I think T2W should be doing more for members?

Trade2Win.com is a venue ... not a club.

And it could even be described as a Social Networking Centre for a Special Interest Group.

And T2W has visibly grown exponentially since I joined a few years back, ostensibly because of the growth of owning and trading equities as a popular investment vehicle amongst the general public.

And that growth has continued more recently through the introduction Retail Forex to the same wanna-be-do-it-yourself-investors and players. In fact, Trade2Win has received the benefit of having wisely hitched itself to two speeding locomotives going in the same direction ... the Internet and the Financial Trading Industry.

Wish I had done that ...

But to say that T2W has blown away any expectations Sharky and crew had at the inception, would be understating history ... I think this forum is deservedly exceptional - outstanding to the extent that it is the one that has attracted me away from the half-dozen or more that I previously frequented (I have always used the same user ID).

But ... and here is the squeeze ... while T2W management may think they have been doing enough to serve membership - by providing moderation (mandatory) and links to Reviews (quality: fair) Brokers, Traderpedia, Articles and Journals (to pinch a few topics from the Toolbar) I contend that this administration is no longer giving back to the community in the proportion it receives from membership.

I will be the first to acknowledge that initially anyb start-up will have difficulties and struggles - and while I was not here then, I expect T2W really did it tough in those early very competitive years of fighting for market share and listing on search engines yada yada.

But don't you think the time for compensation for that has long passed? Yes - I am the first to support any enterprise, and it is great to see a membership of 200,000-plus not counting banned or disaffected members of past eras.

My point is that now I think it is high time the Forum admin sought to develop its brand ... to go to the next level. I mentioned this in a PM to one of the mods ... this is the substance of it: (note ... I have cut/edited superfluous wording)

Whole forums exist to test systems, and these forums then provide affiliate links to the system seller, and take their cut. There is NO REASON T2W can not also have a formal system testing laboratory, and then provide links to allow members to purchase the system through T2W - thus also helping the T2W bottom line.

Further, why not sell the good systems at a discount - charge the "going price" but offer "credits" to members who purchase through T2W and then use those credits to purchase things through T2W bookshops or something ...

... it is time to trim the BS a bit. T2W used to be equities-focused, and is now currency-focused. But are traders more profitable?

Not from where I sit in the peanut gallery. And it is sad that T2W is a place where heaps of stuff is discussed, but nothing really inflames the imagination of members, to the extent that they have real HOPE of becoming better traders and investors, and to the extent that people wake up and the first thing they want to do is log on to see what the next good thing is on T2W.

But it is high time the razor was taken to the long hair ... we need a new approach that will cut to the reality that not only is trading NOT for everyone, but it is truly dangerous for inexperienced people to engage in derivative and leveraged instrument trading ...

We can send them to babypips.com, or we can keep them and nurture them here.

Click to expand...

Is it just me ... or do others agree T2W should be growing its brand more, through offering more to members?

It is definitely an interesting idea that I am sure a lot of people would 'buy-in' to.

Especially if had major influences from the traders who post and we listen to.

I've always taken the view that as long as T2W is, to me, free at the point of entry, then I respect the management's choice of direction. No particularls skin off my nose if I disagree with the content in quality, quantity or direction, as I haven't paid to access it. Net/net over the years I would say I have probably 'broken even' here in value terms (not that one can really put a number on that kind of thing). I hope I've posted up stuff of value on occasion, helping people sitting on the retail side of the fence to understand a little more of what happens inside these (nowadays somewhat sullied) ivory towers.

In return I have learned a few bits and pieces myself along the way. Not, I have to admit, always a great deal, but then again I am in a position here that, while by no means unique, does nevertheless represent a fairly small part of the spectrum of knowledge and experience to be found on such forums. But hey, it's free right? So if I even learned one thing of value I could take back to my desk on the floor here it would have been worth it. And I learned more than one thing of use. Plus I have a very small handful of professional relationships that have transcended the interwebnet and have actually continued in 'real life' They know who they are

So while I see what you're saying, for me, the bottom line is it's free. Actually to be honest, not only is it free, but this is Sharky's business. He makes money off this, and as such, nowadays is bound to be driven by a slightly different imperative than was the case when I joined, 6+ years ago. However, in the interests of this remaining a relevant and popular place for people engaged in speculation to congregate, I have no doubt that reasonable constructive criticism will be read by the management. It's in their direct interests after all, even if the site is pure click revenue based they still want to maximise the clicks.

Just my $0.02

GJ

Look ... unfortunately I am quite long winded, and bury the meat with the offal, so I have split what I want to say into two posts.

Recently I commenced a new thread to discuss a Commercial trading system. On that thread, I went off-topic a tad, and mentioned a bit of the above stuff in there.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/commercial-systems/100978-andrew-searles-lindencourt-method-2.html

In that thread, at posts #12 and #16, Timsk gave good feedback, and suggested this thread be commenced to discuss some options:

timsk said:

Hi Ivan,
I can imagine a lot of members reading this and thinking what a great idea - why doesn't T2W have its very own system? Unfortunately, it simply wouldn't work and would lead to all manner of arguments for all sorts of reasons. Here's the first three that spring to mind . . .
1. T2W members post their own methodologies every day, how do we go about selecting just one worthy of being called 'The T2W System'? For every member that thinks it's brilliant, five others will think it's pants. Of course, we could start from scratch, but how would we decide who creates the system and how do we decide whether or not it's any good and worthy of it's lofty title?
2. It wouldn't serve any useful purpose. If there was such a system, it would imply that it was better, more profitable and / or simpler to implement than most of the others on the site - and beyond. There's no way anyone could ever make such a claim about any methodology. Doing so would not be helpful to members and the site would be in breach of its own objectives.
3. One man's meat is another man's poison, what works for me may not work for you - and visa versa. As Lord Flasheart correctly points out in his last post, "Theres lots of stuff that works, its making your head work that matters." Inevitably, lots of people would try the system, have some losing trades - maybe lots of losing trades - and conclude that it doesn't work. Next thing you know, the T2W legal team have a compensation claim on their hands. Nightmare!
I won't go on as this is a bit of a red herring and not the subject of your thread, but I felt a reply was warranted as you've emphasized the point in your OP. If you (or anyone else) wishes to pursue the subject, you could ask the Mods to start a new thread.
Cheers,
Tim.

Click to expand...

Tim said plainly : "Unfortunately, it simply wouldn't work and would lead to all manner of arguments for all sorts of reasons. Here's the first three that spring to mind . . ."

Do you agree?

I don't agree at all.

If T2W organised a few thinkers and volunteer successful traders, then a workshop could be convened to initiate the ideas need to develop a "branded" system of trading specific or collective instruments.

Such system would need forward testing in a beta format, before being offered to members on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. Many well-known rival forums have "Stickies" to highlight their best contributed systems. Along with that goes standard disclaimers, and specific warnings. Traders could even be confronted with an in-your-face page on the way to the download centre, specifically requiring them to acknowledge that they have read and agree with the risks and that the product will be operated on a discretionary basis, out side of the control of management blah blah ...

It is not my intention to get into this area here, except to say that a company much larger than T2W - Microsoft corp - requires the "I agree" button to be pressed before clients are able to access or download any of their material or software.

What's the rub here? Nothing different at all imv.

In Tim's post, he said: "How do we go about selecting just one worthy of being called 'The T2W System?"

We don't ... we make our T2W System as a branded entity.

Tim: "It wouldn't serve any useful purpose. If there was such a system, it would imply that it was better, more profitable and / or simpler to implement than most of the others on the site - and beyond."

No again ... there is nothing to compare with any other system ... just that it has been beta tested and found to be profitable.

Tim: "Inevitably, lots of people would try the system, have some losing trades - maybe lots of losing trades - and conclude that it doesn't work. Next thing you know, the T2W legal team have a compensation claim on their hands. Nightmare!"

That may be true ... but that is already happening ... people follow my thread, or Lord Flasheart's thread, and neither of us is likely to be sued, are we? Granted we are not a corporation or company, but then we are probably covered by T2W's disclaimer policy. Is T2W also not covered by any disclaimer policy?

Any and all systems are bought on the understanding of "refund-or-no-refund" policy.

If the think-tank did its work well, then word-of-mouth would take care of the publicity and the system would stand/fall on its merits. There are ways around piracy issues, but of course the clever and devious will always circumvent where possible.

There is more to come ... such as why don't we have a "School-to-Win" section, where newbies and experienced alike can learn from "Sticky" posts/threads, and come out with some sort of certificate of competency?

Have to move over atm for personal priorities, but more to come.

Best wishes

Ivan

Hi Ivan,
Thanks for starting the thread!
T2W is evolving all the time and it needs fresh ideas to keep it moving forward and to prevent it from stagnating. Needless to say, but I'll say it anyway, well thought out ideas that are in the best interests of the site and its members will be considered and, where feasible, implemented. Additionally, constructive criticism of the site as it stands, plus any practical steps that can be taken to improve it are not just welcome - but actively encouraged.

Tim.

GammaJammer said:

.......
So while I see what you're saying, for me, the bottom line is it's free. Actually to be honest, not only is it free, but this is Sharky's business. He makes money off this, and as such, nowadays is bound to be driven by a slightly different imperative than was the case when I joined, 6+ years ago.
........
GJ

Click to expand...

I agree with that. T2W is an interesting debating house and amongst the chaff there is some very worthwhile stuff. However, to make any kind of charges I think will kill it-I know we have this Internet philosophy where nobody thinks they should pay for anything but that's where we are even if we should all realise that somebody, somewhere has to pay for it. Just look at what's happened with the London Times now that the Internet website can only be accessed through a pay wall-visitors have dropped dramatically and no doubt Rupert Murdoch is watching developments carefully.

I would have thought that T2W might want to explore the possibility of doing deals with suppliers so as to give members some kind of discount-just as many newspapers do (even though most of what they sell is crap). I don't think T2W should be overly worried about being controversial-that's what stimulates debate, the important thing is to keep it on a sensible level and not allow it to degenerate into slanging matches.

I like the idea of T2W "branded" systems and methodologies-so long as it's made clear nothing is guaranteed and all the usual disclaimers apply, I think it could be very interesting. Now that e-books are properly established what about some decent deals for downloading quality material (trading) that you can't find for free on the web? Wouldn't financial publishers (and I know that publishers are, in the main, conservative stick in the muds who put their own interests above their readers')but with T2W's "clientele" of 200,000 there has to be a business proposition there somewhere. Come to think of it,what about homegrown e-book downloadable versions (suitably edited of course)of some of the more worthwhile threads on T2W?

I sense that Timsk is treading very carefully in this matter-and quite rightly so. But presumably strategic direction comes from Mr. Sharky and no doubt he's considering all of this very carefully. My point is that organisations and companies that stagnate, often subsequently enter decline-which is not in anybody's interests.

So go to it Mr. Sharky-give us all a surprise

GammaJammer said:

So while I see what you're saying, for me, the bottom line is it's free. Actually to be honest, not only is it free, but this is Sharky's business. He makes money off this, and as such, nowadays is bound to be driven by a slightly different imperative than was the case when I joined, 6+ years ago. However, in the interests of this remaining a relevant and popular place for people engaged in speculation to congregate, I have no doubt that reasonable constructive criticism will be read by the management. It's in their direct interests after all, even if the site is pure click revenue based they still want to maximise the clicks.

Just my $0.02

GJ

Click to expand...

Excellent contribution GammaJammer - all of which I understand, and most of which I agree is true.

However, I am one who tries to go a bit deeper than club membership - free or not.

I have emotional capital invested in this forum, as do you possibly, purely through the sheer number of your informative and teaching kind of postings. There is a tremendous amount of time involved in your posts, and quite a lot of thought and reflection has clearly gone into those.

So in that sense, as willing contributors, we are participating in growing Sharky's business; but in that process we are investing something of ourselves.

The dividend?

For some it is a little boost to the ego ... I like seeing my posts appear. I like being taken seriously, and I like having my ideas make sense to others - whether I know those folks or not. That's the Web for you.

For others, it will be the altruistic adventure of sharing what has meant something, and the hope that the same insight will benefit fellow pilgrims.

Others will be here to learn, and are extremely grateful for the very presence of a free forum from which to discover and learn the wiles of the market, and the means of safe play.

Others again, are here purely for the school-boy mischief they can cause. They get off by misleading others and beguiling the unwary. And we all know the forum flames and trolls ... and the odd bully.

Some join, just to avoid the annoying screen that reminds them that they have limited privileges, and that they must register in order to derive full benefit. These folk may never post much ... if at all.

My main point is that no one knows what the opposition is planning, and that all of this may be wiped out en totale tomorrow.

The Fable of the Grasshopper and the Ant teaches that we need to store up capital for the coming famine, as cycles fulfill their destiny. Why not be like the ant, and have insurance against the Black Swan events lurking out there?

Ants and Grasshoppers aside ... I truly feel an opportunity is going begging here.

Is T2W going to wait until another (rival) forum leads the way with this?

I have quite a bit of commitment to this place, and I think, although it is someone else's business, it is probably not my place to be interested in making it superior to all opposition.

But I am.

Sharky enjoys a great membership numerically ... unsure if his advertisers are interested in clicks-per-month data - but what if that suddenly began to decline because sliced bread is being sold cheaply over at xyz.com?

Has T2W reached "peak-membership"

Is there nothing more to be gained through attracting more members?
Do we have all the members on the planet already?
Are the numbers enough to attract all the advertising sponsorship T2W can handle already, so that more member participation may not necessarily equate to greater site revenue?

Those things are none of my business, and Sharky probably cares less - he's probably off in the Caribbean kicking back ... not!

But I hope I make my point. I WANT this forum to survive and thrive.

One of the most striking features of Trade2Win.com is the uncanny expectation new thread creators have, that the knockers will descend en masse ... and so it is.

Why is that?

Why is it that every new idea is met with a plethora of comments like: "That's been tried before ... it doesn't work, and it won't work."

or

"This is just the xyz method reworked with the thingamy added, and a different whatsit applied to the moving mtf MACD. It's a lemon."

I don't want this ... especially from senior members and mods.

I would much rather hear: "We had something similar a while back, but it could not be made to work at the time. Is your take on it coming from a different angle? Would you like assistance to see what we can do to get it to fly?"

At the moment I am trying to get an idea to "fly".

Any passengers in the waiting queue?

0007 said:

However, to make any kind of charges I think will kill it-I know we have this Internet philosophy where nobody thinks they should pay for anything but that's where we are even if we should all realise that somebody, somewhere has to pay for it.

Click to expand...

Don't fully agree 0007, because people will always be willing to pay where they see value.
And what you pay for, you should value anyway.

I don't think that T2W should be exempted/excluded from an opportunity to offer something that costs. They already have a merchandising section, and they offer discounts occasionally on Trading Platform software and so on.

Offering an eBook with their own beta-tested proprietary indicators would be a natural way to move forward into "branding". It would not be long before members would be waiting for the next T2W product ... because they would be assured of the quality and the integrity of the offer.

0007 said:

I like the idea of T2W "branded" systems and methodologies-so long as it's made clear nothing is guaranteed and all the usual disclaimers apply, I think it could be very interesting. Now that e-books are properly established what about some decent deals for downloading quality material (trading) that you can't find for free on the web? Wouldn't financial publishers (and I know that publishers are, in the main, conservative stick in the muds who put their own interests above their readers')but with T2W's "clientele" of 200,000 there has to be a business proposition there somewhere. Come to think of it,what about homegrown e-book downloadable versions (suitably edited of course)of some of the more worthwhile threads on T2W?

Click to expand...

Spot on imho. Great idea 0007

0007 said:

I sense that Timsk is treading very carefully in this matter-and quite rightly so. But presumably strategic direction comes from Mr. Sharky and no doubt he's considering all of this very carefully. My point is that organisations and companies that stagnate, often subsequently enter decline-which is not in anybody's interests.

So go to it Mr. Sharky-give us all a surprise

Click to expand...

Thank you 0007 - very good ideas, and I think you "get" the point of my long-winded posts.

It's time to move forward ... and break some new ground - : Fortune favors the brave!

0007 said:

...to make any kind of charges I think will kill it...

Click to expand...

Yes, it will.

Re purchase of trading systems - isn't there a well established difficulty with this? If Bill invents a trading system that works, he surely has no interest in publicising it, unless (i) the sale price exceeds his expectation from using it, or (ii) that system requires others to act in concert. And if the latter, then the participants are in a race amongst themselves.

Unless I'm wrong, institutions do not sell winning formulas.

Ingot - I'm not trying to squash your initiative - this is just my feedback on a couple of things that stand out.

Dommo said:

Re purchase of trading systems - isn't there a well established difficulty with this? If Bill invents a trading system that works, he surely has no interest in publicising it, unless (i) the sale price exceeds his expectation from using it, or (ii) that system requires others to act in concert. And if the latter, then the participants are in a race amongst themselves.

Unless I'm wrong, institutions do not sell winning formulas.

Click to expand...

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/sale/



dd

dick_dastardly said:

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/sale/



dd

Click to expand...

All right, I'll clarify - by "institutions" I mean institutions that do a lot of trading for their own account. Aside from that, I agree that there is no end of sellers of "trading systems", but I'm not a buyer.

Dommo said:

All right, I'll clarify - by "institutions" I mean institutions that do a lot of trading for their own account. Aside from that, I agree that there is no end of sellers of "trading systems", but I'm not a buyer.

Click to expand...

I guess the point I was trying to make was that anything that appears in http://www.trade2win.com/boards/sale/ must have been bought, tried, tested and rejected by the person now selling it, if you catch my drift?

I mean, not exactly a recommendation is it?


dd

Dommo said:

Yes, it will.

Re purchase of trading systems - isn't there a well established difficulty with this? If Bill invents a trading system that works, he surely has no interest in publicising it, unless (i) the sale price exceeds his expectation from using it, or (ii) that system requires others to act in concert. And if the latter, then the participants are in a race amongst themselves.

Unless I'm wrong, institutions do not sell winning formulas.

Ingot - I'm not trying to squash your initiative - this is just my feedback on a couple of things that stand out.

Click to expand...

No probs Domm - very glad of the feedback.

Some members may feel this way ...

But honestly, how many people do you know that are using the same method they used 3 ... 6 months ago?

Some don't even use them for 3 weeks!
And I have done the same with a couple I bought ... FPM ... ProFx ...

My point is that serious traders already have their methods fairly well tweaked.
But there are heaps of people who join forums like this to get the inside oil, only to find that they are the ones who get "oiled".

Trade2Win could prevent this to some extent (well it's drawing a long bow I agree) by having a "Certified" and "Peer-Reviewed Method", that could be as simple, as basic, and as good as they get, when compared with all the re-worked systems that have been marketed to the unsuspecting. And newbies could get this with the knowledge that the system has been beta-tested with published results on a review thread.

In that sense, the forum could be said to be backing certain aspects of the system - past results are not indicative of future performance etc etc and issuing certain disclaimers. Regardless of disclaimers, people will still put their necks across the altar in hope, only to become the next bleeding sacrificial lamb.

I don't think it is a question of a system going into over-use and becoming ineffective. Look at the other 2 large rival forums that deal with FX. There are HEAPS of systems there, and all of them have been brushed off to a degree. The punters are just hungry for action ... they cry: "Next!"

There is no "winning formula" as such... there are setups, and higher probability setups, and then there is the 6-inch test ... the test of what goes on in the 6 inches between the ears of the operator. My vision for a method for newbies, is one that gives high probability of a nice pip move, but which also has built-in a trade management and money management plan.

The .pdf (eBook) should also contain many examples of qualifying and non-qualifying setups. It should foster an attitude of never attempting to win the grand-stand, but of bringing home the grand-stand a brick at a time, until you have enough to build your own. What I believe is the essence of a good method, is its ability to perform consistently, and unambiguously. ie, with limited (but some) discretion.

Anyway - I am getting carried away ... this stuff should be elicited by a think-tank ... my speculation here is not going to do much.

Right now there are 757 members and guests viewing this forum.

How many systems would the firm need to move, to make the exercise worthwhile?
And how much would need to be charged for it, to make it respected?

There is no obligation for anyone to buy anything ... but when faced with a choice of $3,997 for the U-Beaut FireworxFX system, and T2W standard work-horse for $27, backed by beta-tested results, and a track record that grows over time, which choice would the punters make?

Thanks for your contribution ... and I apologise if I appear to come on too strong with my view. Maybe I'm the one with the dreamy head.

Best wishes

Ivan

dick_dastardly said:

I guess the point I was trying to make was that anything that appears in http://www.trade2win.com/boards/sale/ must have been bought, tried, tested and rejected by the person now selling it, if you catch my drift?

I mean, not exactly a recommendation is it?


dd

Click to expand...

Ah, yes, DD, your first comment was a little too subtle for me! I couldn't agree more.

Best of luck, Ivan

dick_dastardly said:

I guess the point I was trying to make was that anything that appears in http://www.trade2win.com/boards/sale/ must have been bought, tried, tested and rejected by the person now selling it, if you catch my drift?

I mean, not exactly a recommendation is it?


dd

Click to expand...

Perhaps, DD ... but sometimes people simply tire of something because they have evolved a better tweak.

Or found a better approach ... or simply can't make it work for them.

These would be legit reasons for selling.

And once you have software on your 'puter, or know how to construct the indies yourself, then that could also be a reason for selling.

Point is, if a system is forward-tested after review, and found to be a good "trainer" for newbies, or simply a darn good approach, then there is no reason not to share it and profit from it.

All sales are not necessarily designed to rip people off.
And all system sellers are not necessarily making more from their sales than from their trading, or motivated by greed. I have bought very good systems for very reasonable prices, and I have bought very good systems for upper-limit prices (imv).

I can freely inform you that if I had a system that is making good pips for me, I would have no hesitation in bundling it up and flogging it for ten bucks (arbitrary figure) on my blog. But I will also tell you, I would need to be satisfied of its verity first ... I would hope that I am a cut above the sales-people I like to chastise.

I hope we can keep the feedback going here - I'm not going to comment any more for a few days - I can see that my continued responses may not be too encouraging for others to throw in their 2¢ worth.

But I do hope that there is a new core of thought developing. The suggestions so far point to that, and I thank you for your input and insights.

Dommo said:

Yes, it will.

Re purchase of trading systems - isn't there a well established difficulty with this? If Bill invents a trading system that works, he surely has no interest in publicising it, unless (i) the sale price exceeds his expectation from using it, or (ii) that system requires others to act in concert. And if the latter, then the participants are in a race amongst themselves.

Unless I'm wrong, institutions do not sell winning formulas.

Ingot - I'm not trying to squash your initiative - this is just my feedback on a couple of things that stand out.

Click to expand...

Or the system is crap but it doesn't matter to the originator because the idea is to sell dreams of effortless earnings to the intellectually crippled:whistling

Ingot54 said:

I can freely inform you that if I had a system that is making good pips for me, I would have no hesitation in bundling it up and flogging it for ten bucks (arbitrary figure) on my blog.

Click to expand...

Ivan - that's a very altruistic attitude (and I genuinely mean that). My difficulty is that unless the system is broadly parameterised, finite liquidity will tend to limit its scalability. Once the system is out there, you would surely find it more difficult to enter and exit as the system dictates. Trading is hard enough - if you have an edge, just use it. But the very act of distribution will make it worthless. I wouldn't buy any trading system. If it has a track record and is specific enough to appear useful, someone is already caning it by the time it gets to me.

Dommo said:

Ivan - that's a very altruistic attitude (and I genuinely mean that). My difficulty is that unless the system is broadly parameterised, finite liquidity will tend to limit its scalability. Once the system is out there, you would surely find it more difficult to enter and exit as the system dictates. Trading is hard enough - if you have an edge, just use it. But the very act of distribution will make it worthless. I wouldn't buy any trading system. If it has a track record and is specific enough to appear useful, someone is already caning it by the time it gets to me.

Click to expand...

That depends on the liquidity of the instrument.
Give a "system" to 100 people and only a handful will use it long term in the right way in any case.
It also is dependent on the "system" itself in so far as any discretionary element will grossly distort the individual's results.
t2w would be on a hiding to nothing by recommending anything, imho.
Richard

4dLulz said:

The standards at T2W have been in decline for years, do you really want to put the final nail in the coffin ?

Click to expand...

Hmmmm....For a member with only a handful of posts you seem to have quite a bit of insight into the history of the site.

Ingot54,
I like overall idea of what you are presenting...but IMHO, it's difficult to show integrity when you have clowns like this posting freely on many threads, and worse starting his own threads nearly everyday.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/general-trading-chat/101080-full-time-part-time.html

Some housecleaning would be in order. I still think this is a great site which is why I am offering my opinions.

Peter