Which is harder?

wasp

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Something for a bit of banter whilst working...

Which would you say is the hardest to consistently produce profits (with the minimalist risk too of course ;) ).

Scalping means that many more trades so a higher loss rate(?) Yet swing/position trading means larger stops and larger losses.

Any thoughts and opinions?
 
Simple probability kicks in - the greater the number of trades, the greater the cumulative probability of something disastrous happening. I'm happy swing trading with an acceptable level of risk, but (and I may be biased, as I spreadbet, and SB isn't worth spit for scalping) I just couldn't face making that many trades to try and carve out a profit.

I'm a swinger and proud!


(EDIT: Here's a thought - I know you like to trade the scandinavian currencies, don't you wasp? I'm a big fan of USD/SEK myself, and there's no way I'd ever scalp it, but have made great profits swinging the beast...)
 
Jbat001 said:
Simple probability kicks in - the greater the number of trades, the greater the cumulative probability of something disastrous happening. I'm happy swing trading with an acceptable level of risk, but (and I may be biased, as I spreadbet, and SB isn't worth spit for scalping) I just couldn't face making that many trades to try and carve out a profit.

I'm a swinger and proud!


(EDIT: Here's a thought - I know you like to trade the scandinavian currencies, don't you wasp? I'm a big fan of USD/SEK myself, and there's no way I'd ever scalp it, but have made great profits swinging the beast...)

SB's aside, I'm not sure I'd agree really as surely you wouldn't be a scalper if you weren't making good hedway with it? I know Frugi scalps away and I'm sure does well out of it.

I think the more trades would mean more losses but it doesn't automatically make it so its more financially detrimental. Obviously money managment and risk control plays a large factor yet having tried all three (scalping, intraday and swinging) I still find 2/3 trades per day the easiest to consistently acheive profits from (MA's or not).

My love affair with all currencies Scandanavian has also proved best intraday, and USD/DKK proving my favourite at the moment but of course this is not to say it can't be scalped or swung. :eek:

The biggest problems I have with scalping is the continous excess costs and with swing trading, I just can't be comfortable with my stops as I do like them as tight as possible personally.
 
Why choose?

My best haul this week was the session I combined both. I took one position during a break out and let it run. Meanwhile, I was pursuing my normal short term trading.

The trade I held over night netted +50
The net of all my short term was +34.

JO

edit: (oops, forgot to post the image too...)
 

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wasp said:
Something for a bit of banter whilst working...

Which would you say is the hardest to consistently produce profits (with the minimalist risk too of course ;) ).

Scalping means that many more trades so a higher loss rate(?) Yet swing/position trading means larger stops and larger losses.

Any thoughts and opinions?



Hi,

I'm afraid that I'm slightly confused by the question. Both are valid trading methods and neither would be harder providing that whichever method you choose suits your personality.

To start with, a system that generates more trades like scalping, doesn't have to mean a "higher loss rate". If your scalping system achieves a 60% strike rate then that is a better strike rate then many long term trend following systems that only manage 35%.

Secondly, Swing/Position trading does mean wider stops, but why would that have to mean larger losses? If you know how to size your trades correctly then any stop, wide or narrow, can equal the same loss to your overall trading capital.



Thanks

Damian
 
Jumpoff,

Nice one, good trades!

Damian,

I wasn't searching for an answer, it wasn't a question per se, merely a thread for 'general trading chat' on the pro's and con's of different approaches. Each method does have its own merits and pitfalls. Each trader has his/her own limitations and goals etc so yes, with correct MM and risk management, any method is viable.

The puprose related moreso just to the general views and opinions of each timeframe for the purpose of discussion, not to find some final answer.

C'est la vie.
 
Oh, I see - in which case it seems I may have taken the thread and the question too seriously!

Apologies.....



As for my general views, I personally favour the Position Trader approach as the screen-staring involved with short-term scalping feels too much like a full-time job for me.

With my position trading approach, I can spend an hour in the mornings analysing the markets and setting up my trades without needing to follow the markets closely throughout the day.

As for pros and cons - I think scalping could potentially be less risky because with intraday trading you aren't exposed to overnight gap moves against your position, whereas this is more of a risk in Position Trading.

On the other hand, short-term trading generates more commission costs because of a greater number of trades whereas this is less of a concern for Position Traders.

Each To Their Own !


Thanks

Damian
 
very few traders make lots of intraday trades for very long because very few traders are consistently profitable despite what they think , and if your losing it's hard to keep trading 20 times a day , day in day out and have the money to do it , position traders just lose slower , unless of course they look at their stocks as an investment and simply "buy and hold " as opposed to actively beating the mkt,mind you with less trades the element of chance with position trading means that there are a lot of position traders under the misunderstanding that they are truly profitable over many trades , and potentially just a few who would be profitable over many trades and have just been unlucky .
 
henry766,

I think what you have said is spot on.

A losing intraday strategy will show it's true worth much more quickly than an End-of-Day one.

Whether scalping or position trading, the need to test, test and then test your system again cannot be over-emphasised.


Thanks

Damian
 
Most traders think you need a high percentage of winning trades to be profitable in the markets. Here is an example of a system that only has a probability of winning of 48% and a probability of losing 52%. This system is based off a 50,000 account with a stop in around 8%. Each trade will be risking only 1% of the total 50K or total position size of 6,250.00. Say this trader only made one trade per week or 52 trades per year and his average gain was 10%. This system would expect 8,840.00 potential profits. Now take this system and increase the number of opportunities to 2 trades per week and look what happens. Potential profits jump to 17,680.00. This comes out to around 170.00 per trade and with an expectancy of 2.72%. If he increased his opportunities to 3 times per week he would do even better.

Say another trader is a longer-term trader and gives the positions more wiggle. Lets use 10% stops . He only wins on 40% of his trades this means he losses on 60% of the positions he enters. He does manage to get a 20% profit when he does win. Here is his status.

He takes 52 trades or one per week he will be only buying 5,000.00 per position with 10% stop. Mind you his 10% stop is only 1% of his account. He will have a possible profit of 14,560.00 per year. If he increased his opportunities to 2 trades per week he’s looking at a possible 29,120.00 profit. This would be around 280.00 per trade and an expectancy of 5.60%.

Just because a trader has a high hit rate does not necessarily mean he will have a profitable expectancy system. Of the few examples I’ve shown the guy with a 60% probability of losing had a better system then the guy with a lower loss rate.

I’m studying my own system I have learned my hit rate was pretty high but my profits were low. This is mainly because I would pull out to quickly. I simply would not give the stock a chance to move. I’d often enter to early before the move and because of my tight stops I’d get shaken out for a small loss. I now see the power of using fewer shares and allowing for a larger stop.

What is your trading systems expectancy? You can lean more about this in “Trading your way to Financial Freedom” by Van Tharp
Expectancy is your profit percentage per win multiplied by your win rate minus your loss percentage per loss multiplied by your loss rate.
 
Simple probability kicks in - the greater the number of trades, the greater the cumulative probability of something disastrous happening.

JBat not sure I agree with this. A disaster in my book would entail a market going against my position by a number of ticks that far exceeds my stop loss. This could be due to, say a geopolitical calamity, exchange failure or surprise interest rate cut. Why do you think frequent trading increases liabilty to such an external shock? The requirement for vulnerability is merely that one has an open position at the wrong time. Traders who trade less frequently tend to be in the market for longer, while scalpers will dip in and out all day; either can be caught short. In fact I would say position traders might be more vulnerable because they are actually liable to be in the market for a longer total time than scalpers, prey to overnight surprises and possibly not available to react to news adjust stops etc. as quickly.

Agreed, a scalper is likely to be doing more size and obviously suffering 50 ticks slippage on a 20 lot is worse than on a 1 lot. However his stop is also likely to be much tighter than his position trading friend's which means more chance of being filled close to the last price in a disaster scenario, before everyone has had a chance to pull their bids or asks.

An intraday chart of ES from 15 Oct 1998 would be very handy at this point, but sadly I don't have one. I gather there was tremendous slippage as news hit of Greeno's surprise interest rate cut. It would be useful to know what my disaster scenario might be if a similar thing were to happen again (it will!), assuming tight stops already resting in the market. Quite surprisingly on 9/11 it was easy to get out but of course then it took some time for the enormity of the situation to filter through, whereas the fact of an interest rate cut is not open to interpretation and hits the wires very swiftly.

---

I'd like to distinguish between what I'd call purist scalping, i.e. working the bid/offer and going for literally one or two ticks hundreds of times a day and the sort of retail scalping I indulge in, i.e. going for 4-12 ticks tens of times a day. The latter is possible in a retail environment, while the former would be suicidal at retail commission rates. Purist scalpers also depend on very low latency and very fast equipment, feed, platforms etc. to whch the retail trader may not have access. One thing he can do to mitigate costs is become an exchange member or lease a seat.

Being a lazy type I dug this up from another thread -

There may be an advantage to trading from one particular time frame (with an eye on those around it too, of course) while the dominant pulse is easiest to read in that time frame. There are times when fine detail may give the best view (e.g. during extreme volatility such as post FOMC, NFP etc.) and others when more distance reveals the cleanest waves.

Technically it is easier to predict what is likely to happen a short time away than a long time away. There is less time for surprises. So in this respect a micro time frame may offer an advantage over a longer one - higher probability trades and a higher hit rate - though the more microscopic one goes, the more commissions are incurred (assuming quick exits). But there is more money in shorter time frames. Well, there should be because one is working much harder and more frequently than, say, the position trader who puts on three or four trades a month.

On the other hand, if the market is fractal and random then mathematically there shouldn't be an advantage to any choice of wavelength, as long as position sizing etc. is scaled up or down appropriately.

Does it matter, to oversimplify hideously, if I trade off a 1 minute chart with a 5 point stop loss and 10 point target using 60 lots or off a 30 min chart with a 150 point stop loss, a 300 point target using 2 lots? Assuming I am equally proficient in both time frames then as far as my capital is concerned, no. However this ignores the vital time factor, an opportunity cost. Trader A can make several trades per day whereas Trader B clearly will not. Thus Trader A can make more money in the same time for the same risk. Frequency is good.

Scalping allows for increased trade frequency and more efficient use of capital.

e.g applying the usual risk 1% of capital malarkey on a 25k account say I could risk $250 per trade on Dow futures. Assume a 50% hit rate for sake of argument.

Could do a 2 lot swing trade with a 25 point stop and a 50 point target.
Might get two of these a day. L 25 pts *$5 p/pt * 2 lots ; W 50 pts *$5 p/pt * 2lots: total gross profit $250.

Or a 10 lot scalp with a 5 point stop and a 10 point target.
Might get twenty of these a day. L (5*5*10)*10 ; W(10*5*10)*10 total gross profit $2500. Even after retail comms at $3.50 r/t that's still $1800.

Finally as JO deftly indicates who's to say one can't mix it all up? e.g take a scalp off a tiny time frame that happily turns into a day trade that turns into a swing trade. If it keeps going your way then you can hang onto it for very little initial risk. In this way perhaps you make use of several time frames to your advantage, zooming and scaling out as the trade keeps running.

We should have many tools in our box and scalping is just one of them. It is ideally suited to some conditions, suboptimal in others. I am not a system trader with rigidly defined entry / exit criteria (though I do of course follow some rules) so I have some freedom to sniff the air as the day unfolds and adjust my approach accordingly. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't (the result of a partially developed discretionary method). So one day I feel like an idiot scratching for 10 pips against the trend on a 200+ up day. On others I will hold 2 lots long with the morning trend, while scalping countertrend shorts on the pullbacks until it reverses down after lunch and I can run the last scalp as a swing trade and switch to countertrend long scalps. Those days feel good. :)

I actually rather like working and putting in screen time, but I am probably sufficiently young, simple and green to find the daily challenge of bar-watching and pushing buttons a fascinating, novel and satisfactory way to spend the day. Each day is different and at the start of one I have no idea of the trades I will make. Besides I figure the more of it I get under my belt now the easier and more profitable it will be to step back later in life. Screen time is the best way I can find of learning about market behaviour so it's an investment gladly made.

To answer your question, my nature is such that I find short term trading a lot easier and more productive than swing or position trading, but am occasionally pleased when a shorty grows up into a swing.

Sorry wasp you wanted banter and got a tedious disquisition instead. :)
 
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Cheers Frugi, interesting stuff.

Jimbo57, great attitude. How about they just close the website down because nothing ever new appears here for discussion as the site has been going for 5+ years. Maybe as new members come along various topics reappear. I thought this trading community was meant for discussions and banter but none ever happens because old members slate everything new. If its all pointless and been covered why don't you just leave?


EDIT: (next post) You put it so much better Frugi :cheesy:
 
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I don't think it's a pointless discussion jimbo though it has certainly been oft discussed. Granted repetition is rife on the site but then so it is on all trading sites as the scope of topics pertaining to the mechanical aspects of trading are actually rather narrow and only so much depth can be achieved on a forum, while the continual influx of new blood to the markets perpetuates a cycle of similar questions and answers. Human nature sadly also ensures the pointless and unsavoury aspects you mention.

That said, what can be quite interesting is seeing how the answers vary depending on the length of time the respondant has spent in the markets and indeed how one's own views change in regard to what may initially appear as stale discussions. I feel it is my pleasure and duty to keep learning as a trader and one can be pleasantly surprised by new angles and insights to topics previously thought to be nailed down and gathering mould.
 
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a few years ago i had this conversation about what is best scalping or swing trading with my friend/mentor whom has been trading for nearly 30yrs his simplistic answer was 'think like a scalper trade like a swing trader'
basically meaning keep your stop tight but let it ride when you are on a winner
i swing trade and scalp sometimes its hard to do both but when it comes together its the sweetest feeling

Andy
 
Dear Frugi , totally agree with you , surely the more profitable trades you do the less risk of losing you run , in fact the guy who will be running most risk is someone who loses all time, risk from world events is probably related most closely to time exposed in mkts and margin ( and maybe TIMES i.e. during the day as opposed to night) , and again as such intraday traders are generally probably in the mkt less, in my case say 10 or 20 trades lasting just a few minutes each , but if a trade non intraday i tend to be exposed 100% of the time in one particular stock or another. P.S. a study was done comparing the risk of buying bonds when compared with buy and hold in stocks , you'd think bonds far safer ( which they were initially), but after just a couple years or so the returns on stocks were such that the risk of loss became far less than with bonds!!
 
frugi said:
I don't think it's a pointless discussion jimbo though it has certainly been oft discussed. Granted repetition is rife on the site but then so it is on all trading sites as the scope of topics pertaining to the mechanical aspects of trading are actually rather narrow and only so much depth can be achieved on a forum, while the continual influx of new blood to the markets perpetuates a cycle of similar questions and answers. Human nature sadly also ensures the pointless and unsavoury aspects you mention.

That said, what can be quite interesting is seeing how the answers vary depending on the length of time the respondant has spent in the markets and indeed how one's own views change in regard to what may initially appear as stale discussions. I feel it is my pleasure and duty to keep learning as a trader and one can be pleasantly surprised by new angles and insights to topics previously thought to be nailed down and gathering mould.
Precisely, quite so.
 
Again quite so, so many poster's go on about money management and consider searching for the holy grail naive and stupid . While i'm not suggesting there is a holy grail the single most important thing you need by a factor of approximately a million is a truly profitable trade , if you believe money management will get you there take it to the roulette wheel. But if this search for the holy takes our trades from 6 out of 10 winners to 7, then you have a real chance of success .
 
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