A fish in the atlantic...

A fish in the ocean...

Hello all,

First post, but long time reader.

I've been reading economics and trading, trading strategies for what seems like many years now and have recently entered the game for real after plucking up enough courage to do so. Over the last year I've built up a virtual trading technique which appears to make some money from scalping and fading currencies and indices during the day.

So, over the last 4 weeks, I opened and started trading on the markets using an igindex retail account. During this time I traded by enforcing my strategies, technical indicator signals and paper trading techniques and have just found it amazingly difficult to actually make a return on the majority of these trades. In fact, it appears that the majority lose more money then make in the long term and I'm feeling really deflated by the process (as I'm sure many guys feel when they start out) as my account is generally disappearing in front of my eyes. I'd really like to have a good go at this and make this successful but I'm sure, I'm like many other guys who are starting out, they just are looking for the right approach wihtout destroying their accounts when moving from virtual to actual trading.

Any suggestions, comments or helpful thoughts would really be appreciated. I don't want, nor am looking for a free lunch and would just appreciate a constructive discussion on this. Many Thanks

Fear is a trader's enemy...

if you dont mind, try to let us know whats your entry/exit technique, by then only people able to comment if its your technique problem or psychological factor

Re: A fish in the ocean...

firingtrades said:

just found it amazingly difficult to actually make a return on the majority of these trades. In fact, it appears that the majority lose more money then make in the long term

Any suggestions, comments or helpful thoughts would really be appreciated. I don't want, nor am looking for a free lunch and would just appreciate a constructive discussion on this. Many Thanks

Click to expand...

Yes, you are. You enter an arena where really experienced, battle hardened professionals compete viciously for the available profits and you expect to compete with them with a spread betting account and some unstructured demo trading experience. Those who succeed in the markets have earned the right through years of graft and various formative experiences, some of which are extremely challenging and can be unpleasant.

The majority lose. The market is not here to provide you with an easy living. Now that you have learned it is not easy, you have three options:

1) Listen to the majority of know nothings and their fraudulent generalities concerning psychology, strategies, "systems" etc. Continue to delude yourself that you have an effective means to compete. Keep giving your money to the bookie until you get bored and give up or cannot afford to continue.

2) Consider that you have now learned this is a lot of hard work, and you are not willing to make the effort, so concede now and do not try to trade again. There is nothing wrong with admitting this. Not everybody can do it, and not everybody is willing or able to make the sacrifices involved.

3) Ignore the 99% on the Internet who know nothing, and study seriously in isolation for several years until you can self generate the correct thinking to progress. You will get no help from others, as those who can help do not for various reasons, and the rest cannot help no matter their intentions. You must resolve to do this on your own, or not at all. Success will also require you to paper trade any method you evolve for several months before committing capital. Additionally you will need to study your chosen markets for several years and apply critical thought before you have the slightest hint of an advantage. And this is just for starters...

If you put your attention on this, and ignore ego and pride, you will see that what I have written is likely the most honest and helpful response you will receive here, even though it is likely not what you wanted to hear.

Re: A fish in the ocean...

ccclarette658 said:

Yes, you are. You enter an arena where really experienced, battle hardened professionals compete viciously for the available profits and you expect to compete with them with a spread betting account and some unstructured demo trading experience. Those who succeed in the markets have earned the right through years of graft and various formative experiences, some of which are extremely challenging and can be unpleasant.

The majority lose. The market is not here to provide you with an easy living. Now that you have learned it is not easy, you have three options:

1) Listen to the majority of know nothings and their fraudulent generalities concerning psychology, strategies, "systems" etc. Continue to delude yourself that you have an effective means to compete. Keep giving your money to the bookie until you get bored and give up or cannot afford to continue.

2) Consider that you have now learned this is a lot of hard work, and you are not willing to make the effort, so concede now and do not try to trade again. There is nothing wrong with admitting this. Not everybody can do it, and not everybody is willing or able to make the sacrifices involved.

3) Ignore the 99% on the Internet who know nothing, and study seriously in isolation for several years until you can self generate the correct thinking to progress. You will get no help from others, as those who can help do not for various reasons, and the rest cannot help no matter their intentions. You must resolve to do this on your own, or not at all. Success will also require you to paper trade any method you evolve for several months before committing capital. Additionally you will need to study your chosen markets for several years and apply critical thought before you have the slightest hint of an advantage. And this is just for starters...

If you put your attention on this, and ignore ego and pride, you will see that what I have written is likely the most honest and helpful response you will receive here, even though it is likely not what you wanted to hear.

Click to expand...

Many thanks for your comments, all of which I have taken onboard and respect.

everyonerich said:

if you dont mind, try to let us know whats your entry/exit technique, by then only people able to comment if its your technique problem or psychological factor

Click to expand...

Hi Everyonerich,

As you posted a response, I'd like to reply to you on this.

I'm mainly trading AUD/USD because I like the price changes but it's not to volatile vs other spots and the spreads are 1.0 to 2.0 on igindex. I'd ideally like to scrape one or two points either side of the trend but most of the time found that the trend just went a little deeper or higher on the short and long positions which then hit the stop loss.

The majority of the time I was looking at rsi and momentum as the triggers forthe buy / sells and was keeping an eye on the overall market trend. I'm not sure if this is enough or if I should be looking at price reversal though I find the candlesticks to be a little ticker to follow and don't always produce the results you expect.

Whats your view on the price reversal? Is this something that affects the situation here? Do you also trade currencies or are you a stocks and shares man?

Many Thanks. FT.

let me get this straight, you are are aiming for 1 or 2 points??

if thats correct, you are going to get murdered.

you are a retail trader/punter on a spreadbet acount. trade a style that suits the tools and knodledge you have a vailable to you.

I dont understand how your years of reading led you to believe that scalping is the best way for you to trade.

I believe Arabian said (and i agree) that the only thing a retail trader should be trying to do is trade a trend following system keeping tight stops and letting profits run.

Vaco (formerly Elefteros) said:

let me get this straight, you are are aiming for 1 or 2 points??

if thats correct, you are going to get murdered.

you are a retail trader/punter on a spreadbet acount. trade a style that suits the tools and knodledge you have a vailable to you.

I dont understand how your years of reading led you to believe that scalping is the best way for you to trade.

I believe Arabian said (and i agree) that the only thing a retail trader should be trying to do is trade a trend following system keeping tight stops and letting profits run.

Click to expand...

Thanks for this.

By trend following strategies do you mean break out pattern indicators?

Re: A fish in the ocean...

firingtrades said:

Many thanks for your comments, all of which I have taken onboard and respect.

Click to expand...

like that'll help, just put the saddo on ignore, it was amusing the first time he gave it the; "you'll never make it, until you've walked ten miles, over hot coals and broken bottles, in the hot desert with only your pi55 for sustaintance", now it's just plain fookin boring.
This trading game is a doddle, just get stuck in and give it a go... endex..

Meh, if all else fails just buy and hold growth stocks in bear markets

Re: A fish in the ocean...

Black Swan said:

just get stuck in and give it a go...

Click to expand...

Got to agree... To give a contrasting view to the 'Your doomed' posts;

I got the idea that i should be identifying where i WOULD place my stop losses and then assume based on common world psychology that other trades would be doing the same, due to similar educations (On small time frames) and then i'd just trade that order flow.

& Since then i've been profitable and i came across that idea very early on; fortunately i was in trading to try become skillful at it and to see if i could play, rather than to win on magic formulae & 'Trade without effort' strategies - So i imagine i skipped alot of crap just through actually getting stuck in and focusing on becomming GOOD at trading - rather than pretending it was all about finding the perfect entry.

Cheers.

I should really stop posting now... What a loser.

Re: A fish in the ocean...

Black Swan said:

like that'll help, just put the saddo on ignore, it was amusing the first time he gave it the; "you'll never make it, until you've walked ten miles, over hot coals and broken bottles, in the hot desert with only your pi55 for sustaintance", now it's just plain fookin boring.
This trading game is a doddle, just get stuck in and give it a go... endex..

Click to expand...

Thanks black swan, I must admit I was somewhat reflective after that response, but didn't want to think about it too much as I'm a determined character and he may just like to discourage people who are starting out. But he does have a point around strategies so I was thinking of going back to the drawing board and backtesting mine to see how they perform and then re-enter once I'm confident with them.

Looks like you know your stuff, so any comments on this are appreciated.

Re: A fish in the ocean...

GladiatorX said:

Got to agree... To give a contrasting view to the 'Your doomed' posts;

I got the idea that i should be identifying where i WOULD place my stop losses and then assume based on common world psychology that other trades would be doing the same, due to similar educations (On small time frames) and then i'd just trade that order flow.

& Since then i've been profitable and i came across that idea very early on; fortunately i was in trading to try become skillful at it and to see if i could play, rather than to win on magic formulae & 'Trade without effort' strategies - So i imagine i skipped alot of crap just through actually getting stuck in and focusing on becomming GOOD at trading - rather than pretending it was all about finding the perfect entry.

Cheers.

I should really stop posting now... What a loser.

Click to expand...

Thanks Gladiator.

Re: A fish in the ocean...

Black Swan said:

like that'll help, just put the saddo on ignore, it was amusing the first time he gave it the; "you'll never make it, until you've walked ten miles, over hot coals and broken bottles, in the hot desert with only your pi55 for sustaintance", now it's just plain fookin boring.
This trading game is a doddle, just get stuck in and give it a go... endex..

Click to expand...

Sorry black swan, forgot to ask,what do you prefer to trade or do you diversify?

Always DMA or do you use retail sometimes?

FT

Re: A fish in the ocean...

firingtrades said:

Sorry black swan, forgot to ask,what do you prefer to trade or do you diversify?

Always DMA or do you use retail sometimes?

FT

Click to expand...

Only forex and light crude. Mixture of SB and DMA...BTW, back to a point you raised this morning, there are guys on 'ere who'll take perverse delight in messing with your head and trying to get you to lose your mojo; telling you how hard this business is, that you'll never make it...it's up to you to try and prove (to yourself) that they're wrong...Keep it simple, keep plugging away without risking too much for the first twelve months, perhaps no more than a 1500 quid limit to your losses, treat it as educashun fees

Re: A fish in the ocean...

Black Swan said:

Only forex and light crude. Mixture of SB and DMA...BTW, back to a point you raised this morning, there are guys on 'ere who'll take perverse delight in messing with your head and trying to get you to lose your mojo; telling you how hard this business is, that you'll never make it...it's up to you to try and prove (to yourself) that they're wrong...Keep it simple, keep plugging away without risking too much for the first twelve months, perhaps no more than a 1500 quid limit to your losses, treat it as educashun fees

Click to expand...

Bolded the last part 'cause that absolutely has to be the attitude.
If you lose, think of it as tuition, as long as you can see yourself getting better, and you keep the losses low enough to live with.

Re: A fish in the ocean...

Black Swan said:

This trading game is a doddle, just get stuck in and give it a go... endex..

Click to expand...

Excellent. More cannon fodder. Keep it coming please.

Black Swan said:

there are guys on 'ere who'll take perverse delight in messing with your head and trying to get you to lose your mojo; telling you how hard this business is, that you'll never make it...it's up to you to try and prove (to yourself) that they're wrong...Keep it simple, keep plugging away without risking too much for the first twelve months, perhaps no more than a 1500 quid limit to your losses, treat it as educashun fees

Click to expand...

There are guys on here who know nothing but get kicks out of pretending they do to people who know even less. Major ego issues. They might even tell you how easy it is, how anyone can have a go and be successful with very little work.

The same fraudulent generalities: "keep it simple". This will of course lead to continued success in one of the most challenging professions available.

They might even set you a challenge: you must involve your ego and set out to prove someone wrong, for the sake of your own pride. Finally they will misdirect you by advising you to focus on financial outcomes and "limiting losses" rather than correct trading. Education fees? What can you possibly learn by losing money on purpose? If you really don't need it why not support a charity instead? You ought to be paper trading until you get it right consistently.

By all means, challenge yourself to disprove an experienced professional who had the audacity to suggest this is a serious business where the right to success needs to be earned.

Yes, you are very simple indeed, and we are all happy for you to keep plugging away! Carry on...

Re: A fish in the ocean...

firingtrades said:

Many thanks for your comments, all of which I have taken onboard and respect.

Click to expand...

firingtrades said:

I must admit I was somewhat reflective after that response, but didn't want to think about it too much as I'm a determined character and he may just like to discourage people who are starting out. But he does have a point around strategies so I was thinking of going back to the drawing board and backtesting mine to see how they perform and then re-enter once I'm confident with them.

Click to expand...

I gave you objective facts - whether you are discouraged is your affair. You ought to continue being reflective and engaging brain.

firingtrades said:

Looks like you know your stuff, so any comments on this are appreciated.

Click to expand...

Much easier to listen to the siren song than to face uncomfortable facts. The choice is yours, and you will face the attendant consequences whatever you decide.


"You will come first of all to the Sirens, who are enchanters
of all mankind and whoever comes their way; and that man
who unsuspecting approaches them, and listens to the Sirens
singing, has no prospect of coming home and delighting
his wife and little children as they stand about him in greeting,
but the Sirens by the melody of their singing enchant him.

They sit in their meadow, but the beach before it is piled with boneheaps
of men now rotted away, and the skins shrivel upon them.
You must drive straight on past, but melt down sweet wax of honey
and with it stop your companions' ears, so none can listen;
the rest, that is, but if you yourself are wanting to hear them,
then have them tie you hand and foot on the fast ship, standing
upright against the mast with the ropes' ends lashed around it,
so that you can have joy in hearing the song of the Sirens;
but if you supplicate your men and implore them to set you
free, then they must tie you fast with even more lashings."

Re: A fish in the ocean...

ccclarette658 said:

Excellent. More cannon fodder. Keep it coming please.



There are guys on here who know nothing but get kicks out of pretending they do to people who know even less. Major ego issues. They might even tell you how easy it is, how anyone can have a go and be successful with very little work.

The same fraudulent generalities: "keep it simple". This will of course lead to continued success in one of the most challenging professions available.

They might even set you a challenge: you must involve your ego and set out to prove someone wrong, for the sake of your own pride. Finally they will misdirect you by advising you to focus on financial outcomes and "limiting losses" rather than correct trading. Education fees? What can you possibly learn by losing money on purpose? If you really don't need it why not support a charity instead? You ought to be paper trading until you get it right consistently.

By all means, challenge yourself to disprove an experienced professional who had the audacity to suggest this is a serious business where the right to success needs to be earned.

Yes, you are very simple indeed, and we are all happy for you to keep plugging away! Carry on...

Click to expand...

You're a fraud, a troll and a bitter loser...get a life...or don't, your choice....

Re: A fish in the ocean...

Interesting thread indeed. My 2 penneth would be, yes learn to trade a method/ strategy on sim/back test first because if it doesn't work under those circumstances it won't work. Next demo trade it with the view that live trading returns will be much less than the returns you see for all of these endeavors. This is because in sim and back testing news skewing your results has a huge effect especially if daytrading. If you then work out statistics etc results again will be skewed.
Demo trade for a while and make damn certain what you're doing is profitable on demo.
Then trade the lightest positions you can for real. This is where you find the difference- those nice runs you caught in backtesting that give you positive expectancy aren't so good, you don't get filled, you get slipped on the exit etc etc. Or you don't trade the news at all so you are NOT doing what you did in your testing.


Keep it slow with light positions even when you're first starting to turn some profit, wait for that first choppy, spiky sideways market that you know will give you drawdown and see how deep it gets, whether you can cope with it etc. Don't trade the sideways market I hear someone say, maybe but you will always get caught by the start of it, then if you stay out, miss the break at the end of it, further skewing probabilities against statistics.

So in summary, keep it slow, light, stick at it and don't give up. This is a long, painfully drawn out marathon, not a sprint