Trend Following

This is a discussion on Trend Following within the Discretionary Trading forums, part of the Trading Methods category; Originally Posted by adamscj You're right that a lot of the big hedge funds are still following the basic rules ...

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Old Dec 23, 2010, 7:07am   #17
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You're right that a lot of the big hedge funds are still following the basic rules that were laid down for the Turtles and are now easily available free online.

The problem you'll have trading on your own account is
a) Trading costs
b) drawdown

The big players can pretty much trade at choice price as the banks are so desperate for the flow which makes a BIG difference to the profitability of the strategy. On your own you'll be paying a big chunk of spread, especially in some of the more esoteric commodities.

Also, beware of drawdown. The standard trend following techniques do make money of the long run but can also have some pretty long runs of flat or negative performance (> 1yr). It's not uncommon to lose 10-15% in a year, only to make it back (and more) over the following years. Most of the systematic trend followers give investors a guide time horizon of 3-5years so don't expect to get rich quick with this.

Finally, Trend following is not something that you can live off. It will typically return you 10-15% per annum which is very nice for a hedge fund who make their money off 2+20 but means you need a sizable investment up front to make a living off it.

Good Luck
I have been looking at the spread and you are right on some of the more exotic commodities like for example timber the spreads are pretty big. Like I have said, I want to implement this through spread betting as it gives me access to a lot of markets I otherwise wouldn't be able to trade due to account size. However I think initially I will exclude any markets that have a huge spread.

I have read a lot of articles talking about whether the turtle traders results were all luck as they wouldn't have performed well in certain years. The biggest problem with these articles is they look at one market (normally a US equity Index) and apply the strategy. I plan on trading numerous markets with low correlation, therefore if one is not trending then I'll have another 10 or so to look at. With this strategy you don't have to be right all the time just make sure when you are right you keep adding to your position. Correlation between markets is extremely important in this strategy.

I have been working one bullsh*t job after the next since graduating and am sick of it all. I am going to put significant amounts of my time & resources in to researching various strategies but I do want to make this my living. From what I have read so far I really like trend following. To me life is about taking calculated risks to achieve what you want and this the first step for me to get the kind of life I want instead of waiting for someone somewhere to give me a 'big break'.

Part of the allure to trend following is the fact it is not a get rich quick scheme. However what do you think my chances are of getting backed by an investment bank once I can prove I have something that really works? I realise that's a big if but that is my endgame. There is no way I will be able to come up with the kind of money I need to live off it but need to try and convince someone who does have money that I can make them money.

Cheers for all the help & advice
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Old Dec 23, 2010, 7:21am   #18
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Part of the allure to trend following is the fact it is not a get rich quick scheme. However what do you think my chances are of getting backed by an investment bank once I can prove I have something that really works? I realise that's a big if but that is my endgame. There is no way I will be able to come up with the kind of money I need to live off it but need to try and convince someone who does have money that I can make them money.
You're unlikely to get backed by an investment bank, a better bet is private investors. Typically you would need to show both a strategy that backtests well (e.g. over 10+ years for TF) and also actual returns from you own trading (e.g. 1-2 years) that proves the reality matches your theory.

Once you've got that, the only way you're seriously going to make it work is by making the right friends as no-one will hand over (say) $/£5m to a complete stranger!
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Old Dec 23, 2010, 9:40am   #19
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You're unlikely to get backed by an investment bank, a better bet is private investors. Typically you would need to show both a strategy that backtests well (e.g. over 10+ years for TF) and also actual returns from you own trading (e.g. 1-2 years) that proves the reality matches your theory.

Once you've got that, the only way you're seriously going to make it work is by making the right friends as no-one will hand over (say) $/£5m to a complete stranger!
It would be really useful to hear what your background is when you post such conclusive statements.

If I have something that works and can prove it does work then why would it be unlikely to get backed by a prop desk somewhere.

My other idea is to try and get into a trading grad scheme. All banks hire junior traders. Most of these are oxbridge graduates but if I go for a grad scheme having had all this experience, wouldn't you say I have a much better chance than a recent graduate. I should add I have almost completed the CFA (only L3 left).
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Old Dec 23, 2010, 10:57am   #20
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It would be really useful to hear what your background is when you post such conclusive statements.
I've worked at 2 investment banks (still at one of them now) and a large systematic hedge fund that concentrated on trend following.

I started my career on an investment bank Grad scheme. They're generally not interested in your trading background, much more your educational background and general mathematical aptitude.
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Old Dec 23, 2010, 11:07am   #21
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I've worked at 2 investment banks (still at one of them now) and a large systematic hedge fund that concentrated on trend following.

I started my career on an investment bank Grad scheme. They're generally not interested in your trading background, much more your educational background and general mathematical aptitude.
Not really what I wanted to hear. So what advice would you have for me now that you know what I'm trying to achieve?
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Old Dec 23, 2010, 11:11am   #22
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Not really what I wanted to hear. So what advice would you have for me now that you know what I'm trying to achieve?
Actually I haven't quite figured out what you want to achieve apart from run a turtle-esque trend following strategy. Is it to work for an investment bank, start a hedge fund or trade for yourself? You've mentioned all of them so far....
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Old Dec 23, 2010, 11:14am   #23
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vish4al started this thread I'll PM you.
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Old Dec 28, 2010, 6:00am   #24
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Hi.
True support and resistance is horizontal and its based on what price has done before.
..............
Debt
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