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The main difference that I'm aware of is liquidity. ES (emini S&P) is more liquid than YM (emini Dow), although it only seems to make a difference if you are trading 20 lots or above.
If you're trading one lot then there's virtually no difference in liquidity.
If you're trading one lot then there's virtually no difference in liquidity.
blackcab
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There's an article called "I'm Familiar With Stock but How do Futures Work?" here - http://www.cbot.com/cbot/pub/cont_detail/0,3206,1560+17721,00.html - which goes over some basics. It's a CBOT advertorial, so therefore selling the benefits of YM over ES & NQ, so take it with a pinch of salt.
What do others think of this article? Are the claimed benefits of YM over ES/NQ real or irrelevant? Particularly the point about granularity (contract size * smallest point movement).
What do others think of this article? Are the claimed benefits of YM over ES/NQ real or irrelevant? Particularly the point about granularity (contract size * smallest point movement).
donaldduke
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Also
ES is typically more volatile, has bigger moves, so you can trade 7 ES contracts instead of say 10 YM for the same profit/loss.
For the same reason ES has higher margin requirements than YM.
ES is typically more volatile, has bigger moves, so you can trade 7 ES contracts instead of say 10 YM for the same profit/loss.
For the same reason ES has higher margin requirements than YM.
It seems the YM pros and cons so far are...
pros
1 higher granularity of points in the mini-Dow - but does this actually translate into an effective advantage for a trader?
cons
1 proportionally smaller movement than on the ES contract
2 less liquid when trading a high number of contracts
Anyone not concur with this?
pros
1 higher granularity of points in the mini-Dow - but does this actually translate into an effective advantage for a trader?
cons
1 proportionally smaller movement than on the ES contract
2 less liquid when trading a high number of contracts
Anyone not concur with this?
Trevor
Sorry but I do not agree with any of your conclusions.
Of course having 6 extra profit pionts is an advantage, you can exit at say 3 or 4 points on the Dow whereas you are still stuck at .25 on the S&P.
Don't know that many people who trade 20 contracts on these boards so liquidity is not a problem for the majority.
Today the S&P had over 3000 contracts on one side and it was stuck there for some considerable time, not all contracts where filled and the market reversed i.e. all the liquidity was on one side only.
I do not know where this higher volatility for the S&P comes from, see chart below.
The high and low of the Dow are more extreme than the S&P.
Sorry but I do not agree with any of your conclusions.
Of course having 6 extra profit pionts is an advantage, you can exit at say 3 or 4 points on the Dow whereas you are still stuck at .25 on the S&P.
Don't know that many people who trade 20 contracts on these boards so liquidity is not a problem for the majority.
Today the S&P had over 3000 contracts on one side and it was stuck there for some considerable time, not all contracts where filled and the market reversed i.e. all the liquidity was on one side only.
I do not know where this higher volatility for the S&P comes from, see chart below.
The high and low of the Dow are more extreme than the S&P.
Attachments
liqidity is of course a primary concern in trading - since if you can trade one contract with success - you would then want to trade as many as you could - so if you are not trading at least 20 emini contracts - that means you are probably trading in ones or twos - and by extension - you have not mastered trading yet
but liquidity also effects the validity of each price level in any given contract - so you cannot compare two apparent similar contracts which have different liquidity levels - since if those levels are not tradeable - they dont exist as far as making money from trading is concerned
but liquidity also effects the validity of each price level in any given contract - so you cannot compare two apparent similar contracts which have different liquidity levels - since if those levels are not tradeable - they dont exist as far as making money from trading is concerned
stevet said:
hmmmm subjective re "you would want to trade as many as you could" trade as many as you feel you need. look at what your needs are and why. when you know enough is enough then it always will be. you will then be fulfilled.
and by extension whats the pass mark to masterdom. 100/200/300/400/500/1000/ etc, etc, BIG LOTS ?
come on now SIZE doesn't matter, masters trade to what they know to be enough, not what others say they should be trading.
not picking nits here but you can apply that logic to all areas of your existence.
check your ego's , limit your ambitions.
this sits alongside the "how bigs yours" mindset. lets flop em out then.....
also stevet what if others told you your max size "Just aint cutting it?" trade bigger.. and bigger and bigger....
some people want/need thousands/ 100's of thousands/ millions..... there will be masters in
all brackets and even then some aint even bloody content,,,,,,, lol eesshhh...
Individualistically
jd.
JTrader
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Hi jsd
I fully understand and appreciate the points that you've just made.
However, from my point of view and possibly from the viewpoint of a majority of traders, the reason why people get into trading is to make money (even if they will only target a certain earning level that they do not wish to cross). Therefore it seems reasonalbe to assume that a trader would wish to see their stakes (number of contracts) increase as their expertise increases.
However, at $50 per point per contract on ES, I have no doubt that it is possible to make a very healthy living from just a handful of contracts.
jtrader.
I fully understand and appreciate the points that you've just made.
However, from my point of view and possibly from the viewpoint of a majority of traders, the reason why people get into trading is to make money (even if they will only target a certain earning level that they do not wish to cross). Therefore it seems reasonalbe to assume that a trader would wish to see their stakes (number of contracts) increase as their expertise increases.
However, at $50 per point per contract on ES, I have no doubt that it is possible to make a very healthy living from just a handful of contracts.
jtrader.
Hi jtrader
I agree its all about money, its there for the picking, but what size basket you need to fill and why is down to individuals, many people have blown out trading bigger for peer approval maybe? or other ego driven reasons, which many do not even look into, so when i see comments saying you have to do or you would want to be doing this or else you wont be that etc..... it rings alarms.... those are satements of beliefs of one, which may be right and good for one, but not a rubber stamp for the masses, I would sit a person down and start with "What are your Objectives" ? . followed by "why that much" ? to gauge level of thought/ flexibility of beliefs. and yes it may well likely lead to increase of size over time if thats whats "Needed" to deliver on objectives...
thats my belief system recognising individual needs. small point with potentially big implications if ignored. As then others may well be conforming and manipulated living their life with the belief structure of another individual... and subconsciously over time people will crack, because their belief system subconscious wants its own life back..... it goes deeper but thats how things can go from small points.
jd.
I agree its all about money, its there for the picking, but what size basket you need to fill and why is down to individuals, many people have blown out trading bigger for peer approval maybe? or other ego driven reasons, which many do not even look into, so when i see comments saying you have to do or you would want to be doing this or else you wont be that etc..... it rings alarms.... those are satements of beliefs of one, which may be right and good for one, but not a rubber stamp for the masses, I would sit a person down and start with "What are your Objectives" ? . followed by "why that much" ? to gauge level of thought/ flexibility of beliefs. and yes it may well likely lead to increase of size over time if thats whats "Needed" to deliver on objectives...
thats my belief system recognising individual needs. small point with potentially big implications if ignored. As then others may well be conforming and manipulated living their life with the belief structure of another individual... and subconsciously over time people will crack, because their belief system subconscious wants its own life back..... it goes deeper but thats how things can go from small points.
jd.
rossored
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I always get my butt kicked big-time when trading ES, and much less of a kicking when I trade YM (and get it wrong), and I know of at least one other trader who frequents these boards who seems to suffer the same fate.
Its probably to do with the size - when ES starts to motor and I'm on the wrong side of it, I panic a bit as the account starts to go into freefall (much as I tell myself I'm not panicking) and invariably close out of what would be, if I held on a little longer, a breakeven or winning position. But when the Dow starts to go, I always seem to anticipate the inevitable pullback more easily than on ES (stupid, innit) and hang on longer (assuming no major S/R barriers get stuffed in the process of hanging on). I rarely trade ES now as a consequence
Have you thought about trading NQ futs?
Just my tuppence worth. Won't be able to reply to any posts as I'm off on holiday now :cheesy:
Its probably to do with the size - when ES starts to motor and I'm on the wrong side of it, I panic a bit as the account starts to go into freefall (much as I tell myself I'm not panicking) and invariably close out of what would be, if I held on a little longer, a breakeven or winning position. But when the Dow starts to go, I always seem to anticipate the inevitable pullback more easily than on ES (stupid, innit) and hang on longer (assuming no major S/R barriers get stuffed in the process of hanging on). I rarely trade ES now as a consequence
Have you thought about trading NQ futs?
Just my tuppence worth. Won't be able to reply to any posts as I'm off on holiday now :cheesy:
JTrader
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"so when i see comments saying you have to do or you would want to be doing this or else you wont be that etc..... it rings alarms.... those are satements of beliefs of one, which may be right and good for one, but not a rubber stamp for the masses, I would sit a person down and start with "What are your Objectives" ? . followed by "why that much" ? to gauge level of thought/ flexibility of beliefs. and yes it may well likely lead to increase of size over time if thats whats "Needed" to deliver on objectives..."
I agree :|
I agree :|
blackcab
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Wouldn't the no. of contracts you deal in just be a function of your risk, based on % of capital you're prepared to risk and judging the downside to the trade you're about to enter, i.e. the stop.
E.g. capital $75,000, capital risk 1%, downside to current trade 5pts, ES=$50 per point, therefore you will trade 3 contracts this time.
E.g. capital $75,000, capital risk 1%, downside to current trade 5pts, ES=$50 per point, therefore you will trade 3 contracts this time.
JTrader
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"Wouldn't the no. of contracts you deal in just be a function of your risk, based on % of capital you're prepared to risk and judging the downside to the trade you're about to enter, i.e. the stop.
E.g. capital $75,000, capital risk 1%, downside to current trade 5pts, ES=$50 per point, therefore you will trade 3 contracts this time."
Totally agree. I would only ever increase my stakes/number of contracts in line with my 1% capital risk per trade policy.
E.g. capital $75,000, capital risk 1%, downside to current trade 5pts, ES=$50 per point, therefore you will trade 3 contracts this time."
Totally agree. I would only ever increase my stakes/number of contracts in line with my 1% capital risk per trade policy.
blackcab said:
faulty link above, try
http://www.cbot.com/cbot/pub/cont_detail/0,3206,1560+17721,00.html
interesting article and it did answer some points I had in mind
mr.marcus
no - i cant see why anyone would trade unless it was their job - but just because its your job does not mean they cant enjoy it and get a buzz from it - but you guys dont seem to get it - part of trading - and a key part - is to trade to the maximum size you can - why wouldnt you do that - even if its your hobby
trading is one of the few things in life where success or failure has a direct measurment - there might be ancillary positive or negatives - but you are making money or losing it - and the more you make - if you can do that over time - the more you are doing what you do correctly
trading though is work - and i want to be paid to work
and i guage success in life by a whole lot of other sutff - just because i might talk about trading on here does not mean i am not helping the world be a better more loving sweet place!
i realise that in the UK it is not a good thing to be aspirational or successful or want to be good at what you do - and that to be second is better than being first - and that money is this dirty grubby nasty thing - but for some reason - i dont seem to have ever got that type of mentality
no - i cant see why anyone would trade unless it was their job - but just because its your job does not mean they cant enjoy it and get a buzz from it - but you guys dont seem to get it - part of trading - and a key part - is to trade to the maximum size you can - why wouldnt you do that - even if its your hobby
trading is one of the few things in life where success or failure has a direct measurment - there might be ancillary positive or negatives - but you are making money or losing it - and the more you make - if you can do that over time - the more you are doing what you do correctly
trading though is work - and i want to be paid to work
and i guage success in life by a whole lot of other sutff - just because i might talk about trading on here does not mean i am not helping the world be a better more loving sweet place!
i realise that in the UK it is not a good thing to be aspirational or successful or want to be good at what you do - and that to be second is better than being first - and that money is this dirty grubby nasty thing - but for some reason - i dont seem to have ever got that type of mentality
