Starting a graduate career in Trading....Help please!

Ok, so this is my first post...hopefully in the right section!

I have previously graduted from King's College London in Biomedical Sciences , and have just passed my MSc in Management (as i didnt like my first degree).

I have always been told i have a business sense of mind etc etc which is why i done this MSc. Now i have been told by many friends etc that trading is a good (but hard) field to get into as a graduate. I must admit, i dont have very high UCAS points but they are not poor either (19 points). I only got a 2.2 in my first degree but have done really well in my MSc.

So now there a million sites on trading etc and i just found this forum. I want to know the very basics of what goes on etc etc (at a novice level) so that i can grasp some understanding of what goes on in the trading world. I know there are various devisions on trading but just wanted any advice on preferred sub sectors of trading.

Having only a basic financial background, it is proving to be hard to get any responses from any cover letters i have wrote etc, so just wanted sadvice on any suggestions. I know i could prove myself etc but i need to get some doors open in the first place......

Kindest regards, look foward to your comments

do you intend starting trading for yourself from a screen, or do you mean you want to trade for a firm?

MartinD said:

do you intend starting trading for yourself from a screen, or do you mean you want to trade for a firm?

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ah sorry, i mean trade for a firm.....working for a company and getting trained etc! also, is london the best place for this?

Hi,

You've defiantly come to the right place. I would start looking at the threads in the first steps forum, which you obviously have and also read up in the trading for a living forum. There is also another website called elitetrader.com which you might want to have a look at.

By the looks of things you've probably got two choices when it comes to which direction you want to go down. The first one is the investment bank route, which I dont really know a lot about. The second choice is the trading arcades. At the arcades you will be backed financially and given some basic training. Then you try and prove yourself in the markets. After costs you receive a profit split either 50/50 or 60/40. There are good and bad arcades and you'll find lots about them in the trading for a living forum. Arcades generally trade STIR (short term interest rates) such as EURIBOR or government bonds such as the german Bund.

Have a read around and then come back with your questions, people on these boards are generally a lot more helpful if you do a bit more research yourself. Hopefully the above will set you in the right direction.

Michael

im2funky said:

Ok, so this is my first post...hopefully in the right section!


I have always been told i have a business sense of mind etc etc which is why i done this MSc. Now i have been told by many friends etc that trading is a good (but hard) field to get into as a graduate. I must admit, i dont have very high UCAS points but they are not poor either (19 points). I only got a 2.2 in my first degree but have done really well in my MSc.

So now there a million sites on trading etc and i just found this forum. I want to know the very basics of what goes on etc etc (at a novice level) so that i can grasp some understanding of what goes on in the trading world. I know there are various devisions on trading but just wanted any advice on preferred sub sectors of trading.

Having only a basic financial background, it is proving to be hard to get any responses from any cover letters i have wrote etc, so just wanted sadvice on any suggestions. I know i could prove myself etc but i need to get some doors open in the first place......

Kindest regards, look foward to your comments

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Firstly, welcome Im2funky,

I think you are making the right steps by asking for advice. Firstly you need to ask your self is this really what you want to do, I see your friends think it is a good field to work in but what do you feel, what things really interest you.

There are some excellent financial career sites here in the UK . One I am thinking of in particular is www.efinancialcareers.com. This is an excellent site with far more than just jobs.
It has an excellent 'Day in the life of.....' section where people who work in the financial sector talk you through a typical day at work, what they like and dislike etc, many of them are graduates and juniors, I think it would be an interesting read for someone like you. It also has a very large graduate recruiting section for all major investment banks etc .

Also look at major recruiters in the City, like Morgan McKinley, Joslin Rowe, Witan Jardine etc, get their numbers from the web call them and ask to speak to whoever deals with graduates ( it sounds like you have sound qualifications so be confident) , give them the low down on yourself and what you are aiming for and ask for their advise and see what options present them selves.

Start fooling around with a forex demo account and see if this kind of thing is for you. Read the financial pages and pick up some trading books. Another good source is to read the guides prepared by experienced guys here on T2W at the beginning of each forum sector ie options , forex, futures etc.To really be good at this game you have to love it. If you find that basis stuff like that is a chore then maybe it is not for you after all.

I hope this helps and I really wish you well.

cheers

ERA

Arcades imo are for more experienced traders ideally because the training isn't (in general - there may be exceptions) that great or structured. If you don't think you will stand much chance getting into a bank (even if you wanted that - very slow progress from entry level) - i would go for a highly reputed prop firm or a hedge fund. 2 i'd recommend are Optiver and GLG respectively. With Optiver - you're thrown into a trading posn (no 1-year clerking BS!) but with a great back up from very talented traders.

Good Luck

Thank you for all your comments! I am going through various terms etc on this site - and can say this site is the best so far in terms of good info. I have tried searching for jobs etc but just wondered if anyone knew any other agencies etc that i could try in the meantime?

Trading seems more like boxing than a job.Black eyes are hard to avoid.I started trading. in April of this year. I feel blessed to still be in business. Remember every dollar or pound you make ,someone else lost. I am up 20% so far ,but I was up 100% earlier this year. I am not trading with a whole lot of money. It seems it usually takes a couple of weeks to profit in something. Then it gets taken back in one or two days. It's brutal out here. This is a whole different business with YOUR money on the line.
Good luck, and God Bless

im2funky said:

Thank you for all your comments! I am going through various terms etc on this site - and can say this site is the best so far in terms of good info. I have tried searching for jobs etc but just wondered if anyone knew any other agencies etc that i could try in the meantime?

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im2funky,

If you decide that you want to work for an Investment Bank, then you will really need to understand the entire recruitment process and understand exactly what they are looking for and how best to demonstrate your skills.

I can recommend that you take a look at the website below whhch is a link to a company which specialises in coaching graduates who wish to work in Investment Banking. It is run by a former Goldman Sachs Director.

Take a look at:

http://www.harrisoncareers.com/investment_banking.htm

hey guys thanks for the advice. ive been again reading stuff on the site and have been taking notes. if im honest i dont think i will get into one of the large investmentt banks straight away so may have to apply to a smaller firm to get some experience etc. I cant reall y afford to pay someone to look at covering letters and CV's as I pretty much support myself at the moment.

i need a job to get some finance experience - is it even worth me seeking any unpaid workexperince etc?

im2funky said:

hey guys thanks for the advice. ive been again reading stuff on the site and have been taking notes. if im honest i dont think i will get into one of the large investmentt banks straight away so may have to apply to a smaller firm to get some experience etc. I cant reall y afford to pay someone to look at covering letters and CV's as I pretty much support myself at the moment.

i need a job to get some finance experience - is it even worth me seeking any unpaid workexperince etc?

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you dont need to pay anyone to do your cv / cl . its certainly not rocket science. honesty and common sense will get you far. entry level grad - 1 page cv more than enough. remember traders are used to/insist upon very short lines of communication - no bs. tap all concievable contacts to get an interview - be creative - check out prop firms websites and simply call the telephone number listed. (don't bother sending random e-mails with your cv - waste of time).prepare a sharp 30 second intro to make an impact. remember a good person is potential money to the firm - they need you!! if you make an impact, they will want to see you. but.. do your homework - know some basics , know the mkt levels maybe have a few trading ideas to reel off. and above all

don't be shy!!

Good luck to you but I would tend to agree that a lot more homework is needed before you will stand out from a very large crowd. HOWEVER you have found the place to ask all the questions you need. There are some great people who post/read here who have more experience with the city/trading than I could ever dream of!

binsley said:

you dont need to pay anyone to do your cv / cl . its certainly not rocket science. honesty and common sense will get you far. entry level grad - 1 page cv more than enough. remember traders are used to/insist upon very short lines of communication - no bs. tap all concievable contacts to get an interview - be creative - check out prop firms websites and simply call the telephone number listed. (don't bother sending random e-mails with your cv - waste of time).prepare a sharp 30 second intro to make an impact. remember a good person is potential money to the firm - they need you!! if you make an impact, they will want to see you. but.. do your homework - know some basics , know the mkt levels maybe have a few trading ideas to reel off. and above all

don't be shy!!

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ah thanks for that, i guess im shy as im new to this field, and hence i am scared of making a prat out of myself. but i will take all advice on board.

Thanks

GammaJammer said:

Im2funky - I think Binsley nailed it with the last sentence. Know some market levels and have some trading ideas. Basically without that, I think you're going to get exactly nowhere. There will be tons of people out there looking for the same job as you who've actually done something about it.

I don't want to seem overly critical but from your posts in this thread I've seen nothing that would convince me to interview you if I were hiring a graduate trainee. I'd look solely for people who have done a bit of homework about the markets, as that ability to be a self starter and take some control of your own destiny, I feel, is like gold dust in market entrants these days.

All the young trainee traders that I know who have done well over the last few years have had that spark and they've all demonstrated extra desire, acquiring some of the necessary knowledge BEFORE even writing their CVs. Pretty much all first degrees, and the majority of postgraduate qualifications are, imho, worth diddly squat these days, partly because of the hugely increased number of people who actually have them relative to 10 years or so ago, and partly because of the knock-on effect this has had on University teaching quality (especially at undergrad level).

I have a BsC and a masters-equivalent postgrad certificate and I don't think I'd get hired nowadays. Maybe to the middle or back office but probably not as a trader.

Hope you take this in the spirit it's meant. Do some homework and you've got a shot. If you have market related questions, this is a great place to ask them. There are some very decent traders posting on T2W and some very helpful people. Sometimes they're one and the same ;-)

Good luck

GJ

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Well Said!!

and one more - what do u thinks gonna make you a good trader? do you know what makes a good trader? If you haven't got this one nailed then more hw required ie reading - and lots of it. market wizards (schwager) is a good one to start - do you see any of those guys in yourself?

gl

gamma is right , other factors notwithstanding , 1st degrees are didly squat as he said.

this applies more to the fin. world , where I think our friend with a 1st degree and a masters may well be better suited to the back office , which in my opinion would be BETTER than the trading room , and he may learn more about actual trading than in the dealing room.

strange but true.

wisestguy said:

gamma is right , other factors notwithstanding , 1st degrees are didly squat as he said.

this applies more to the fin. world , where I think our friend with a 1st degree and a masters may well be better suited to the back office , which in my opinion would be BETTER than the trading room , and he may learn more about actual trading than in the dealing room.

strange but true.

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some very odd opinions wisestguy.
- education is seldom a disadvantage in life when looking to progress. that said i hear the comments on what sort of education is required to be hired as a trader these days.
- back office work is clerical and demanding in only the very driest of senses.
- preparation is one thing but an individual can't learn much about trading without actually doing it.

i say this from my experience of a grad program and work in 4 IBs.
im2funky, i would echo the sentiments of GJ's recent post.

odd = contrarian and that I am . I that as a compliment .

education these days is , as said a didley squat exercise , when factoring in the time and COSTS .
educational quality today is very dubious indeed , given that most Unis are on the verge of bankruptcy and will take any fool , so long as the cash is right . let's face it .

banks and IB's don't trade in the pure sense , they are big risk takers and their parameters are a lot wider than what I would consider real traders - wizards etc.

if they are so great - ask yourself the question : how come out of 20+ of the traders in MW 1 & 2 , only 1 guy was with a bank ?

we have been through this , suffice to say , if pure trading is what you want then avoid the banks and IBs

if not then go for it , but you'll have to play the paper chase game , so perhaps for his qualificatins BO is not so bad , he can always peek and stick his nose into the dealing room every now and then and take the **** out of the traders .

always a fun thing.

wisestguy said:

odd = contrarian and that I am . I that as a compliment .

education these days is , as said a didley squat exercise , when factoring in the time and COSTS .
educational quality today is very dubious indeed , given that most Unis are on the verge of bankruptcy and will take any fool , so long as the cash is right . let's face it .

banks and IB's don't trade in the pure sense , they are big risk takers and their parameters are a lot wider than what I would consider real traders - wizards etc.

if they are so great - ask yourself the question : how come out of 20+ of the traders in MW 1 & 2 , only 1 guy was with a bank ?

we have been through this , suffice to say , if pure trading is what you want then avoid the banks and IBs

if not then go for it , but you'll have to play the paper chase game , so perhaps for his qualificatins BO is not so bad , he can always peek and stick his nose into the dealing room every now and then and take the **** out of the traders .

always a fun thing.

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Given the title of this thread, why are you participating?

Seeing as the markets are quiet....

1. Education - where's the proof to back up your opinion?
2. IB & Trading - what do the thousands of sales traders, sector traders and prop traders employed by banks do then? What does the bank do as an entity?
3. Market Wizards & the lack of IB traders - the reason for this is simple. In compiling his list of interesting traders to talk to, Schwager started by looking at CTA returns. Bank traders don't publically publish their results and so wouldn't appear in CTA returns data. There are some great traders out there on the sellside. Your opinions suggest you don't know what you are talking about. And not for the first time.

I will say no more.

GammaJammer said:

Other market related jobs pay increasingly well as banks recognise the fact that there is a need for highly skilled people in key support positions. Market risk , compliance and middle office functions all pay very well for good people, and the work is usually floor based. You get the buzz and involvement, often with a base salary that stacks up very well against the traders.

GJ

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Not to mention dealers. i heard of an execution only dealer for an investment house getting 150k + bonus. execution only!!!! no risk , very little thinking/skill required (only downside probably have to get pi**** a few nights a week with some brokers)- worlds gone nuts!!

>>Given the title of this thread, why are you participating?

why not...


>>1. Education - where's the proof to back up your opinion?

if you can't see that the standard of degrees and of higher education is on a steep decline , than no one can help you . you only have to read the papers to know that most Unis are in crisis .

the times did a sting operation on magdalen college oxford , who it seems were willing to " look the other away " in favour of some rich kid who was sweetening his application with daddy's 100's of thousands .

called a bribe in most circles - if oxford is desperate enough to do this , what hope for the rest . go figure.



>>2. IB & Trading - what do the thousands of sales traders, sector traders and prop traders employed by
>>banks do then? What does the bank do as an entity?


STs are not real traders , their function at least the way the term was used in my day is mixed , combining bits of pure trading with other things like brokering .

same with bank prop traders , a lot of them are market makers mixed with trading , and on top of that , their risk control is nothing like that of hedges and CTAs. not trading the real way .


>>3. Market Wizards & the lack of IB traders - the reason for this is simple. In compiling his list of >>interesting traders to talk to, Schwager started by looking at CTA returns. Bank traders don't publically >>publish their results and so wouldn't appear in CTA returns data.


rubbish . bill lipshutz was the only bank trader ( salomons ) that made it to MW 2 , because he was the only guy to make the cut . the rest couldn't get there because their rewards to risk ratios were CR#P.

yeah , banks may make loads overall , but at what risk ? that's what counts the reward to risk o/w you end up like barings , LTCM etc .

published or not , a great trader will be know to the financial community and to Schwager , especially if he was a bank PT with their large & weak egos.

as an ex IB man you should know this , or perhaps you do but are conveniently ignoring it - * surprise , surprise * .

and it seems when the banks are forced to publish results , they do crap , no wonder they hide their results .

www.iasg.com choose rank by YTD , and you will see 1 bank in the top 50 , 50
no less !! at no.38, pretty damn poor in anyone's book .


>> There are some great traders out there on the sellside. Your opinions suggest you don't know what >>you are talking about. And not for the first time.


all traders can buy and sell - what the hell are you on about ?

my opinions on trading are based on the fact I have a certified statement from finspreads that says I am in the top 20 % of all their clients . would you like to see it ?

I bet no bank trader could do that.


>>I will say no more.


oh , but you will , because I am around , kuh kuh kuh .

perhaps I'm not so ignorant after all.