Best Thread Euribor Flipper??

newsoros

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Gentlemen, hows it going?
Im new to this board and have a question about EB's

For the people out there trading EB's, over the last month there appears to be a flipper operating in the liquid Euribor month. Does anyone know more about this, or who it is??

Also are there any LIFFE rules&reg's that people know of that could end this, as Eurex are totally impotent with the schatz/bobl/bund BS thats going on
Cheers
 
In my opinion if someone is putting large bid/offers in and IS willing to be hit on them then they can't be doing that much wrong.

Perhaps the reason that the markets seem so reluctant to do anything is a flipper or a few flipper type traders are very very good for business and an exchange is there to make money.

If you look at the bund flipper since he's been operating volumes have been going through the roof so the argument 'it's bad for business' cannot be that strong.

If you're the new Soros, newsoros then surely you should have the market smarts to get around this minor problem :)
 
RE: EB Flipper

Its true that offically they are not breaking exchange rules, as their huge bids/offers could be hit/or lifted - but its stll a bitch!

The guy knows there are a lot of locals and spreaders leaning on every bid/offer, so he just takes money out of their pockets.


As the newsoros, im still at the begining part of the learning curve - in 10 years you'll hear about me bringing down the Euro!
 
Its true that offically they are not breaking exchange rules, as their huge bids/offers could be hit/or lifted - but its stll a bitch!

The guy knows there are a lot of locals and spreaders leaning on every bid/offer, so he just takes money out of their pockets.

Can you give a specific example of when this has happened?
I would like to look back at the tape to see what was done.
 
well he was def. around last week - weds, thurs fri. He was offering upto 7/8000 lots, a 500 lot clip trades and it went with with 6000. He then cancelled some of the offer, trying to put the squeze on people
 
He has a very apt name that Rotter.
Can't really blame him for using the latest technology and being active in the market though.

How does a flip trade work on Euribor?
 
Well he knows there are a lot of spreaders leaning on the schatz to hedge, so he can use both contracts to put the squeeze on locals. For example, he will hit the EB bid with 2000 or so, flipping bid to offer with 15000 up. At the same time he will be bringing the new bid quantity down, maybe doing the same in the schatz. Then once he has covered his short he'l do it all over again. Im GUESSING this is what he does, but who knows.
Today he is all over the EB.
 
flipper

yes i have noticed him in euribor as well. he is everywhere basically...

whats worst is that he has set up a fund, so the more investors he gets, the bigger his size/limits probably will be- the he can do whatever he likes
 
I expect it is all automated so it is easy to run on loads of contracts/markets at the same time.
There will probably be much more of this sort of thing as the number of auto-traders grow.
 
I do not think Rotter is in Euribor. The large volumes are coming form calendar spreaders and Euribor/Schatz/Bobl spreaders. On top of this you have addicted buyers who will see any sell-off in Euribor as a reason to bid it back up and these boys are the real problem, mainly institutionals, b*stards. It will take a biig washout to get rid of them.
Rotter has been actively flipping schatz this week but I think it is much harder to flip Euribor and the same stragtegy would require huge limits. Have you noticed the calendar volumes on autospreaders that account for around 10,000lots everytime the appropriate level apears as top of stack bid or offer in any month. Too many locals not enough paper. Liffe are having big problems when things get busy...It is bl*ody scary now over figures when you find you cannot pull orders...I think Euribor is a problem, may be time to look around at Eurodollar or Sterling.
 
Hi TW, good to see you are still around.

Has the paper dried up or are there just too many locals now?

Had a look at the ticks going through and could not see anything unusual in the last few days.
The 500 lot clips that were talked about seem pretty common in the active months.

I would have thought flipping is a pretty risky strategy so wonder if RotterInvest will blow up at
some point.
 
Paper is certainly thinner than I remember it but I also think that this is because they are sharpening up on their execution as anybody should, now the markets are electronic. Traders are more execution specialists and analysts decide what to do. Even on fairly big volume days the amount of paper that crosses the bid/ask spread is less and less.
Other issues include volatility as rates have not moved in a long time and do not look like being moved by ECB for a while to come. Also there are a lot of new traders in Euribor, even large arcades in India are now trading Liffe and Eurex, where this ends I do not know. Some of the locals have 10,000clip limits and while it is so quiet they are happy to stick a few thousand either side of a traded price and pick up the small bits of pro rata on the paper that comes from the brokers as market orders and anything else for that matter. These guys are visible because the market will be lets say 10,000 a side with one mid price in small volume flipping about and as soon as either side trades in more than a few lots thousands will be pulled from the volume. It is a bit pathetic but it works.
I think that when the markets get back to their old self again and volatility returns then it is likely people trying to flip or spoof will be taken out and driven to their doom. Just a matter of time. Until that time arrives however these guys will continue to make excellent returns. Thing that makes rotter so unpopular incidentally is that his primary targets in his flipping are other locals. I believe he received death threats in past. I have no idea how rotterinvest will manage large capital, this style of trading is not set up to manage more than a few million. Maybe he will try his hand at directional. If he is as smart as he has been in Eurex on that, then sure he will do very well.
 
The idea of having locals in a different continent to the exchange is a strange concept.

Not a big incentive to invest in a fund if your fund manager is receiving death threats from other
traders. Think I would give that one a miss.

Perhaps you could run a sweep stake on whether the market or a hired assassin will take him out first?
 
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how you doing twalker long time no speak, are you still spreading or more directional now
 
twalker said:
Paper is certainly thinner than I remember it ............

How do you know this ?
How do you recognize paper on electronic contracts ?

Thanks
 
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