Mentor educating the unteachable

This is a discussion on Mentor educating the unteachable within the General Trading Chat forums, part of the Reception category; I would say a lot depends on the level of skill the trader is seeking or is actually aware of. ...

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Old Oct 28, 2010, 11:33pm   #11
Joined Jun 2007
Re: Mentor educating the unteachable

I would say a lot depends on the level of skill the trader is seeking or is actually aware of. Most coaches cover the same basic stuff and for most this is an inroad to trading and will suffice in the early days. Later some will define and know what level they need to go further and go on searching themselves as there may not be many available at that level. This is where the search for the holy grail begins, there are actually very few coaches who can take a struggling trader to success. I think the results speak for themselves.

Most coaches teach the same material, just packaged differently. The slightly better ones can help you alter your approach.

There will definitely be questions that a trader will ask a coach about the market,analysis that he cannot answer, because he does not know it himself.
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 12:25am   #12
 
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Re: Mentor educating the unteachable

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Originally Posted by Citizen2007 View Post
Most coaches teach the same material, just packaged differently. The slightly better ones can help you alter your approach.

There will definitely be questions that a trader will ask a coach about the market,analysis that he cannot answer, because he does not know it himself.
Good coaching, like good teaching require a similar skill set. One of the key differences is the student to teacher/coach ratio.

A good coach/teacher will
  1. have the ability to spot weaknesses in the student's knowledge and skills.
  2. develop a customized plane based on the student's capability and personality.
  3. have the ability to erase what he/she knows long enough to understand the key concept the student is missing that causes the the question or causes the student to come to a wrong conclusion.
  4. when asked the same question will answer it differently rather than louder.
  5. have a set of tasks, drills and thought experiments that will strengthen the student's knowledge or performance.
  6. effectively use the didactic process to engage the student in discovering the answers to important concepts.
  7. know when he/she has done good when the student performs better on his/her own.
  8. know when he/she has done well when the student recommends the coach/teacher to other students.

Last edited by HowardCohodas; Oct 29, 2010 at 12:31am.
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 12:40am   #13
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Re: Mentor educating the unteachable

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Originally Posted by MrGecko View Post
The ability to teach is a skill in and of itself, and the people that have this ability in spades should be appreciated for their talents.

Teachers are not a homogenous group of failures in their respective field.
Very well said.

Peter
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 3:48am   #14
 
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Re: Mentor educating the unteachable

I guess this depends on the trading method.

Someone that isn't profitable could teach you about MACDs, crossovers, exchanges, options etc. etc.

None of this would make you profitable.

In my quest, I paid 3 people for training. 1 of them couldn't trade (although he had an ego the size of a house) and was of no use at all. He was also the most expensive. The other 2 could trade, they understood the nuances of their method. They could answer questions. They could show examples & tell you what was going through their head at the time.

Perhaps the particular area of trading I went into was different from others. I can say hand on heart that if you cannot trade this way, it would be impossible for you to teach it. It requires you to have been there and done it before you could impart knowledge of the experience.

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Originally Posted by MrGecko View Post
I mean, I had a Maths teacher that I was particularly fond of... but what, I should ignore what she says because she hasn't won the Fields medal? Is a student only capable of matching their teachers level of achievement?
I understand this view. The thing is - we don't need the BEST trader to teach us. We need a proficient trader. We don't need an award winner, we just need to avoid the failures, the sim traders and the never-traded.

Whilst we are doing analogies. Would we expect someone well versed in driving theory but with no actual practice to teach us how to drive ?

Anyway - I can say hand on heart that for what I do, experience is the first pre-requisite in being able to teach the methods. The second is empathy and the third is the ability to teach.
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 3:50am   #15
 
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Re: Mentor educating the unteachable

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Originally Posted by MrGecko View Post
Teachers are not a homogenous group of failures in their respective field.
Indeed - but how many maths teachers do you know that can't do addition ?
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Old Oct 30, 2010, 2:09am   #16
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Re: Mentor educating the unteachable

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Originally Posted by oildaytrader View Post
How can a mentor who has not made any money from trading be coaching others?How can he prepare a trader's mindset to deal with fear and greed, and dealing with a losing period based on the mentor's method /trading system failure?How can he prepare the trader for failure of technical analysis and failure of technical set ups?

How can he prepare somebody to be profitable,when mentor relies on trading education for any profit?
find a few on this site promoting their courses but only revealing a few trades that work and barely hinting at the entire strat...but you can find more if you go to their website mind

The bit I don't agree with is I suspect some say they trade for a living and sell courses when they're not making any money. Doesn;t mean you can't learn from the course but it's deceiving from the beginning. Some FX sites charge $200+ for courses, other come on here to promote £1,000+ courses - must be a lucrative business.
When do you start teaching ODT?

I have great difficulty believing that a successful trader would charge for courses apart from to relieve boredom or at least reduce their own commissions. It's simply not human nature to be altruistic. They are selling for the reason of pleasing themself whether that be boredom, money, commission reduction, controlling one's own trading by teaching and solidifying understanding, etc.
Anyone teaching who really doesn't care about the money also reveals their trades in the open. Those doing it for money hide a large part of their methodology and are somewhat cryptic about the methods they apply.

Last edited by SanMiguel; Oct 30, 2010 at 7:27pm.
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 3:13pm   #17
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Re: Mentor educating the unteachable

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Originally Posted by oildaytrader View Post
How can a mentor who has not made any money from trading be coaching others?How can he prepare a trader's mindset to deal with fear and greed, and dealing with a losing period based on the mentor's method /trading system failure?How can he prepare the trader for failure of technical analysis and failure of technical set ups?

How can he prepare somebody to be profitable,when mentor relies on trading education for any profit?
How can someone who doesn't actually trade offer up so much advice to those who do?
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 3:37pm   #18
 
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Re: Mentor educating the unteachable

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanMiguel View Post
I have great difficulty believing that a successful trader would charge for courses apart from to relieve boredom or at least reduce their own commissions. It's simply not human nature to be altruistic. They are selling for the reason of pleasing themself whether that be boredom, money, commission reduction, controlling one's own trading by teaching and solidifying understanding, etc.
Anyone teaching who really doesn't care about the money also reveals their trades in the open. Those doing it for money hide a large part of their methodology and are somewhat cryptic about the methods they apply.
You seem to know a different set of people than I do or you don't have insight into the motives of the people you know.

I know lots of people who not only sell courses, but also offer quite a bit of free help. I believe in the Learn-Earn-Return approach to life. The proportion of your time you devote to each of these changes as we get older. Some never see the benefit to themselves or to others of the Return part.

Many people charge for their courses so that they can Return both time and money. I know of one very successful Educator-Trainer-Coach who uses a lot of the money he earns to sponsor micro-loans in third world countries. Micro-loans is one of the most successful programs that not only gets people out of poverty without charity, but has proven to be a great program for the empowerment of women.
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 3:56pm   #19
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Re: Mentor educating the unteachable

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Originally Posted by HowardCohodas View Post
You seem to know a different set of people than I do or you don't have insight into the motives of the people you know.

I know lots of people who not only sell courses, but also offer quite a bit of free help. I believe in the Learn-Earn-Return approach to life. The proportion of your time you devote to each of these changes as we get older. Some never see the benefit to themselves or to others of the Return part.

Many people charge for their courses so that they can Return both time and money. I know of one very successful Educator-Trainer-Coach who uses a lot of the money he earns to sponsor micro-loans in third world countries. Micro-loans is one of the most successful programs that not only gets people out of poverty without charity, but has proven to be a great program for the empowerment of women.
So, you're kind of a Robin Hood are you? Learn, take money off other people in the markets, and then return it to other people?
I'm not suggesting that Kiva (I assume that's what you're on about) isn't a good idea but what would be the benefit to the educator in a learn-earn-return world - something has to benefit them even if it's just that they get a warm glow from doing something that they think is good.
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 8:19pm   #20
 
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Re: Mentor educating the unteachable

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanMiguel View Post
I have great difficulty believing that a successful trader would charge for courses apart from to relieve boredom or at least reduce their own commissions. It's simply not human nature to be altruistic.
it is human nature to be altrustic, but this is why it's very dangerous.

people get a thrill out of wanting to be the florence nightingale of trading and help everyone and answer every question and post in every thread and start trading schools, which would be fine except 99% of people who are compelled to do these sorts of things don't have the experience or skill to back it and this causes many arguments and much grief.

the road to hell is paved with good intentions, some people scam for greed and some people scam because of their altruism, execept the latter won't think of themselves as scamming, but in reality it's exactly what they are doing.

personally i don't know why anyone would help ANYONE from a game theory type perspective, since it makes no sense to help an opponent in a zero sum game, unless you are trying to mislead them.
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