Confidence

trendie · Jul 11, 2007

I cant, I cant , I cant stand losing,
I cant, I cant, I cant stand losing,
I cant stand losing pips....
(apologies to Sting)

what are workable methods of overcoming the jitteryness of trading?

I have tried:
a: treating trading as providing a sales demo, where the trading risk is likened to the petrol spent getting to the clients offices. (no sales means I just lose the petrol costs; pips won means I got the deal)

b: done back-tests as best I can, as there are still some discretionary elements, but I undermine myself by looking at different time-frames.

c: traded so that my wins are same as risk, R1, ie, treat it as a loaded coin. in the long run, I should get a 50%+ hit-rate, and thus make money. this feels good, as I can fire-and-forget, but I can miss the big moves.

d: am trying entering multiple positions on lower time-frames to aggregate entries.
think I am just trying to keep myself occupied.

things that bother me:
1: looking back at finding a better entry.
2: bailing out only for the market to go on without me.

the least stressful one is just going for a nett +20 pips per day. but does that mean I am a "real" trader, or just playing?

I wonder also if I have a gamblers mind-set, where I need instant feedback, as per roulette, whereas trading means the results may not be known until the end of the day?
this also leads onto the frustrations of being "up" midday, only for the trade to fall to break-even at end of day, leaving me with the feeling of a wasted day, with nothing to show for it.

rambling post I know, but any advice on the mind-set side?

is 20 pips nett a day a "real" trading ambition? (causes me least hassle)

fibonelli · Jul 11, 2007

Hi Trendie,

Some thoughts from a newbie.

1. What timeframe(s) are you trading from?
2. Have you backtested your trading strategy over several different timeframes? What were the results?
3. Are you psychologically comfortable about using your strategy?
4. Are you entering OCOs or "If Done" orders?
5. Do you use a trailing stop?

Good luck

Fibonelli

trendie · Jul 11, 2007

fibonelli said:
Hi Trendie,

Some thoughts from a newbie.

1. What timeframe(s) are you trading from?
2. Have you backtested your trading strategy over several different timeframes? What were the results?
3. Are you psychologically comfortable about using your strategy?
4. Are you entering OCOs or "If Done" orders?
5. Do you use a trailing stop?

Good luck

Fibonelli

1: Timeframe:mostly 1-hrs, but will look at 15-mins. this means I have about 6-7 points of analysis per day.
2: backtest: as best I can. I dont now how to calculate boll-bands using Excel, etc.
3: psychology: yes, sort of. but I spend too much time looking at other strategies. maybe if I found a way of forgetting of other peoples settings. (but they only look good in retrospect)
4: manual entry. maybe I should set Limit Orders. this takes me back to the "looking back and seeing a better entry" bit.
5: stops: no. only stop-losses. trailing-losses are a bit of problem for me! a trailing stop for me would actually be a "pullback" and a potential point of entry!!

rols · Jul 11, 2007

trendie said:
I cant, I cant , I cant stand losing,
I cant, I cant, I cant stand losing,
I cant stand losing pips....
(apologies to Sting)

what are workable methods of overcoming the jitteryness of trading?

I have tried:
a: treating trading as providing a sales demo, where the trading risk is likened to the petrol spent getting to the clients offices. (no sales means I just lose the petrol costs; pips won means I got the deal)

b: done back-tests as best I can, as there are still some discretionary elements, but I undermine myself by looking at different time-frames.

c: traded so that my wins are same as risk, R1, ie, treat it as a loaded coin. in the long run, I should get a 50%+ hit-rate, and thus make money. this feels good, as I can fire-and-forget, but I can miss the big moves.

d: am trying entering multiple positions on lower time-frames to aggregate entries.
think I am just trying to keep myself occupied.

things that bother me:
1: looking back at finding a better entry.
2: bailing out only for the market to go on without me.

the least stressful one is just going for a nett +20 pips per day. but does that mean I am a "real" trader, or just playing?

I wonder also if I have a gamblers mind-set, where I need instant feedback, as per roulette, whereas trading means the results may not be known until the end of the day?
this also leads onto the frustrations of being "up" midday, only for the trade to fall to break-even at end of day, leaving me with the feeling of a wasted day, with nothing to show for it.

rambling post I know, but any advice on the mind-set side?

is 20 pips nett a day a "real" trading ambition? (causes me least hassle)

We've all been there mate.

Identify the problem areas by keeping a record of all trades.

Why trade entered. Stop and target. And most importantly record your emotional state.
I actually used my Mac to film myself trading and talking to myself (sounds looney but gives great insight)

Also redefine your reasons for trading. It's sometimes easy to forget that bit.

damianoakley · Jul 11, 2007

trendie said:
I cant, I cant , I cant stand losing,
I cant, I cant, I cant stand losing,
I cant stand losing pips....
(apologies to Sting)

what are workable methods of overcoming the jitteryness of trading?

I have tried:
a: treating trading as providing a sales demo, where the trading risk is likened to the petrol spent getting to the clients offices. (no sales means I just lose the petrol costs; pips won means I got the deal)

b: done back-tests as best I can, as there are still some discretionary elements, but I undermine myself by looking at different time-frames.

c: traded so that my wins are same as risk, R1, ie, treat it as a loaded coin. in the long run, I should get a 50%+ hit-rate, and thus make money. this feels good, as I can fire-and-forget, but I can miss the big moves.

d: am trying entering multiple positions on lower time-frames to aggregate entries.
think I am just trying to keep myself occupied.

things that bother me:
1: looking back at finding a better entry.
2: bailing out only for the market to go on without me.

the least stressful one is just going for a nett +20 pips per day. but does that mean I am a "real" trader, or just playing?

I wonder also if I have a gamblers mind-set, where I need instant feedback, as per roulette, whereas trading means the results may not be known until the end of the day?
this also leads onto the frustrations of being "up" midday, only for the trade to fall to break-even at end of day, leaving me with the feeling of a wasted day, with nothing to show for it.

rambling post I know, but any advice on the mind-set side?

is 20 pips nett a day a "real" trading ambition? (causes me least hassle)

I would say that the longer you trade for and the longer you survive in the markets then the calmer you feel every day in your trading routine.

When you see your system growing your capital steadily over time and dealing with tough situations, then you start to develop a confidence in it.

Obviously reaching this point is the difficult part for beginners as they find it difficult to stick with a system through tough markets.

Thanks

Damian

chump · Jul 11, 2007

One thought...have you tried staying off BB's for a period which would be sufficient to test results against a prior period ?
Just occurs to me that you are at a stage where BB's and their noise might be a distraction to you doing what is important ...which is.....Just managing the trade

trendie · Jul 11, 2007

chump said:
One thought...have you tried staying off BB's for a period which would be sufficient to test results against a prior period ?
Just occurs to me that you are at a stage where BB's and their noise might be a distraction to you doing what is important ...which is.....Just managing the trade

good point.
I still read them, and have re-started posting my trades on my blog (out of the way), because I have been told that posting trades in the full glare means we become attached to them and feel under pressure to "perform".

I thought I had dealt wih that by making a point of posting my losing trades.

Perhaps I should stay away until the evenings when I have stopped trading.

chump · Jul 11, 2007

T,
I was just wondering that if you were having some confidence 'problems' it wouldn't help you at all to see other members discussing opposite positions for live trades. It's just more noise and the market surely gives you enough of that on short time frames.

JTrader · Jul 11, 2007

I am neither confident or non-confident in trading, and i think this is the right way. I am probably more non-confident/cautious than confident, as the market is COMPLETELY beyond my control. I just hope to be able to react to situations, jump on board and hitch a ride on the whales back!

For me, its not like a golf swing, or tennis serve. Thje player directly controls the success of either, and state of mind and confidence have an effect on them.

But trading, i.e. numbers flashing on a screen, are comletely random-like IMO.

Trdr · Jul 12, 2007

try this: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=97634

Paul71 · Jul 12, 2007

chump said:
One thought...have you tried staying off BB's for a period which would be sufficient to test results against a prior period ?
Just occurs to me that you are at a stage where BB's and their noise might be a distraction to you doing what is important ...which is.....Just managing the trade

I have to agree, Chump,...and also agree with your other post.

Hello, Trendie.

Trading chat forums can make trading seem almost sublime at all levels, the perfect trade, the perfect instrument, the perfect anything.

We all know this is not how it works in real life.

There is nothing i can tell you that you don't already know,...just do what you are comfortable with, this is your best route.

Good trading.

wasp · Jul 13, 2007

Confidence is a preference for the habitual voyeur of what is known as... :cheesy:

I'd echo Chump and Paul, stay off the BB's and anything on the internet and just concentrate on the trade and price action, the more time spent watching it will help 100 times more than a dozen different thoughts flying at you on the weekly FX threads.

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/blur/parklife_20021058.html :cheesy:

nkruger · Aug 26, 2007

trendie said:
is 20 pips nett a day a "real" trading ambition? (causes me least hassle)

Yes, I think 20 pips per day is a real trading ambition. Since I started trading 'Full Time' around April this year my accounts balances have increased five fold and I've taken wages out during that time. My pip target is 25 per day - although I find now, I usually beat this, unless I'm having a day off. This is not meant to be an idle boast, I'm writing about it to show what can be done. Keep at it mate !!

options · Aug 26, 2007

You can live on 20 points/pips a day!

Do this consistently day in and day out. Slowly increase stake, and you have a healthy 'wage'.

This requires more control then holding on for the big one. It also allows you more chance to have a 'life' every day. Shut off after reaching target and do whatever.

If 20 a day is still outside your reach, then cut it to 10 points pips a day. Do this consistently and you will reverse the flow of money back into your account.

You have more chance of building your account slowly but surely working this way then going for the 'big' one every day.

Do not have any regrets. If the market you are trading runs for 150 after you are out so what? You have done your job. And it is a job. Stick to your rules. No one is the best trader in the world, equally no one is the worst trader in the world.
How many times has the market reversed on anyone and turned a 'win' into a 'loss'. How often do you get 'whipped' a couple of times a day. How often do you change your mind over trade direction in a day?

All of these deplete an account.

The key word here is consistence.

Splitlink · Aug 26, 2007

options said:
You can live on 20 points/pips a day!

Do this consistently day in and day out. Slowly increase stake, and you have a healthy 'wage'.

This requires more control then holding on for the big one. It also allows you more chance to have a 'life' every day. Shut off after reaching target and do whatever.

If 20 a day is still outside your reach, then cut it to 10 points pips a day. Do this consistently and you will reverse the flow of money back into your account.

You have more chance of building your account slowly but surely working this way then going for the 'big' one every day.

Do not have any regrets. If the market you are trading runs for 150 after you are out so what? You have done your job. And it is a job. Stick to your rules. No one is the best trader in the world, equally no one is the worst trader in the world.
How many times has the market reversed on anyone and turned a 'win' into a 'loss'. How often do you get 'whipped' a couple of times a day. How often do you change your mind over trade direction in a day?

All of these deplete an account.

The key word here is consistence.

I think that you have to be an opportunist when opportunity presents itself. You should aim for 25 and then put a stop at 20 to lock the profits in, if that is your aim. However, if it sails past 20 and steadily increases to 150 points, I'm hoping tp catch it, not philosophically say "Oh, well. Tomorrow's another day!"

There comes a time when rules are made to be broken. I try to go for 20, if I'm lucky. If I was to close out on 20, all the time, though, I think that I would be worse off in the long run. Many times I feel that the day is going to go higher and I'm sure that you all do too, on many occasions.

20 points is 400 points per working month and can represent a lot of money. But not on all of those days is one going to get 20 points, or even 1. More than one day is going to be a loser and you have to get those points back on other days.

Split

dbphoenix · Aug 26, 2007

trendie said:
5: stops: no. only stop-losses. trailing-losses are a bit of problem for me! a trailing stop for me would actually be a "pullback" and a potential point of entry!!

Why can't it be both? If you've placed your stop at a point that seems best to you and it gets tripped, but price then resumes its original course, why not just forget the fact that you've just been stopped out and use what has turned out to be a pullback to make a new entry?

Db

Splitlink · Aug 26, 2007

dbphoenix said:
Why can't it be both? If you've placed your stop at a point that seems best to you and it gets tripped, but price then resumes its original course, why not just forget the fact that you've just been stopped out and use what has turned out to be a pullback to make a new entry?

Db

I think that the answer to your question is that the trader has made his 20 points and does not want to lose them, again. It's a very phsycological block and one that I can only overcome if I accept the fact that it may be a reversal and that I may lose my profit but trade, nevertheless, without fear. That, in turn, is easier if I have been averaging more than 20 points per day until now.

However, if my average was less than I might be reluctant to do it.

In June I made over 200 points until the final day. My sights were lower than 20 per day.

My desire to get those few points more on the last day of the month resulted in that I did not! I ended with 198. Nevertheless, I think that I did the right thing. The world is not going to stop if you do not reach your target.

Split

dbphoenix · Aug 26, 2007

Splitlink said:
I think that the answer to your question is that the trader has made his 20 points and does not want to lose them, again.

That depends on where he entered the trade. The tripped stop may result in a loss. Either way, buying the pullback is a new trade, one which has to be evaluated on its own terms.

Db

Slorm · Aug 26, 2007

Splitlink said:
I think that you have to be an opportunist when opportunity presents itself. You should aim for 25 and then put a stop at 20 to lock the profits in, if that is your aim. However, if it sails past 20 and steadily increases to 150 points, I'm hoping tp catch it, not philosophically say "Oh, well. Tomorrow's another day!"
Split

I agree wih Split, lock in the profit and let it run, you're using the SB firms money then not your own.

View losses as a business expense, it's simply one of the costs of trading and all businesses have costs. Combined with risk management (eg never risk more than 1% on a single trade, stop after three failed trades in a day in a row (as clearly I'm misreading the market)) and you then know the total potential cost on a losing day and what your initial stop should be and price per point.

Keeping emotion at bay is the hardest thing particularly self doubt and fear of loss. Ice cold logic is the best state of mind but easier said than done.

options · Aug 26, 2007

"what are workable methods of overcoming the jitteryness of trading?"

I think a few have missed the original point and relative answer.

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