Stop out - but not on chart?

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juss67

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Hi guys, ‘Finspreads’

I got stopped out just over a week ago in ‘silver‘ at 1695.0 on the 18th Feb
Now looking back at their java charts - just to see where things are, silver never went below 1707.2 !!!
Silver only has a spread of 6 (quoted) per 0.5 what can be done?

I’m pretty new to sb and T2w, so thanks for any suggestions.

Kind regards
Justin.
 
possibly their charts are based off the futures market, not their market where they trade/make prices where customer orders are.
 
charliechan said:
possibly their charts are based off the futures market, not their market where they trade/make prices where customer orders are.
Click to expand...

Thanks Charlie,
that does make sense, as the trade was a future for Silver/Feb and has now come to an end.
Shame I got stopped out though, seen the price of silver today!

kind regards
Justin.
 
yes it is a shame.

it will also probably continue until you trade where you have transparency and no sole counterparty eg the regulated listed markets.
 
The only suggestion I would make, (which I'm sure you wont like but I've heard it all before), is stop trading until you know at least the basics of trading.

Your post identifies that your not even aware of the contract expiry date of the market you are trading, let alone the platform you are using.

This would be the equivalent of a restaurant owner not knowing that his food has gone out of date then complaining to the food company suppliers when customers get ill.

Point 2 is, if theres ever any discrepancy whatsoever, then your first port of call should be immediately to the company you trade with. Not a week later on a chat forum, this would be too late and you'll find you get unhelpful posts like mine.

I know this post will help you if you take it in.(I'm sure you wont)


juss67 said:
Hi guys, ‘Finspreads’

I got stopped out just over a week ago in ‘silver‘ at 1695.0 on the 18th Feb
Now looking back at their java charts - just to see where things are, silver never went below 1707.2 !!!
Silver only has a spread of 6 (quoted) per 0.5 what can be done?

I’m pretty new to sb and T2w, so thanks for any suggestions.

Kind regards
Justin.
Click to expand...
 
Lee Shepherd said:
The only suggestion I would make, (which I'm sure you wont like but I've heard it all before), is stop trading until you know at least the basics of trading.

Your post identifies that your not even aware of the contract expiry date of the market you are trading, let alone the platform you are using.

This would be the equivalent of a restaurant owner not knowing that his food has gone out of date then complaining to the food company suppliers when customers get ill.

Point 2 is, if theres ever any discrepancy whatsoever, then your first port of call should be immediately to the company you trade with. Not a week later on a chat forum, this would be too late and you'll find you get unhelpful posts like mine.

I know this post will help you if you take it in.(I'm sure you wont)
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply Lee.

Yes strangely enough, I have stopped trading!
Yes I am still learning the basics.
Yes I was aware of the three-month contract, the 18th seemed like a good entry but I got stopped out.

The one thing that puzzled me when I decided today, to look back at the chart, was how it had change from the 18th Feb to now
The price had dipped below my stop loss on the 18th but no longer shows on today’s chart.

That is why I have not complained to Finspreads, I have only just found out. Just thought I might gain some useful knowledge first, off this forum.
The Chap called Charlie seems to have explained the anomaly.

Again thanks for even replying Lee and any other advise? Let me have it!

Kind regards
Justin.
 
You surprised me with your response, most people would have got a sh1tty on.

Paper trade, this is just as powerful and although you cannot earn any money you cannot lose any, but either way you will learn. As with any business before putting money into it you have to have some kind of business plan, projections ect.

This will all come off your money management strategy and when you have shown to yourself that you can take a reasonable amount of points/pips off the markets over a set period of time, then you can ask the yourself, how much money can I get up together to throw at this successful venture.

In terms of sense, think of it if you had to get a business loan, you have to take the money out of your bank right?, but what if it was another bank, what would the manager/lender ask you? could you answer all his/her questions satisfactorily?

On your replies, would they lend you the money?
 
charliechan said:
possibly their charts are based off the futures market, not their market where they trade/make prices where customer orders are.
Click to expand...

This is not always the case. S/B normally have a disclaimer on their charts stating that they are only indicative of price or words to that effect. When I 1st started trading with S/B I got stopped out on a Futures Trade and I was looking at the correct chart. When I called to find out what was going on the reply I got was that the price did touch my stop price and they can send a copy of the official price and times that they get from Bloomberg which is their data provider. It seems that the chart data sampling time must be too slow to record rapid price spikes.
 
With charts being too slow:

This is very possible and does occur from time to time but the majority of cases are that peoples computers are too slow. Check the memory settings then check how much it takes just to have one graph running let alone the platform as well.

With regards to fast action, spikes ect. The platfrom and graphs are both streaming prices so a huge amount of data is flowing back and fourth. The more the market moves, the more the prices fluctuate, the harder your computer and internet line has to work.

Therefore, PC's can run perfectely constantely, then when the markets get going and people wish to close out trades, suddenly find it difficult not only due to finding fills but also on slow running platform due to low memory or speed. Internet lines, wireless can also be a benefactor of this.

Solution: Up to date Pc(make sure its up to date with speed not graphics cards) this is business not a game we're playing.

Fast internet connection and secure, cable connection is far more secure than wireless(obviously as cannot be hacked/interfered with airways) and is more stable.

Use multiple PC's, screens ect for graphs. Leave the platform for trading only. It's your money on the line. You can pick up PC's for a few hundred quid for this purpose.
Invest in you and your business and the money will flow.


new_trader said:
This is not always the case. S/B normally have a disclaimer on their charts stating that they are only indicative of price or words to that effect. When I 1st started trading with S/B I got stopped out on a Futures Trade and I was looking at the correct chart. When I called to find out what was going on the reply I got was that the price did touch my stop price and they can send a copy of the official price and times that they get from Bloomberg which is their data provider. It seems that the chart data sampling time must be too slow to record rapid price spikes.
Click to expand...
 
Lee Shepherd said:
With charts being too slow:

This is very possible and does occur from time to time but the majority of cases are that peoples computers are too slow. Check the memory settings then check how much it takes just to have one graph running let alone the platform as well.

With regards to fast action, spikes ect. The platfrom and graphs are both streaming prices so a huge amount of data is flowing back and fourth. The more the market moves, the more the prices fluctuate, the harder your computer and internet line has to work.

Therefore, PC's can run perfectely constantely, then when the markets get going and people wish to close out trades, suddenly find it difficult not only due to finding fills but also on slow running platform due to low memory or speed. Internet lines, wireless can also be a benefactor of this.

Solution: Up to date Pc(make sure its up to date with speed not graphics cards) this is business not a game we're playing.

Fast internet connection and secure, cable connection is far more secure than wireless(obviously as cannot be hacked/interfered with airways) and is more stable.

Use multiple PC's, screens ect for graphs. Leave the platform for trading only. It's your money on the line. You can pick up PC's for a few hundred quid for this purpose.
Invest in you and your business and the money will flow.
Click to expand...


Actually, you would be surprised to find out how little bandwidth market data needs. Streaming a video on youtube probably uses more. I have a USB modem for mobile broadband and it shows the data rate for my connection. If I only stream prices it uses only about 1-3Kbit/s (Kilobits/second). When I open DOM which obviously requires more data it increases to around 5-7Kb/s. That is insignificant when you consider the average broadband connection is at least 4Mbit/s ...ie/almost 1000 times faster than what's needed. I'm sure you can find out the bandwidth use by going into control panel and looking at the network connection. I also have historical data and when I create an ASCII file for a trading day of the ES contract, the average file size is around 3Mbytes. Considering that this is over 6.5 hours of data you can do the simple arithmetic calculation and see that it is only around 1-2Kbit/sec.

Drawing price accurate charts has little to do with computer processing power as far as I understand because the data is provided by the server of your broker. A slow computer may take longer to initially open a chart, but once it is running the prices shown on it will be exactly the same as on a fast computer.

I think the main problem with S/B companies is that they most probably time sample to obtain their chart data rather than use actual trades. I can't prove this mind you, but my observations fit the theory. I have a direct access account and a spread betting a/c. When I open charts on both and place them side by side the S/B chart lags as far as up/down price movements are concerned. Try it yourself, especially around opening and closing times.
 
Ok, heres a thought..or experiment.

See whilst platform is running in normal times how many charts you can open before it crashes/freezes or starts running slow and see how long you are able to trade.

Also listen to the little fan inside your computer working overtime...:LOL:



new_trader said:
Actually, you would be surprised to find out how little bandwidth market data needs. Streaming a video on youtube probably uses more. I have a USB modem for mobile broadband and it shows the data rate for my connection. If I only stream prices it uses only about 1-3Kbit/s (Kilobits/second). When I open DOM which obviously requires more data it increases to around 5-7Kb/s. That is insignificant when you consider the average broadband connection is at least 4Mbit/s ...ie/almost 1000 times faster than what's needed. I'm sure you can find out the bandwidth use by going into control panel and looking at the network connection. I also have historical data and when I create an ASCII file for a trading day of the ES contract, the average file size is around 3Mbytes. Considering that this is over 6.5 hours of data you can do the simple arithmetic calculation and see that it is only around 1-2Kbit/sec.

Drawing price accurate charts has little to do with computer processing power as far as I understand because the data is provided by the server of your broker. A slow computer may take longer to initially open a chart, but once it is running the prices shown on it will be exactly the same as on a fast computer.

I think the main problem with S/B companies is that they most probably time sample to obtain their chart data rather than use actual trades. I can't prove this mind you, but my observations fit the theory. I have a direct access account and a spread betting a/c. When I open charts on both and place them side by side the S/B chart lags as far as up/down price movements are concerned. Try it yourself, especially around opening and closing times.
Click to expand...
 
Lee Shepherd said:
Ok, heres a thought..or experiment.

See whilst platform is running in normal times how many charts you can open before it crashes/freezes or starts running slow and see how long you are able to trade.

Also listen to the little fan inside your computer working overtime...:LOL:
Click to expand...

What has that got to do with accurate prices on charts or data transfer rate? Zip, zilch, zero! I'm giving you facts not an opinion. Market data requires low bandwidth. Can you can provide facts and figures to dispute this?

Anyway, think about this: Many people have a Sat Nav in their car which have lots of pretty coloured maps, places of interest, voice guidance etc...etc...etc. Do you think all this information is coming from the satellites? Well the answer is no. The American defence department didn't design GPS so that Mrs Smith, who can't read a map, wouldn't get lost on her way to the bingo hall.
 
You've obviously missed my point, let me explain.

The slower the PC the slower you'll recieve information.

The more graphs you have open the slower it will run..

Have you tried the experiment I explained above.

The more graphs you have open, the slower the computer, the slower you recieve prices and this equals inaccurate information at time of trade..

new_trader said:
What has that got to do with accurate prices on charts or data transfer rate? Zip, zilch, zero! I'm giving you facts not an opinion. Market data requires low bandwidth. Can you can provide facts and figures to dispute this?

Anyway, think about this: Many people have a Sat Nav in their car which have lots of pretty coloured maps, places of interest, voice guidance etc...etc...etc. Do you think all this information is coming from the satellites? Well the answer is no. The American defence department didn't design GPS so that Mrs Smith, who can't read a map, wouldn't get lost on her way to the bingo hall.
Click to expand...
 
Lee Shepherd said:
You've obviously missed my point, let me explain.

The slower the PC the slower you'll recieve information.

The more graphs you have open the slower it will run..

Have you tried the experiment I explained above.

The more graphs you have open, the slower the computer, the slower you recieve prices and this equals inaccurate information at time of trade..
Click to expand...

Let's go back to the beginning, OK? You've obviously lost your way.

1) The OP said he got stopped out at a price that did not show on his chart. Like the title of his thread says: "Stop out - but not on chart?"
2) I explained how an instrument CAN hit a price even though the chart does not show it.
3) You explained it has everything to do with Internet and Computer speed.
4) I said that's a load of BS, basically. Which it is.

Now, let me explain it again so that this time you might understand. How many people right now around the world are trading the DOW futures contract? Are they all using EXACTLY the same type of computer? Unlikely! Are they all using EXACTLY the same ISP? Unlikely! Are they all using EXACTLY the same type of trading application? Unlikely! Are they all using EXACTLY the same broker? Unlikely! Are all the computers running EXACTLY the same processes, demanding EXACTLY the same amount of CPU power to process the data? Unlikely!

Now, do you honestly believe in these unlikely circumstances that all of these traders around the world are seeing different prices on their charts?

Now, in the immortal words of HAL9000: “This conversation can serve no purpose anymore, goodbye.”
 
Wow, I'd forgotten what being patronised was like till now:LOL:

You'd make a good preacher teacher.:smart:
Thanks for teaching a boy of my age(5) a thing or two..:whistling

new_trader said:
Let's go back to the beginning, OK? You've obviously lost your way.

1) The OP said he got stopped out at a price that did not show on his chart. Like the title of his thread says: "Stop out - but not on chart?"
2) I explained how an instrument CAN hit a price even though the chart does not show it.
3) You explained it has everything to do with Internet and Computer speed.
4) I said that's a load of BS, basically. Which it is.

Now, let me explain it again so that this time you might understand. How many people right now around the world are trading the DOW futures contract? Are they all using EXACTLY the same type of computer? Unlikely! Are they all using EXACTLY the same ISP? Unlikely! Are they all using EXACTLY the same type of trading application? Unlikely! Are they all using EXACTLY the same broker? Unlikely! Are all the computers running EXACTLY the same processes, demanding EXACTLY the same amount of CPU power to process the data? Unlikely!

Now, do you honestly believe in these unlikely circumstances that all of these traders around the world are seeing different prices on their charts?

Now, in the immortal words of HAL9000: “This conversation can serve no purpose anymore, goodbye.”
Click to expand...
 
Lee Shepherd said:
Wow, I'd forgotten what being patronised was like till now:LOL:

You'd make a good preacher teacher.:smart:
Thanks for teaching a boy of my age(5) a thing or two..:whistling
Click to expand...

I always did say that one can never tell with whom one is conversing. I bet we would get some surprises, if we only knew!
 
Splitlink said:
I always did say that one can never tell with whom one is conversing. I bet we would get some surprises, if we only knew!
Click to expand...

Ah, yes Split, remember Connie :LOL: :eek: turned out to be a geezer wearing high heels & wig, actually there's a few gender confused members still at large, so be careful :eek: :LOL:

BTW I still haven't got my head round this bandwidth issue and charts/feeds etc.

Interesting debate though (y)
 
Lightning McQueen said:
Ah, yes Split, remember Connie :LOL: :eek: turned out to be a geezer wearing high heels & wig, actually there's a few gender confused members still at large, so be careful :eek: :LOL:

BTW I still haven't got my head round this bandwidth issue and charts/feeds etc.

Interesting debate though (y)
Click to expand...

What don't you understand?
 
new_trader said:
What don't you understand?
Click to expand...

The whole thing :eek: ...why wasn't the price on the chart?, why did the stop trigger where it did?, band width issues? - the price must be on a chart at some timeframe or other, maybe the mid point data on the chart doesn't show a widening of the spread - causing the stop to trigger, if the OP had been watching the quote or his profit/loss instead of the chart he may have seen it coming, I don't know.

As I say interesting debate on issues that I hadn't preveously come across, thought of or experienced, sorry to be a divvy on this one :D
 
Lightning McQueen said:
The whole thing :eek: ...why wasn't the price on the chart?, why did the stop trigger where it did?, band width issues? - the price must be on a chart at some timeframe or other, maybe the mid point data on the chart doesn't show a widening of the spread - causing the stop to trigger, if the OP had been watching the quote or his profit/loss instead of the chart he may have seen it coming, I don't know.

As I say interesting debate on issues that I hadn't preveously come across, thought of or experienced, sorry to be a divvy on this one :D
Click to expand...

I am going to the gym soon, so I will give just a brief explanation as to why it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with bandwidth issues/ data transfer rate or computer processing power.

Imagine you log into your spread bet a/c and place the following order on the MAR S&P500 futures:

BUY [email protected]/£10pp
[email protected]

Immediately after placing your order (and before it has been opened) you log out and shut down your computer. The next morning you want to check your order but your main computer fails to boot up. So, you go into PCworld and buy a brand new PC using the profits you have made from previous trades. You take it home, hook up to the Internet with your brand new computer, log into your S/B a/c and to your utter horror you see your account is down £40!! :cry:

What has happened? Your trade was opened and the market hit your stop!! :cry:

All of this happened when you were NOT connected to the internet and your computer was shutdown! :-0

Now, using your BRAND NEW superfast computer, you open a chart of the previous days trading activity to see what happened and to your surprise, the chart shows the low for the day was only 1356.25 NOT 1354.00!! :mad:

So, now, I ask you...How can this have anything to do with your Internet speed or computer speed??? :?:
 
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