Seminars

Hi,

I have been reading through a few of the recent seminar threads and comments/independent reviews on the various tutors and seminar providers and have a few thoughts and comments.

Personally, I have never been on a course nor a seminar and neither have I ever read a trading book. All I know now is through experience and screen time. This, obviously, is not the way for everyone and for many, a tutor can be a valuable asset to the learning curve.

Without trying to come accross as rude, I am curious to how and why people attend and cough up large sums of money to be taught how to trade. Maybe because I have been trading for so long and an active member of these boards, I am wise to the ways of the seminar scams but it seems to me that the saying 'a fool and his money are easily parted' rings very true.

A few reasons spring to mind being; if the tutor was that good, why is he teaching for 3k a pop and not just trading for him/herself? If it was that easy, why is there so many newbies wiping out? Do you really think a tutor, especially in a big seminar hall, can teach discipline and the finer spec of a personalised trading plan?

Also, trading is a multi-million pound business with some big money and well funded banks and like many other high paying careers, do you really think you can learn everything for 3 grand in one easy afternoon? It seems to me the same as paying 3k to Dr Nick (riveira 'he of the simpsons') to teach you to become a doctor in one simple session... Ain't gonna happen!

I can see how, with their flashy websites and advertising, the world of trading can seem easy to the unititated, ignorant and gullible but due diligance is required, like in everything in life.

Hence this brings me to my real point....

Why don't you regular guys here start a thread for helping those who wish to use seminars and tutors, to instead of moaning about being conned, help them decifer the good and bad?

I'm not vouching for anyone, nor am I slating anyone but off the top of my head, Naz and Mr Charts from this site have good reviews mostly, and can be read about herein this forum. Other than that my ignorance shines through but it would make for a better thread than one full of complaints....

Just a thought...

wasp said:

Why don't you regular guys here start a thread for helping those who wish to use seminars and tutors, to instead of moaning about being conned, help them decifer the good and bad?

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There have been threads elsewhere which address this subject. But rather than expect anyone to slog through another 100 posts of whatever, I'll reiterate here that in order to distinguish between the good and bad, the attendee has first to decide just what it is that he expects and wants. Does he want somebody to teach him a particular method or system? Or does he want somebody to teach him how to trade, which will entail helping the attendee to develop his own method (or system or strategy or approach or whatever one wants to call it)?

If the former, the attendee has a right to know if the approach in question has some value. Here is where a request for trading records is appropriate, or at least some data other than backtest results. Whether the attendee can then make a success of the approach himself is another matter.

If the latter, the attendee must understand that one doesn't develop a trading strategy in a weekend, which is probably why these seminars generally involve selling something, usually touted as turnkey, usually chock full of bumper sticker wisdom (cut your losses short, etc).

In law, a contract represents a meeting of the minds. If there has been no meeting of the minds, there is no contract. With regard to seminars and tutors, there is rarely a meeting of the minds, as whatever the attendee expects often bears little resemblance to what the instructor plans on covering. Hence all the wailing and disgruntlement. Therefore, anyone interested in seminars, courses, mentors, etc. needs to decide just what it is that he wants AND to determine whether or not he and the instructor/mentor/coach/tutor are on the same wavelength.

Db

wasp said:

Without trying to come accross as rude, I am curious to how and why people attend and cough up large sums of money to be taught how to trade. Maybe because I have been trading for so long and an active member of these boards, I am wise to the ways of the seminar scams but it seems to me that the saying 'a fool and his money are easily parted' rings very true.

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Hi wasp,

Is it so surprising that people - after reading a dozen of books, frequenting websites of all kinds and reading everywhere what you should not do (ignore your stops, buy high, try to pick bottoms/tops, etc.) but never getting a clue about what you should do - turn to what they think is the only possible option left? After someone has lost money he only wants to gain it back as soon as possible. If the trader in spe has no hopes of getting profitable soon, and he feels as if he exhausted all the resources he's aware of (apart from coughing up some money to learn how to trade over a weekend), what is there left for him?

I'm not saying it's a wise choice, I'm only saying that if people were told where to look more and how to approach trading, they wouldn't be getting their hopes up about getting their money back soon, because developing a strategy indeed doesn't happen over a weekend's work.

As for your idea about starting a new thread, thumbs up.

firewalker99 said:

As for your idea about starting a new thread, thumbs up.

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You know, thats what I thought.

Last night, I wanted a song I couldn't find on youtube and rather than buy the album I thought I'd download it. Having never done so, I scoured the net and came across a thread on Shareaza and after much reading, decided to download it and try it.

The one thing that I noticed, which in part prompted this thread, was a thread on their forum with lists of various download programs, and warning the new away from those that charge unneccessarily, or have a multitude of pop ups and spyware etc... Then, various members added their own thoughts comments and opinions etc and anyone coming along could decifer the good from the bad, could read the whole thread, get the overall opinion and then choose...

Strangely though, all the members who like a good moan and slanging match on Seckers thread, aren't exactly forthcoming to help others like themselves once upon a time, from making the same mistakes.

Hi All,

Interesting thread, and since I am a Trader and Trading Coach, this is a thread I feel compelled to have an input in.

As many people here may already know, I trade U.S. Stocks and also offer private coaching to clients who want to be shown my method. The question I am always asked is the obvious one: "Why do you bother showing others your method instead of just trading?"

What I find fascinating is people's assumption that once you are able to trade successfully, you would just want to move to the Bahamas and sit there and trade and do nothing else. Personally, I am not ready to retire. I enjoy interacting with other traders and I like talking about trading, and I charge for my time because what I teach has value.

The problem with the coaching business is that there are so many books, seminars and courses that are completely useless. The world of Financial Trading seems to be filled with mis-information. Many people actually don't take up my coaching because my trading results don't sound outstanding enough for them. For some, they are too realistic. It seems that people would rather believe other unrealistic claims that are advertised.

I personally tell all my clients not to expect to be able to spend a day with me and then think that they can just go straight off and trade like a pro. What I teach will take some time to practice, which is why I encourage all my clients to stay in contact with me for as long they need to until they reach an appropriate level of independence.

You could argue that this thread has given me some free advertising, but trust me that is not the intention!

I hope that some of my explanations, views and opinions above will serve as an interesting response to WASP's original post.


Thanks

Damian

wasp said:

Strangely though, all the members who like a good moan and slanging match on Seckers thread, aren't exactly forthcoming to help others like themselves once upon a time, from making the same mistakes.

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Zenda got a right slagging off on his Scam Thread but I didn't notice any of his students step forward to complain about him.

If they did I guess I must have missed it.

and before anyone says it let me make one thing clear, I am not a student of Zenda's or anyone else for that matter and I have absolutely no intention of attending such a course in the future.

dd

Cheers Damian,

I am certainly not knocking anyone who tutors or their reasons behind it. The interaction with other traders is the reason I spend time on these boards as I only know a couple of other traders (friends and family) so I use these boards as my interaction. I would quite happilly help anyone out and show them how I trade but personally, it was a journey best reached on my own yet thats something else entirely.

Each to their own and if people wish to learn via a tutor or seminar etc then its all good. What I don't understand is why there are members who enjoy the slanging matches on the Secker thread yet aren't willing to help others and try to try and improve and wittle the good from the bad? I know Zenda got a slating on his thread for many reasons and I am in no way trying to do such a thing, nor have I anything to sell etc, it was a thought that crossed my mind that could only help surely?

The other thing that gets to me is people pumping 3k into Winters or Seckers skyrocket, like those who pump spread betting companies CEO's wage packet when they could be putting that money to real use and in the real markets and giving their losses squarely to other traders. Again though, thats something else entirely.

I agree though, there are countless seminars and tutors around and the advertising offers such great reward that something along the lines of this thread can only help the members here at least, to get the best they can. Whether this is free advertising for you or others Damian is fine by me, its all about sorting the good from the bad and if your crap, we'll all soon know (no offence meant!).

Anyhow, I know nothing of the world of tutorage and seminars and only those that do can take this further. I hope they do...

Kicking it off.........

A constantly updated, by members, opinion rated review thread for various seminars:

Obviously every one has their own agenda and any readers should read all thoughts about each course or seminar but for those searching for views.........

I know very little about any of the below so I leave it open for any more knowledgable to add their 2 cents...... apologies to T2W if there is a section for this but for ease of update and those newbies searching the web.......

On the plus side:

Mr Charts and Naz (I think they are invitation only)
Grey1 (has private forum here on T2W)
Damian Oakley (a regular poster here who IMO seems to very reliable)


On the negative side:

Greg Secker
Darren Winters



Thats all I know so I leave it those who know more........

wasp said:

I know very little about any of the below so I leave it open for any more knowledgable to add their 2 cents...... apologies to T2W if there is a section for this but for ease of update and those newbies searching the web.......

On the plus side:

Mr Charts and Naz (I think they are invitation only)
Grey1 (has private forum here on T2W)
Damian Oakley (a regular poster here who IMO seems to very reliable)


On the negative side:

Greg Secker
Darren Winters

.....

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Very good idea WASP - a bit more useful than the drivel on the Secker thread (no offence to any contributors - but it has turned into a bun fight) .
I think to make this even more valuable to readers it would be useful to have a few facts in with the opinions. Merely saying 'X is good' and 'Y is bad' is pretty meaningless - and as we have seen in the past, some of the opinions are from the seminar leaders and / or friends.
If people have been on these courses I think it would be useful to hear things like:

• Cost
• Duration
• Topics covered
• Instruments (e.g. Forex, Equities, Indices, etc.)
• Level (beginner - Advanced)
• Class / group size
• Quality of seminar leader

I'm sure there are a few other things that might be relevant but that is just a few things that i think might turn a conversation into something more meaningful. I'm open to ideas and keen to have a good resource here.

It may also be useful to hear the opinions of the seminar leaders themselves on the same thread - keep things in the open.

I hope this helps,
C

The best indicator of all is to ask attendees whether they are using the taught methods 6 months after the course!

The course syllabus and quality thereof are not a good indicator of the person being able to trade.

Ask them their opinions after 6 months.

trendie said:

The best indicator of all is to ask attendees whether they are using the taught methods 6 months after the course!

The course syllabus and quality thereof are not a good indicator of the person being able to trade.

Ask them their opinions after 6 months.

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Hi Trendie,

This is a good idea in theory.

However, from experience, I would say that whether or not a trader is still using the method that was taught to him 6 months previously, is not necessarily an accurate reflection on the quality of the trading coach that taught him the method.

People have their own independent minds and sometimes, even when they are taught a quality trading method that does work, the decision whether to actually go away and apply that method lies completely with them.

Just because a trader is not using a system he was taught 6 months ago, does not mean that the system he was taught was useless - it simply means that the trader has chosen not to trade it for reasons known only to himself.


Thanks

Damian

The very best way is to sit next to a trader and ask him to trade the market. Some of the coaches hate the word LIVE AND REAL TIME coaching .. They can do the talk and impress you with bull crap but when it comes to trading they prefer Sunday's LOL

There is only one secret to trading ... Trade until you learn .Don't give up and remember this is game of probabilities and losses are part of the game..

Forget about paper trading and back testing ,, open a small position and trade and learn with real money and when you nearly gave up join the TECHNICAL TRADER club and learn how the job can be done .. One more thing ,, don't expect to make 100% successful trades every day because this is not going to happen and be suspicious of those who post a beautiful chart claiming they made $$$ catching an awesome break out without highlighting their losses...

grey1

Grey1 said:

Forget about paper trading and back testing ,, open a small position and trade and learn with real money...

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Grey1,

As a sort of 'elder statesman' of T2W, commanding the the widespread respect throughout the community that you do, I was rather surprised to read this highly contentious comment! The less experienced on these boards may interpret your comments very literally and the consequences could be disastrous. I'm sure you mean well and that it is not your intention to be the catalyst that results in (new) traders losing money but, with advice like this, I fear this may be the outcome.
Tim.

timsk said:

Grey1,

As a sort of 'elder statesman' of T2W, commanding the the widespread respect throughout the community that you do, I was rather surprised to read this highly contentious comment! The less experienced on these boards may interpret your comments very literally and the consequences could be disastrous. I'm sure you mean well and that it is not your intention to be the catalyst that results in (new) traders losing money but, with advice like this, I fear this may be the outcome.
Tim.

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tim

The psychological aspect of trading has huge bearing on trading result of any trader which goes un detected using paper trading .. Also back testing is a non sense strategy to test the future behaviour of strategy even though it might not look like a bad idea.

Grey1

Some great pointers all and certainly all to be considered.

I don't think someone has to be trading said teachings forever more, its more important IMO to come away from any teaching/mentoring to have learnt the more important factors behind the trading itself (Money management, risk reduction, deiscipline, understanding etc). As long as these are taught, the tutored can then progress to trading their own way.

I also think that paper trading and backtesting have their own place in the early stages of becoming a trader. Discipiline and having the emotion within the trading is to be mastered but to rush in without a plan, with real money is only going to put more fear and doubt in the trader. Like many things in life, theres no point going in fully cocked if last week you didn't know what cable, or the S&P actually was.

All that aside, any more opinions here on seminars, tutors and/or mentors not yet mentioned? Good or bad?

im with gray. no pain, no gain. what do you learn losing £3k of paper money? not as much as losing £3k of real money.

as for seminars, ive never met a successful trader (and i know a few believe me) who went to a seminar, or use indicators for that matter - well maybe as a reference but not decision criteria. they did/do have mentors though.

charliechan said:

im with gray. no pain, no gain. what do you learn losing £3k of paper money? not as much as losing £3k of real money.

as for seminars, ive never met a successful trader (and i know a few believe me) who went to a seminar, or use indicators for that matter - well maybe as a reference but not decision criteria. they did/do have mentors though.

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Are these mentors available to the general public?

charliechan said:

im with gray. no pain, no gain. what do you learn losing £3k of paper money?

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For one thing, you learn that you're not ready to begin trading with real money . . .

Db

wasp said:

Some great pointers all and certainly all to be considered.

I don't think someone has to be trading said teachings forever more, its more important IMO to come away from any teaching/mentoring to have learnt the more important factors behind the trading itself (Money management, risk reduction, deiscipline, understanding etc). As long as these are taught, the tutored can then progress to trading their own way.

I also think that paper trading and backtesting have their own place in the early stages of becoming a trader. Discipiline and having the emotion within the trading is to be mastered but to rush in without a plan, with real money is only going to put more fear and doubt in the trader. Like many things in life, theres no point going in fully cocked if last week you didn't know what cable, or the S&P actually was.

All that aside, any more opinions here on seminars, tutors and/or mentors not yet mentioned? Good or bad?

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wasp i think when it comes to learning you have to be of a certain way inclined
a few years ago a friend of mine was learning under woodie something or other he said to me that it was good but a lot of the guys that use his method were already experienced traders and he found it difficult to assimilate the technique, he asked me to 'teach' him my methodology the problem at the time was that even though i knew what i new i had never had to articulate it for anyone so i found myself learning as i was teaching. anyway a very long story short he just could not get it i tried but it never seem to register with him i kind of felt like a failure but it was evident my style was not for him
he now trades using alan farley's method he likes it and seems happy and does quite well
point is if you are a pattern guy then learn from someone who uses that technique
if you are an indicator/oscillator learn from that type
just a thought

Cheers all and appreciated input. Without trying to sound unapreaciative, I'm not actually looking nor interested in seminars or tutoring or anything similar as I have no issues with my trading, but it was more a follow on from the 'Secker' thread, to supply opinions for newbies on all seminars and mentors available and tried.