way we had not seen them before and showed how well they worked by countless examples.
The chart [below] is a daily Ichimoku chart of the SAB Miller. The bar chart is a normal bar chart. From this, two averages (but not moving averages) are derived and how these two lines interact is useful to understand.
The shaded area is the cloud and this is important for a number of reasons. The blue line
is the lagging line and this is also important. There are some interesting factors at the
moment in relation to the clound on the Ichimoku chart. It's the way these lines interact with the cloud thats important. Notice how the bar chart dips in and out of the cloud.”
I guess that’s quite helpful in the sense that I know more than I did before I read it (especially because David has annotated the chart), but it doesn’t tell me why I should be using them and I’d like to know if they’re equally as "powerful" when you use them with interval data.
I think I'll wait and see how things shape up?
HTH
Regards
Mayfly
Thanks for the feedback and thanks for sharing the Metastock help files with us, Zambuck, although I’m more interested in your comments because I don’t think that’ll be in any rush to use them either!
Anyway, here’s what David Linton had to say about them this morning:
“Now before you say 'there is no way I will be using those', let us tell you we have said the same thing for some time.
We were dismissive of Ichimoku charts for years mainly because we didn't know how to read or understand them. Part of the problem with this technique is nearly all the teaching has been in Japanese and because there is quite a lot on an Ichi chart, they can be difficult
to interpret if you don't know how.
We became complete converts when we were shown them in one of the presentations at the International Federation of Technical Analysts Annual Conference in Madrid this autumn. Delegates came from all over the world …. One of the speakers from a major US bank presented Ichimoku charts in a way we had not seen them before and showed how well they worked by countless examples.
The chart [below] is a daily Ichimoku chart of the SAB Miller. The bar chart is a normal bar chart. From this, two averages (but not moving averages) are derived and how these two lines interact is useful to understand.
The shaded area is the cloud and this is important for a number of reasons. The blue line
is the lagging line and this is also important. There are some interesting factors at the
moment in relation to the clound on the Ichimoku chart. It's the way these lines interact with the cloud thats important. Notice how the bar chart dips in and out of the cloud.”
I guess that’s quite helpful in the sense that I know more than I did before I read it (especially because David has annotated the chart), but it doesn’t tell me why I should be using them and I’d like to know if they’re equally as "powerful" when you use them with interval data.
I think I'll wait and see how things shape up?
HTH
Regards
Mayfly
Attachments
GruntnoWay
Active member
- Messages
- 159
- Likes
- 2
Not sure I would trust the metastock interpretation. To start with they call Tenkan the standard line when in fact its the turning line. The Kijun is the standard line. As I understand, the crossing of these two lines is barely significant. I look forward to more revelations. Perhaps Updata will give us more information. I am still learning but it seems to me that these charts are more about telling you of opportunities than giving buy and sell signals. The charts look really good though. I have experimented with thicker lines which makes them easier to read. I recall a write up in S&C but can't remember when it was. Anyone know?
GruntnoWay said:
I don't think so as such. I think Updata are looking to make their money by getting subscribers to go and attend training courses to use tools like these.
I did have a look at the Investopedia site which has some good explanations of how the basic components work and can see that the Ichimoku chart can give a very comprehensive overview or any particular stock very quickly.
However, the devil is in the detail and I suspect that to learn how to pick out the finer combinations of factors that give Buy & Sell signals, you'd have to go and attend their next seminar.
As it is, Investopedia says:
Tenkan crosses Kijun from below, Strong Buy, Strong sell when opposite, signals above the Kumo
Tenkan crosses above Kijun from below Buy, Sell when opposite, signals within the Kumo
Tenkan crosses above Kijun from below, Weak Buy...Weak Sell when opposite, signals below the Kumo.
Strength is shown to be with Sellers if Chikou below current price and Buyers if opposite.
Suppoer and Resistance represented by Kumo.
Trends determined by looking where prices is in relation to Kumo. Below is downward, Above is upward.
I'm having a bit of a play with it to try and see how it all works.
Regards
N.
GNW
I don’t know about a TAS&C, I’ll have a look later and come back to you if I find anything.
[GNW - I've attached the article you want below, it was FOC car of forex-books anyway]
In any case, there’s quite a lot on the web – it’s mostly Forex bandwagon stuff - if you perform a search on Google using their proper title, “Ichimoku Kinko Hyo”? Personally, I’m quite happy to wait for the updates to the PDF and the local helpfiles.
I suppose you’ve seen Sarkie’s comments about the timeframe issue(s) on the Updata board?
Thanks Nildes, I’d be interested in anything that you find useful - maybe some of the Metastock users - or the software users for that matter - would also like to contribute to this thread?
Cheers
Mayfly
I don’t know about a TAS&C, I’ll have a look later and come back to you if I find anything.
[GNW - I've attached the article you want below, it was FOC car of forex-books anyway]
In any case, there’s quite a lot on the web – it’s mostly Forex bandwagon stuff - if you perform a search on Google using their proper title, “Ichimoku Kinko Hyo”? Personally, I’m quite happy to wait for the updates to the PDF and the local helpfiles.
I suppose you’ve seen Sarkie’s comments about the timeframe issue(s) on the Updata board?
Thanks Nildes, I’d be interested in anything that you find useful - maybe some of the Metastock users - or the software users for that matter - would also like to contribute to this thread?
Cheers
Mayfly
Last edited:
GruntnoWay
Active member
- Messages
- 159
- Likes
- 2
Roberto said:
that's what i understand. i guess it depends whether you want to use english or japanese words.
I spent the whole afternoon (instead of shopping) on these charts and am beginning to find them very very useful. Not sure why Zambuck rejected them. Its possible that they are wrong in MS seeing that he had to program them in himself. Watch this space I will try to explain my findings once I have made some good trades.
Ok, thanks. I know almost nothing about these and haven't even seen the new ones, but I sometimes (well, often, to be honest) use what Alexander Elder would call a "fast and dirty approximation" of the "clouds" idea on my own charts, which I've constructed myself from two different right-shifted EMA's, and I sometimes avoid trading when the price is between them. I'll be very interested to follow the rest of this thread and see what you guys have to say.GruntnoWay said:
I'm looking forwards to hearing how you get on with them.
FWIW: google throws up a couple of threads dedicated to "Ichimoku Kinko Hyo" on the moneytec board -I've never heard of it and I'm usually loathe to suggest BBs for all the usual reasons, but you never know?!
You'll find the threads here: http://www.moneytec.com/forums/_forumdisplay/_s-dac57ca93faebe36a71bb7a9d7e3f973/_forumid-92
HTH
Cheers
Mayfly
Perhaps I can explain more ......GruntnoWay said:
Earlier version of MS did not have Ichimoku Kinko Hyo as standard and that's why I had to programme these in from a MS formulae site. As there was no further explanation I did not pay too much attention to these...I developed a system that I used and stuck to it..!!
In ver 9 of MS they are built in, but then I haven't tried these out again..I use CMO along with Aroon which works much better in identifying the trending securities...
I tried to create an exploration for Ichimoku Kinko Hyo charts to filter out charts that do not meet the criteria as I don't like to 'sit and flick' charts, but to concentrate on charts that needs a look.....and as far as I am aware no exploration for these charts has been provided in MS ver 9...however I understand that someone has now wriiten an exploration for Ichimoku, Renko and Kagi for MS 9 so I think I need another look at these indicators....
GruntnoWay
Active member
- Messages
- 159
- Likes
- 2
Zambuck if you find out anything let me know. So far I have seen the Cloud is really important for support and resistance. I know that sounds obvious but know this does help the reading of other charts. I don't see the turning and standard lines as important at all
Roberto,Roberto said:
I stuck with the standard terminology so that everything was consistent although I did miss out the second half of some words.
FWIW, there is no particular merit in this and it would perhaps be better to use words like Turning Line since it more usefully describes its function.
As for the Clouds (Kumo) the text describes them as the space between Senkou Span A (Tenkan-san + Kijun-sen)/2 plotted 26 time periods ahead
And
Senkou Span B (Highest high + Lowest Low)/2 calculated over the last 44 time periods plotted 22 periods ahead.
It seems to me that the clouds are expressing some sort of relationship between the trend and the variance.
Regards
N.
A link for S & C article by Ken Muranaka.....
http://www.forex-books.com/articles/techan/ichimoku.pdf
http://www.forex-books.com/articles/techan/ichimoku.pdf
