Trading with a view to join a prop firm

This is a discussion on Trading with a view to join a prop firm within the Trading Firms forums, part of the Trading Career category; Originally Posted by Nowler I'm pretty sure academic snobbery will exclude me from getting a job at an investment bank ...

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Old Nov 17, 2017, 4:26am   #46
DT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowler View Post
I'm pretty sure academic snobbery will exclude me from getting a job at an investment bank but am I wasting my time trying to find a prop firm that will hire me with 6 months independent trading under my belt?
It depends... if you were to trade futures for 6 months, intraday and were consistently profitable and then could bring a statement from your FCM to some arcade/prop firm (there aren't many left though) then they'd probably be quite receptive to you - though you may find that perhaps you'd be better off sticking with trading your own account at that point.

You mention academic snobbery but that generally isn't the case - in some cases it might be a crude filter in other cases a quantitative undergrad is rather useful... if you don't at least have the basics of multivariable calculus, linear algebra that any Maths/Physics/Engineering grad will have then getting to grips with relevant statistical techniques isn't going to go so well. It really depends on the type of firm, what they do etc..

Some prop firms are into HFT, HFT pretty much lends itself to being a prop activity given the strategies often have limited capacity and rather high returns - this is probably not what you're after if you don't have significant technical skills to be a developer or academic background to be a researcher.

There are the options market makers, they still trade from the screen, though generally they'll look for a 2:1 degree or above as a filter... plenty of them aren't necessarily all that picky on the initial screening but will get you to sit a bunch of aptitude tests with a load of other candidates and will quickly cut out most candidates on the first test - if you're not quick at doing simple calculations in your head at speed then plenty of these firms will be a non starter for you.

Lastly, the sort of firm you're probably thinking of is often referred to as a trading arcade - problem you have here is that you're basically just over a decade or so too late for this - the HFT firms have made futures markets much more efficient and sucked up a lot of the low hanging fruit the traders at these sorts of firms used to rely on. There are also some of firms out there now that will claim to be trading firms and will be willing to sell you a training course - avoid them for obvious reasons!

How arcades used to work - typically they'd get a bunch of guys in in their 20s, mostly recent uni graduates, and sit people in front of a simulator for 8 weeks and if you were able to consistently make money then they'd let you trade live with 1 lot then scale up from there - invariably the software used was TT for trading/sim and CQG (usually shared between two people) for charts.

The training consisted of presentations from account managers from various software vendors and exchanges (you'd usually get some pens or a mug and some educational material from the exchange - the guy from the Montreal exchange gave us all a pot of maple syrup!) and in the week before trading on the sim we spent some time reading through various material from the Eurex and CME websites. We also had a few books to read and write reviews on (presumably to demonstrate we had read and understood them) and a couple of little projects to work on. Some basic training was also presented in house regarding economic releases, trading spreads etc.. Basically none of this training was any secret sauce that would lead you to trading riches - there is very little incentive for some senior trader to teach you exactly what he does and have you copy him - he might as well just increase his size instead. Essentially most of what you'd learn on such a training scheme you could learn for yourself at home.

Some arcades would have everyone trading say STIRs, others including the one I was at were far more flexible and would let you try various things on the sim(AEX, CAC, FTSE, EuroStoxx, Dax, Bund/Bobl, WTI/Brent etc..)... so long as you were consistent at it then you'd be able to go live.

You'd get a basic salary, but this was essentially a draw down from the account... so this is a cost that immediately starts to add up before you've even gone live and that you'll need to cover with your future trading profits. The sim is free but once you go live you're looking at a couple of grand in software costs per month, additional fees depending on the number of exchanges you need to add, a desk fee and the cost of your basic salary, only once you've made enough money to cover those costs can you start getting into the profit split, which if you're fully backed by the firm typically started at 50% and then scaled upwards in your favour at set increments.

These trading firms don't generally offer these sorts of deals any more - the reason why is obvious, most people can't make money like that any more... point and click trading of futures just isn't anywhere near as feasible as it was as the markets are so much more efficient. Surprisingly though a few people seemingly still make money and so there are still some clearing firms/arcades who will rent desks and might perhaps be interested in some sort of arrangement if you're able to demonstrate some track record - it certainly isn't profitable anymore though for them to take on a whole bunch of 20-somethings and let them loose on the markets as they used to while paying them a basic salary.

Just to comment on some things you've mentioned:

The training isn't much to get your hopes up about, you'll need to discover your own edges.

You mention wanting to earn 30-50k EUR, that sort of amount is barely going to cover your costs in an arcade.

You also mention having traded for 6 months, have taken a big loss and only the last month is profitable (though you're still at a loss overall) and somewhere else in the thread you mention that you've done 350 trades in that period - assuming these were evenly distributed then your last month where you believe things have changed you've perhaps got a sample of only 60 trades from which you're making that assertion... if you were scalping some futures market on a sim you might well make this many trades in a single day, I'm not sure you can really conclude much from it at all.


You mention trading FX, I'm assuming this is via some bucketshop where you're forced to cross their spread in order to trade? If you were trying to find out if you had some edge in intraday trading in order to perhaps go to some prop firm then having to cross that spread is likely going to present some serious problems for you. As another poster pointed out earlier in the thread for these types of 'prop firms'/trading arcades you'd generally be trading futures (or equities too in the case of US firms).

You mention moving to London - that could turn into an expensive waste of time, you don't know that you're profitable yet, if your plan is to build up this track record you're planning to build up then adding additional costs to that probably isn't a good idea. I'll again reiterate that this sort of intraday trading isn't so feasible these days, you've got no idea yet if you'll be profitable - most of the people who used to do it for a living a decade ago aren't anymore so chances are rather slim!

And back to what I mentioned at the start, supposing you find yourself in the unlikely position where you are consistently profitable over the course of 6 months when trading futures intraday, you might well find yourself in a position where it is preferable to simply carry on with what you're already doing rather than go to some arcade and add on various fixed costs + give up a profit split - then again benefiting from lower RT costs and access to funding could be preferable.

Anyway I realise this has turned into a bit of a wall of text but hopefully some of it may be useful or give you pause to think.

--------------------------------------------------------

TL;DR:

for the trading arcade type prop firms in London you'd generally need to trade futures - you're very, very unlikely to be successful at point and click trading of futures intraday unless you build a time machine and go back 15 years - lots of these firms have closed down for good reason!

you might possibly get a shot at an options market maker if you're good at aptitude tests, mental maths etc..

though generally for the other types of prop firms you'd probably need to go back to university - for anything involving systematic trading/HFT then relevant post grad degrees and/or significant technical skills are generally needed
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Old Nov 17, 2017, 11:26am   #47
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Hi Nowler,
Wise words from DT, above. If you're not put off by what he says and are determined to go down the prop shop route then, if you've not seen it already, this FAQ may contain some useful pointers: How Do I get a Job Trading?
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Old Nov 17, 2017, 4:42pm   #48
Joined Sep 2017
Nowler started this thread First of all,
Thank you very much for the informative response mate!
I really appreciate you taking the time out to help me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DT View Post
It depends... if you were to trade futures for 6 months, intraday and were consistently profitable and then could bring a statement from your FCM to some arcade/prop firm (there aren't many left though) then they'd probably be quite receptive to you - though you may find that perhaps you'd be better off sticking with trading your own account at that point.
Yeah, if I was to get to that stage then i'd be better off just trading my own account. Being educated by people who have an invested interest in me succeeding is a huge selling point for me. Without that (If I have to go a do the learning myself) then working with a prop is far less attractive to me. It would still be beneficial in the sense that I could get a decent wage for 2-3 and then trade my own larger account but I refuse to pay them for my training. They will get plenty back when I start working for them (hard work, determination and adaptable), so if they lack the ability to see that, then I don't want to associate with them. I would like to see what it's like from a firm point of view though! Being a retail trader, we don't have access to some of the info that they would likely have. Having at least some experience from a firm point of view would make me a far better retail trader.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DT View Post
You mention academic snobbery but that generally isn't the case - in some cases it might be a crude filter in other cases a quantitative undergrad is rather useful... if you don't at least have the basics of multivariable calculus, linear algebra that any Maths/Physics/Engineering grad will have then getting to grips with relevant statistical techniques isn't going to go so well. It really depends on the type of firm, what they do etc..

Some prop firms are into HFT, HFT pretty much lends itself to being a prop activity given the strategies often have limited capacity and rather high returns - this is probably not what you're after if you don't have significant technical skills to be a developer or academic background to be a researcher.

There are the options market makers, they still trade from the screen, though generally they'll look for a 2:1 degree or above as a filter... plenty of them aren't necessarily all that picky on the initial screening but will get you to sit a bunch of aptitude tests with a load of other candidates and will quickly cut out most candidates on the first test - if you're not quick at doing simple calculations in your head at speed then plenty of these firms will be a non starter for you.
Haha, I don't even know what multivariable calculus or linear algebra is I know it's some form of maths... I know what multivariable means, and linear.
I want to avoid math heavy firms like the plague! I realise that probably the majority of firms rely on such a level of maths, but I have no interest in it and don't need to do it in order to take money from a market. So that rules out most firms... What would be suitable to me will be fiercely fought for by applicants but quite frankly, as stated above, if I have to go do my own learning then it takes away a lot of the attraction of joining one of these crowds.

It's probably not that I am unable to do maths at a high level. It's likely because I missed a lot of 1st year in secondary school that makes math tricky for me...I simply missed some of the building blocks due to being in hospital (I could always go learn it now). School was a horrible experience for me and as soon as I finished 3rd year, I left school and went working construction. Clearly I'm not stupid as I didn't even finish school and still ended up with a 2:1 in university. Also, due to the nature of my degree I have a good understanding of the brain, learning and memory, which gives me a great advantage when it comes to learning new things. So I could probably learn how to do this higher level of math that these firms require, but I ask myself...what's the point? I can do simple arithmetic. Granted, im not quick (a few seconds and maybe a few fingers). I passed all 3 modules on statistics in uni (including advanced stats) and got a 2:1 in my quantitative dissertation on cognitive reserve, schemata complexity and working memory capacity. So I am not totally inept with maths/stats. But again...what's the point in learning all this? I only seem to need it for the type of prop firms that I don't want to work at anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DT View Post
Lastly, the sort of firm you're probably thinking of is often referred to as a trading arcade - problem you have here is that you're basically just over a decade or so too late for this - the HFT firms have made futures markets much more efficient and sucked up a lot of the low hanging fruit the traders at these sorts of firms used to rely on. There are also some of firms out there now that will claim to be trading firms and will be willing to sell you a training course - avoid them for obvious reasons!

How arcades used to work - typically they'd get a bunch of guys in in their 20s, mostly recent uni graduates, and sit people in front of a simulator for 8 weeks and if you were able to consistently make money then they'd let you trade live with 1 lot then scale up from there - invariably the software used was TT for trading/sim and CQG (usually shared between two people) for charts.
I've been told before that I am a decade or more too late for some of this stuff. It's a pity but it is what it is I guess.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DT View Post
The training consisted of presentations from account managers from various software vendors and exchanges (you'd usually get some pens or a mug and some educational material from the exchange - the guy from the Montreal exchange gave us all a pot of maple syrup!) and in the week before trading on the sim we spent some time reading through various material from the Eurex and CME websites. We also had a few books to read and write reviews on (presumably to demonstrate we had read and understood them) and a couple of little projects to work on. Some basic training was also presented in house regarding economic releases, trading spreads etc.. Basically none of this training was any secret sauce that would lead you to trading riches - there is very little incentive for some senior trader to teach you exactly what he does and have you copy him - he might as well just increase his size instead. Essentially most of what you'd learn on such a training scheme you could learn for yourself at home

You'd get a basic salary, but this was essentially a draw down from the account... so this is a cost that immediately starts to add up before you've even gone live and that you'll need to cover with your future trading profits. The sim is free but once you go live you're looking at a couple of grand in software costs per month, additional fees depending on the number of exchanges you need to add, a desk fee and the cost of your basic salary, only once you've made enough money to cover those costs can you start getting into the profit split, which if you're fully backed by the firm typically started at 50% and then scaled upwards in your favour at set increments.
That's the thing...the more time that passes the more I learn. The more I learn, the less I want a prop firm to work at. I believe that learning the theory behind trading is totally doable! All you need to do is close your mouth, open your eyes and ears and put in the effort. Granted the psychology of trading is a bit of a monster but I don't need a firm to help me with that as I can do it myself. I agree with you, the majority, if not all trading education is no secret sauce... So that I can and am doing myself, but at this early stage it would be nice to be getting my education from someone with an invested interest when it comes to me succeeding. It's important to say that most of what I know about prop firms are totally centred on that place that I applied to. They were willing to pay me during the training period of a year or more and then would be likely to take me on as an employee should I pass the training period. That specific situation was the real drive behind me wanting to prop trade. I dont want to work at a prop firm bad enough to go do all the leg work myself and then swan in a throw money at them to use their stuff... I'm sure I would have had some fees in the place I applied to but they were willing to invest in me by paying me while I train.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DT View Post
Just to comment on some things you've mentioned:

The training isn't much to get your hopes up about, you'll need to discover your own edges.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DT View Post
You mention wanting to earn 30-50k EUR, that sort of amount is barely going to cover your costs in an arcade.
That figure was in relation to the place that was willing to pay me to train with them. The only reason I kept using that figure is because it was the only real figure I have seen in relation to early days pay at a prop. Of course fees would eat into that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DT View Post
You also mention having traded for 6 months, have taken a big loss and only the last month is profitable (though you're still at a loss overall) and somewhere else in the thread you mention that you've done 350 trades in that period - assuming these were evenly distributed then your last month where you believe things have changed you've perhaps got a sample of only 60 trades from which you're making that assertion... if you were scalping some futures market on a sim you might well make this many trades in a single day, I'm not sure you can really conclude much from it at all.
That figure of 350 trades is likely wrong. I was using myfxbook for my stats but recently the system went screwy and now only shows that I have 50 trades...
I did think that I must have done more than 350 trades. It must be more than that... but either way, the number isn't what I would be looking for if I was trying to make some statistically significant assumption/inference. I am still very early in my trading career, I agree. It's very difficult to make any claims with only 1 month of profitability. That record is now gone anyway because I started trying out some new styles. Mixed results so far but I should have a clearer picture in another few weeks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DT View Post
You mention trading FX, I'm assuming this is via some bucketshop where you're forced to cross their spread in order to trade? If you were trying to find out if you had some edge in intraday trading in order to perhaps go to some prop firm then having to cross that spread is likely going to present some serious problems for you. As another poster pointed out earlier in the thread for these types of 'prop firms'/trading arcades you'd generally be trading futures (or equities too in the case of US firms).
Yes, that's correct.
The spread is a royal pain in my rectum!
I can manage it, but it just feels so unnecessary ... it gets in the way of my trading big time! It messes with my orders for stops and entries. I can still see a way of making money from it though, but I would like to not have to deal with widening spread dragging me in and out of trades that I am not wanting to.


NOTE: I am caught for time as I have a few hours work now but I will respond to the rest when I get back at around 8 or 9.

Thank you again for the very informative reply my friend!
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Old Nov 17, 2017, 11:43pm   #49
Joined Sep 2017
Nowler started this thread I apologize for splitting my response into two parts. I recently acquired a few hours in my local bar and had a shift fast approaching when I was responding to you in the first part. I had written too much to just delete and write again later


Just to note, I read back over your entire post again so as not to leave anything important out. It is a very useful post mate, thanks. Gives me a bit of a different perspective, which is invaluable!
I hadn't realised that the end of your post was just a summary. I thought I was going to be responding to more. I probably could have just said all this on in the initial post a few hours ago


Quote:
Originally Posted by DT View Post

You mention moving to London - that could turn into an expensive waste of time, you don't know that you're profitable yet, if your plan is to build up this track record you're planning to build up then adding additional costs to that probably isn't a good idea. I'll again reiterate that this sort of intraday trading isn't so feasible these days, you've got no idea yet if you'll be profitable - most of the people who used to do it for a living a decade ago aren't anymore so chances are rather slim!
I will explain in more detail if you require but to be a short and concise as possible, me moving will be an astronomical improvement on my life either way. I reckon I could easily write an academic paper on how my moving would improve my trading also This move will absolutely crown me! Financial obstacles or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DT View Post
And back to what I mentioned at the start, supposing you find yourself in the unlikely position where you are consistently profitable over the course of 6 months when trading futures intraday, you might well find yourself in a position where it is preferable to simply carry on with what you're already doing rather than go to some arcade and add on various fixed costs + give up a profit split - then again benefiting from lower RT costs and access to funding could be preferable.

The more I have responded to you the less I want to join a prop
I am putting a lot of value on getting my educational information from people who (should) know what they are doing. It would be an easier process for me but I am well capable of figuring this out myself. I just got really excited about not having to not sift through the BS online just to find the quality info AND were going to pay me to train! Of course I wouldn't just take what they say as gospel. We all have our own responsibilities to be critical. Seeing the market from their point of view though... and the money I could generate in the short term... those are the big factors that i'll be missing out on should I never prop trade.

Realistically speaking, if I have nothing in savings right now, growing an account up the required amount to be able to earn even the most basic of wage to live on is going to be a task. I could deposit an initial 2k, then the rest would be monthly deposits and trading the account all the while. The difference in capital is the big elephant in the room. For my own account, I think i'll need at least 10k capital in order to even start to have hopes of making a very modest and sustainable income. I think I can manage 10k over a reasonable timeframe (relative). But that's no "50k/year" which I could earn at a prop.

I think the smart choice is to reevaluate after I move. That will be a dramatic change to say the least I feel like this is the perfect opportunity to drop some sort of quote about building structures on sand foundations.. but i've got nada...not a thing...


EDIT: I had a lot of typos.

Last edited by Nowler; Nov 17, 2017 at 11:53pm.
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Old Nov 18, 2017, 1:48pm   #50
Joined Sep 2017
Nowler started this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by timsk View Post
Hi Nowler,
Wise words from DT, above. If you're not put off by what he says and are determined to go down the prop shop route then, if you've not seen it already, this FAQ may contain some useful pointers: How Do I get a Job Trading?
Tim.
I had not forgotten about your reply mate.
I will read through the link shortly. I'm sure i'll pick up a few useful pointers
Thanks
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Old Nov 20, 2017, 10:33pm   #51
Joined Sep 2017
Nowler started this thread Further details on my failure to attain an interview:

One of the main fellas at the firm was kind enough to give me a follow up email after I requested, if possible, that I get some form of indication as to why I wasn't successful.

Turns out my academic background was not doing me any favours.
I didn't bother trying to change their decision. This has got to be my school performance as a kid...It can't be my university results, which I would have thought was more relevant

Well at least I know where the issue was now, which is closure.
I thanked them for the opportunity to apply and wish them the best.

"Never slam doors that you may one day need to walk back through."

This has however added a little fuel to my fire.
I want to prove that they made a bad decision
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Old Nov 20, 2017, 11:11pm   #52
FXX
Joined Oct 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowler View Post
Further details on my failure to attain an interview:

One of the main fellas at the firm was kind enough to give me a follow up email after I requested, if possible, that I get some form of indication as to why I wasn't successful.

Turns out my academic background was not doing me any favours.
I didn't bother trying to change their decision. This has got to be my school performance as a kid...It can't be my university results, which I would have thought was more relevant

Well at least I know where the issue was now, which is closure.
I thanked them for the opportunity to apply and wish them the best.

"Never slam doors that you may one day need to walk back through."

This has however added a little fuel to my fire.
I want to prove that they made a bad decision
What degree do you have?
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Old Nov 20, 2017, 11:50pm   #53
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What degree do you have?
Psychology degree.

When I said more relevant, I meant it in terms of gauging my capabilities. Not in the sense that an Engineering or Physics degree would be relevant than a childcare degree.

Perhaps they are underappreciating the statistical and analytical nature of psychology...
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Old Nov 21, 2017, 12:05am   #54
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowler View Post
Psychology degree.

When I said more relevant, I meant it in terms of gauging my capabilities. Not in the sense that an Engineering or Physics degree would be relevant than a childcare degree.

Perhaps they are underappreciating the statistical and analytical nature of psychology...
I've said it before and I'll say it again mate......

They care about money - they are a business after all, this being your book. If you can show you can trade (whatever that means), they will take you any day of the week. Providing you fit it with their like minded people etc. Obviously that's important.

So, show you can trade, and they'll show you where to sit.

Good trading houses will only take on winners - otherwise if it were that easy to train people up (at their cost with their money to back), they would take anyone. They don't - only winners.

In short- get a good book then get a good desk.

Lee
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Old Nov 21, 2017, 11:22am   #55
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Only put your degree on your cv. Don't mention earlier qualifications.
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Old Nov 21, 2017, 3:21pm   #56
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Only put your degree on your cv. Don't mention earlier qualifications.
They specifically emailed me looking for it
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Old Nov 27, 2017, 6:14am   #57
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Originally Posted by Nowler View Post
Yeah, if I was to get to that stage then i'd be better off just trading my own account.
not necessarily, though whether you'd be better off trading your own account or not could be a pretty objective decision if you ever got to that point

Quote:
Without that (If I have to go a do the learning myself) then working with a prop is far less attractive to me. It would still be beneficial in the sense that I could get a decent wage for 2-3 and then trade my own larger account but I refuse to pay them for my training.
the decent wage for 2-3 years would be coming from your trading profits and in reality it isn't all going to be a wage it is likely a very small salary at best and a profit split... your salary is simply another cost along with desk fees, software fees etc.. that you need to cover before getting the profit split. A trading firm/arcade isn't going to keep you around for 2-3 years if you're not profitable.

Quote:
They will get plenty back when I start working for them (hard work, determination and adaptable), so if they lack the ability to see that, then I don't want to associate with them. I would like to see what it's like from a firm point of view though! Being a retail trader, we don't have access to some of the info that they would likely have. Having at least some experience from a firm point of view would make me a far better retail trader.
It perhaps would be useful experience but there isn't usually much information advantage to being in these types of prop firms, you can subscribe to some squawk service etc.. from home

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowler View Post
Psychology degree.
[...]
Perhaps they are underappreciating the statistical and analytical nature of psychology...
perhaps you're inflating it somewhat... not trying to have a go or put you down here but you made this comment previously:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowler View Post
Haha, I don't even know what multivariable calculus or linear algebra is I know it's some form of maths... I know what multivariable means, and linear.
I don't see how you could have studied much re: statistics without having at least some undergrad maths - how do you even start to understand the basics of regression/linear models etc.. without having some knowledge of linear algebra. It seems more like psychology undergrads get given a superficial overview, maybe use some software like SPSS etc.. and essentially treat it all as some black box.

(just as an aside I'd thoroughly recommend Gilbert Strang's linear algebra course published on the MIT open courseware site)

anyway I think you're right to not want to hand over hefty amounts of cash to the various training companies out there - though perhaps it might be worth checking out something like this:

https://www.topsteptrader.com

while I'd be a little bit skeptical about their program for a few reasons perhaps it would be worth a one off $100 for a bit of 'training' and some time to play around on a sim... just use it as a starting point then perhaps get a free trial/use of a sim at a broker yourself
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Old Nov 27, 2017, 12:30pm   #58
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Start trading bitcoin and retire next week.
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Old Nov 27, 2017, 4:56pm   #59
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the decent wage for 2-3 years would be coming from your trading profits and in reality it isn't all going to be a wage it is likely a very small salary at best and a profit split... your salary is simply another cost along with desk fees, software fees etc.. that you need to cover before getting the profit split. A trading firm/arcade isn't going to keep you around for 2-3 years if you're not profitable.
Of course


Quote:
Originally Posted by DT View Post
It perhaps would be useful experience but there isn't usually much information advantage to being in these types of prop firms, you can subscribe to some squawk service etc.. from home
I think the experience would be very useful. The end game is always my own account/my own business though. Purchasing Squawk is a bit out of my reach at the moment as I am not working. Even when I move to the UK, i'll likely be getting a low paying job, so even then, Squawk might be out of my reach then too... at least the real-time one anyway. I'll reevaluate this when I move, likely in a month or 2. There's too much uncertainty for me to make a call



Quote:
Originally Posted by DT View Post
perhaps you're inflating it somewhat... not trying to have a go or put you down here but you made this comment previously:

*comment*

I don't see how you could have studied much re: statistics without having at least some undergrad maths - how do you even start to understand the basics of regression/linear models etc.. without having some knowledge of linear algebra. It seems more like psychology undergrads get given a superficial overview, maybe use some software like SPSS etc.. and essentially treat it all as some black box.

(just as an aside I'd thoroughly recommend Gilbert Strang's linear algebra course published on the MIT open courseware site)
Perhaps I am inflating it, but perhaps I am not.
That comment I made to you last week, if I was to sit those same stats tests last week (or this week for that matter) i'd likely fail. Since I finished uni 2 years ago or so, I have not used this stats stuff much. The saying "if you don't use it, you lose it" comes to mind. Not that it's gone forever, but rather that I would have to be immersed in it again, then it would come back to me. I guess my comment was more tongue in cheek. Sorry, it wasn't helpful.


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Originally Posted by DT View Post
anyway I think you're right to not want to hand over hefty amounts of cash to the various training companies out there - though perhaps it might be worth checking out something like this:

https://www.topsteptrader.com

while I'd be a little bit skeptical about their program for a few reasons perhaps it would be worth a one off $100 for a bit of 'training' and some time to play around on a sim... just use it as a starting point then perhaps get a free trial/use of a sim at a broker yourself
Thanks for the link mate.
What's the difference between a sim and a demo?
I am currently trading on a live mini account and I don't see the point of stepping back.
If you could, please enlighten me
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Old Nov 27, 2017, 7:36pm   #60
DT
Joined Sep 2003
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Originally Posted by Nowler View Post
What's the difference between a sim and a demo?
nothing just different words for the same thing

Quote:
I am currently trading on a live mini account and I don't see the point of stepping back.
If you could, please enlighten me
You said you wanted the training a prop firm would offer - I'd say that these arcades/prop firms generally don't offer a great deal in the way of training and that what they do offer in the most part you could probably get relatively cheaply from a program such as that offered by the firm I linked to (while I'll emphasise again that I'd be skeptical about the firm overall I do think that if you're starting from basically almost 0 experience then perhaps it could be $100 well spent)

You're just taking punts with some bucket shop at the moment? No interaction with an actual exchange - you don't get to see any liquidity/the order book is just a two way quote provided by the bucket shop you have an account with?

That sort of thing doesn't lend itself very well to the sort of intraday trading these firms/arcades do.

I'll also need to add in again that this sort of intraday trading isn't very likely to work out for you, you're very likely to not be able to make money from this...
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