Capitalism

This is a discussion on Capitalism within the The Foyer forums, part of the Off the Grid category; Originally Posted by Pat494 The above is the reason that economies are mixed. Still some incentive but a safety net ...

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Old Jul 16, 2015, 4:51pm   #376
 
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Originally Posted by Pat494 View Post
The above is the reason that economies are mixed. Still some incentive but a safety net for the unemployed.
The above statement is the reason why capitalism is not mixed with socialism. It is the antithesis of socialism. The unemployed do not need an indefinite safety net. All of the things you keep mentioning are privileges, not rights.

I also find it funny that @postman went from bashing capitalism to an article or anecdote that completely supports unadulterated capitalism.
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Old Jul 16, 2015, 6:45pm   #377
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The above statement is the reason why capitalism is not mixed with socialism. It is the antithesis of socialism. The unemployed do not need an indefinite safety net. All of the things you keep mentioning are privileges, not rights.

I also find it funny that @postman went from bashing capitalism to an article or anecdote that completely supports unadulterated capitalism.
Hi hhiusa

The fact that you look upon Socialism as a complete opposite of Capitalism is maybe one of the most important reasons they have to be used together to get a social balance.

Its the Yin and the Yang

Wise countries regulate to try and obtain the correct balance.

Maybe you could tell me the best country at doing it ?

You may think its the US - they do have a balance and you and n_t have been showing it with some examples.

We all know Greece just did not have the correct balance.

All the rich multi millionaire business owners ( Capitalists ) just got away not paying their fair share back into the Greek economy - for years they have got away with maybe only paying a fifth of the tax they should have done.

Then all the government and state employees just demanded too much - retirement at 50 - over 23% of population worked for state - efficient countries aim for under 12% - the lower the better

So you had the Capitalists doing the economy - but also the Socialists doing the same

Result - an inefficient economy that would have already gone bankrupt without the past help of the EU.

To achieve a good mix of capitalism and socialism you need a strong referee - or government . They need to be like a good boss themselves - not frightened of using the "stick" but rewarding those who deserve it with the "carrot"

Instead they reward all their government workers and to get away with it - they turn a blind eye to 93% of all citizens under declaring their incomes on their tax returns.

A weak government - can you imagine your favourite Lady Maggie Thatcher allowing that - no way.

For a government to get respect from it citizens - its needs to be seen to be unbias - fair - strong - uncorrupt - hard working - cost saving - innovative - ground breaking - etc etc

Unfortunately - not many of those around - Can Hilary Clinton be another Maggie or Merkel - because Donald Trump only does "me me me" - and that will just not be good enough for what the US need for the next decade

Regards


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Old Jul 16, 2015, 7:09pm   #378
 
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I love these stories, theyre almost always made up.


"An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that socialism worked well since no one would be poor and no one would be rich, thus providing a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on the Socialist plan".... All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they likewise studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one was motivated to study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward (and risk) is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will work really hard to succeed.

Could not be any simpler than that. (Please pass this on)

These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. Where does this happen?

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. This reminds me of the old feudal system no?

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. Lands were given to Barons by decree yes by the King who took it from the people.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it! Hoarding wealth doesn't produce wealth either nor does interest.

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation. This I agree with but it's a case of 95% working for the lazy 5% who have control of Capital and Land. Poor man's only got his Labour



Can you think of a reason for not sharing this? "
Yes it's SPAM...


The reader is led like bull with a ring through it's nose.

Don't wish to work through the whole lot but point 4 for example...

If there are 9 people with not much and 1 person with a great deal you can multiply wealth and create more of it yes.

For example, no matter whether one person has homes in NY, London, Paris or Tokyo; he can only live in one of them at a time. Whether he has 100 fast sport cars he can only drive one at a time.

By better distribution of wealth and facilitating the 9 workers by giving them a fair wage, who in our good world, will lead them to raise a decent well fed family, who's one child may get to university, study medical practice and find a cure for cancer and cure the wealthy chap in his old age who might be about to die from catching skin cancer having spent too much time on his yatch.

Hoarding of wealth and living off interest does not produce anything.

Societies where incomes are more equally distributed are usually more happy than ones where they are skewed and labour is abused and exploited.


On the other hand if it is trying to highlight the free rider problem alone then yes I agree with it.


Everyone associates socialism with equality which is a load of rubbish.


Objective should be for an Efficient Economic system with Equitable distribution of rewards. Not equal distribution.


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Old Jul 16, 2015, 7:42pm   #379
 
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Hoarding of wealth and living off interest does not produce anything.
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Saving

To increase production, man must form capital. To create it, he must restrict his consumption and transfer his labour for that period to producing immediately-satisfying consumers’ goods.

The restriction of consumption is called saving, and the transfer of labour and land to the formation of capital goods is called investment.

In a modern economy, large amounts of saved money are usually not hoarded, but rather are used to fund establishment and expansion of business operations.
I bet Atilla thinks that the money banks loan out comes from a magical printing press so therefore nobody needs to save! Perhaps he actually believes (and it wouldn't surprise me) that the money rich people are 'hoarding' in the bank is actually kept in a shoebox, in a safe, with the rich man's name and a sign on it saying "Don't touch"

After reading Atilla's idiotic post, does anyone here think he understands that savers are CREDITORS to a bank? I'd say he hasn't got the foggiest idea...and he is allegedly a trader and investor...would you trust him with your money after reading what he wrote?

As far as I'm concerned, the rest of Atilla's bizarre post has been discredited by this display of absolute IGNORANCE of basic economics! It really is the MOST retarded left wing logic so far.
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Old Jul 16, 2015, 7:46pm   #380
 
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Originally Posted by hhiusa View Post
The above statement is the reason why capitalism is not mixed with socialism. It is the antithesis of socialism. The unemployed do not need an indefinite safety net. All of the things you keep mentioning are privileges, not rights.

I also find it funny that @postman went from bashing capitalism to an article or anecdote that completely supports unadulterated capitalism.
I find it sad that you have previously referenced Plato who was best know for his Republic, and yet you advocate Capitalism. You seem to treat scholars' ideals like a pick and mix counter when it suits you and yet give the appearance of being inflexible on others.

You have obviously read other peoples books, but dont have the wisdom to understand how they fit into the real world. Your immaturity will be you downfall.
Good luck trading Mr Market with your inflexible attitude.
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Old Jul 16, 2015, 8:13pm   #381
 
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Originally Posted by new_trader View Post
I bet Atilla thinks that the money banks loan out comes from a magical printing press so therefore nobody needs to save! Perhaps he actually believes (and it wouldn't surprise me) that the money rich people are 'hoarding' in the bank is actually kept in a shoebox, in a safe, with the rich man's name and a sign on it saying "Don't touch"

After reading Atilla's idiotic post, does anyone here think he understands that savers are CREDITORS to a bank? I'd say he hasn't got the foggiest idea...and he is allegedly a trader and investor...would you trust him with your money after reading what he wrote?

As far as I'm concerned, the rest of Atilla's bizarre post has been discredited by this display of absolute IGNORANCE of basic economics! It really is the MOST retarded left wing logic so far.

Replied with simple terms to simple leading post.

The key fundamental point you miss is a more equitable (not equal) distribution of income leads to better functioning and happier society for all to live and breath in.

A more caring one where if you have a heart attack on the street, you will not get pick pocketed but first aid administered.

You also fail to appreciate the dynamics of micro and macro economics coupled with a balanced economy with agriculture, manufacturing and service sectors.


I also don't want or need other people's money thanks have enough of my own.

Prepared to pay my fair taxes too as I am indebted and grateful for Her Majesty's Government and the NHS for where I am today.


Now sod off and do something useful like sticking your head up your ****
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Old Jul 16, 2015, 8:36pm   #382
 
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I find it sad that you have previously referenced Plato who was best know for his Republic, and yet you advocate Capitalism. You seem to treat scholars' ideals like a pick and mix counter when it suits you and yet give the appearance of being inflexible on others.

You have obviously read other peoples books, but dont have the wisdom to understand how they fit into the real world. Your immaturity will be you downfall.
Good luck trading Mr Market with your inflexible attitude.
It is not a pick and mix counter. Only the Kumbaya group hug club would fail to see the fallacy of composition that you have committed. Just because some parts of Plato do not argue for capitalism or argue for some socialist principles does not mean that everything he wrote or subscribed to was about socialism. I recognize that Plato had some good ideas. I do not have to throw the baby out with bath water just because some of his ideas have socialist properties. The lot of you are acting more black and white as F would say than I am. You are a creating a false dilemma.

Do you not realize that the anecdote you posted was completely pro capitalism, even if you acted in jest.
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Old Jul 16, 2015, 8:41pm   #383
 
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Originally Posted by Atilla View Post
Replied with simple terms to simple leading post.

The key fundamental point you miss is a more equitable (not equal) distribution of income leads to better functioning and happier society for all to live and breath in.

A more caring one where if you have a heart attack on the street, you will not get pick pocketed but first aid administered.

You also fail to appreciate the dynamics of micro and macro economics coupled with a balanced economy with agriculture, manufacturing and service sectors.


I also don't want or need other people's money thanks have enough of my own.

Prepared to pay my fair taxes too as I am indebted and grateful for Her Majesty's Government and the NHS for where I am today.


Now sod off and do something useful like sticking your head up your ****
What on earth are you talking about, AGAIN?

"Blah, blah, blah, economics, blah, blah, blah, manufacturing"

Bullshіt baffles brains is your tactic isn't it? Write complete gibberish mixed in with some economic jargon and hope that whoever is reading it knows just 5% less about economics than you, right?

I have an answer for you:

To attain safe and stable flight, the cross sectional area of an aircrafts wing must be 1.75 times the wingspan multiplied by the drag coefficient at cruising speed. This is necessary to overcome the dynamics of the downward force of gravity. But, in order to safely calculate the true carrying capacity, the effect of Bernoulli's principle on the wings aerofoil shape and angle of attack must be properly accounted for. As a consequence, Capitalism is better than Socialism.
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Old Jul 16, 2015, 8:43pm   #384
 
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Originally Posted by Atilla View Post
Replied with simple terms to simple leading post.

The key fundamental point you miss is a more equitable (not equal) distribution of income leads to better functioning and happier society for all to live and breath in.

A more caring one where if you have a heart attack on the street, you will not get pick pocketed but first aid administered.

You also fail to appreciate the dynamics of micro and macro economics coupled with a balanced economy with agriculture, manufacturing and service sectors.


I also don't want or need other people's money thanks have enough of my own.

Prepared to pay my fair taxes too as I am indebted and grateful for Her Majesty's Government and the NHS for where I am today.
This is so typical of you. You think you can refute people's assertions with an appeal to emotion. You think @new_trader's ideas are flawed because he is supposedly heartless. He does not have to be kind to understand capitalism. I am sure you are grateful to the NHS and her Majesty's government since they provide you with a free lunch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atilla View Post
Now sod off and do something useful like sticking your head up your ****
You always throw a tantrum and write obscenities when it is clear you have nothing intelligent to say and have lost the argument.

Bernoulli principle and flight
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old Jul 16, 2015, 8:46pm   #385
 
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Originally Posted by new_trader View Post
What on earth are you talking about, AGAIN?

"Blah, blah, blah, economics, blah, blah, blah, manufacturing"

Bullshіt baffles brains is your tactic isn't it? Write complete gibberish mixed in with some economic jargon and hope that whoever is reading it knows just 5% less about economics than you, right?

I have an answer for you:

To attain safe and stable flight, the cross sectional area of an aircrafts wing must be 1.75 times the wingspan multiplied by the drag coefficient at cruising speed. This is necessary to overcome the dynamics of the downward force of gravity. But, in order to safely calculate the true carrying capacity, the effect of Bernoulli's principle on the wings aerofoil shape and angle of attack must be properly accounted for. As a consequence, Capitalism is better than Socialism NO IT IS NOT!.

Now you have your head up your ****, tell me what you smell?

Was obviously a mistake trying to explain anything to you.

Mixed economy is the best of both worlds. Now learn to deal with it.
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Old Jul 16, 2015, 8:53pm   #386
 
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Now you have your head up your ****, tell me what you smell?

Was obviously a mistake trying to explain anything to you.

Mixed economy is the best of both worlds. Now learn to deal with it.
How pathetic. What are you, 12? Learn to deal with it, is not an argument, it is something a spoiled child would say. It sounds like you need to deal with some issues concerning capitalism and many other things. You seem to blow up a great deal at people in this forum. I think you have some temper issues to work through.
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Old Jul 16, 2015, 8:58pm   #387
 
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@new_trader

We should have a conservation where we will not have to deal with Mr. temper and F and P.
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Old Jul 16, 2015, 8:59pm   #388
 
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We should have a conversation where we will not have to deal with Mr. temper and F and P.
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Old Jul 16, 2015, 9:04pm   #389
 
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It is not a pick and mix counter. Only the Kumbaya group hug club would fail to see the fallacy of composition that you have committed. Just because some parts of Plato do not argue for capitalism or argue for some socialist principles does not mean that everything he wrote or subscribed to was about socialism. I recognize that Plato had some good ideas. I do not have to throw the baby out with bath water just because some of his ideas have socialist properties. The lot of you are acting more black and white as F would say than I am. You are a creating a false dilemma.

Do you not realize that the anecdote you posted was completely pro capitalism, even if you acted in jest.
So let me get this straight YOU get to decide which of Platos works were good or bad and just use the ones that agree with your argument. Conceit beyond belief.
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Old Jul 16, 2015, 9:07pm   #390
 
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So let me get this straight YOU get to decide which of Platos works were good or bad and just use the ones that agree with your argument. Conceit beyond belief.
What is really pathetic and stupid is that you are showing extreme gullibility and implying that you agree with everything someone says. It is all or nothing with you. That is truly frightening.
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