What possibilties do I have.....?

[euribor_tr4der]

Hi,

I am just after some general career advice. I have traded on my own account as backed trader for 3 years. I have had my fair share of bad luck and even more !! However I have remained positive and persistent and carried on with my trading, determined to succeed. Now 3 years later, having only got my trading account into positive in Oct'06, I am back down into -ve again.
I am getting frustrated at the whole situation and a good run never seems to have any follow through.

My question is that.............I have a degree, but went into prop trading as my frist job. Now having done this for 3 yrs, what potential positions could I apply for where my experience as a backed trader will be viewed in a favourable manner ??

It is now far too late to go for grad positions. What does one do when the dream they are chasing is fading ? After 3 yrs do you cut yout losses ??

Cheers guys.

 

[jong52yuara]

if you cant trade by yourself, try managed account.

 

[SCFX]

Hi,

I am just after some general career advice. I have traded on my own account as backed trader for 3 years. I have had my fair share of bad luck and even more !! However I have remained positive and persistent and carried on with my trading, determined to succeed. Now 3 years later, having only got my trading account into positive in Oct'06, I am back down into -ve again.
I am getting frustrated at the whole situation and a good run never seems to have any follow through.

My question is that.............I have a degree, but went into prop trading as my frist job. Now having done this for 3 yrs, what potential positions could I apply for where my experience as a backed trader will be viewed in a favourable manner ??

It is now far too late to go for grad positions. What does one do when the dream they are chasing is fading ? After 3 yrs do you cut yout losses ??

Cheers guys.

Hi may i ask how you have been trading. Have you been trading the systems the arcade use or have u been trading your own fully autmated algorithms or some form of discretionary system?

Cheers Charlie

 

[alexander]

Hi,

I am just after some general career advice. I have traded on my own account as backed trader for 3 years. I have had my fair share of bad luck and even more !! However I have remained positive and persistent and carried on with my trading, determined to succeed. Now 3 years later, having only got my trading account into positive in Oct'06, I am back down into -ve again.
I am getting frustrated at the whole situation and a good run never seems to have any follow through.

My question is that.............I have a degree, but went into prop trading as my frist job. Now having done this for 3 yrs, what potential positions could I apply for where my experience as a backed trader will be viewed in a favourable manner ??

It is now far too late to go for grad positions. What does one do when the dream they are chasing is fading ? After 3 yrs do you cut yout losses ??

Cheers guys.

I believe joining those prop trading firms is the wrong way to learn trading. Those firms educate traders for their own objective of generating a large turnover and the basic scheme is "rebate trading", something that hardly works any longer but those prop firms still insist because they have invested a good chunk of money in technology.

If you desire to stick with trading you will need to investigate different trading styles and see which is most appropriate for you. Flipping large orders for a penny will only turn most people losers at the end of the day.

If you have the courage to learn true trading then you need to study the basics. Otherwise, you may want to go back to school and learn some other profession. Trading is not the world. Plumbers make more money than the average trader.

Alex

 

[SCFX]

I agree with what u say, i also think that if you are going to trade on such a short time frame u must have your systems FULLY automated otherwise trader error and slippage will kill you. My shortest time frame is 1 min chart (yes really quite short) but it only creates maybe 4 trades per week. My other systems are off the 1 hr and 4 hr charts. These systems are usually more consistent. When i have been into prop firms i can see they are only semi interested in me as i don't create the trade volume, but i think trading these time frames prop firms teach is just so competitive.

 

[TWI]

There may be possibilities in the spreadbet companies for somebody with your experience if you are looking to find a job and earn a salary.
Scalping experience will not offer a foothold in a fund or IB but would not worry about applying for grad positions for anything you find suitable as you are only 3 years out. Maybe that will be seen by some as an advantage if you can justify your reasons and fight your corner.

 

[DT]

I was a trader at an arcade too (though not for as long as you). I found that there were less opportunities to trade the bund/bobl and so started experimenting with other ideas - experimented with changing the ratio I traded it so it was more biased towards the bund (was sort of taking a directional view too). Was manually leggin into spreads normally using s/r levels from market profile as an entry as opposed to using auto spreader. Still found that it was hard to make money in late nov/early dec so looked at FX. Problem was trying to scalp EUR/USD futures 60+ times a day at the same time as trying to get 15-20 spread trades executed manually in bund/bobl basically just caused me to end up in a big mess.

Since leaving I got a mixed response from employers. Some recruitment consultants were useless and sent me to dodgy brokerage firms 'its sort of like trading' - erm no it isn't it is a sales role that has got naff all to do with trading. Be careful with recruitment consultants - they are used to sending people for positions as 'sales traders' etc.. to brokerage firms and plenty of them have no idea what a trading arcade/prop firm is so basically assume you were in some sort of sales role.

I went through the various maths/IQ type tests for one of the options market makers passed all those + the interview with their risk manager but then completely made a mess of the final interview with one of their traders.

In the end I came to the conclusion that my options were to get another position within an arcade or get a completely different role but still within the financial markets. Basically I ended up getting a Business Analyst position at software firm that provides trading/settlement software to banks. I've got a bit of background in IT anyway and I reckon there are some decent prospects in that industry plus it is sort of relevant to what I want to do in my spare time (looking into developing automated trading systems).

Have you thought about looking into the various options market makers Optiver, Liquid, mako etc.. I applied to one of those three and got through the various stages (apart from the final interview) and I've got less trading experience than you have.

 

[combotrader]

Ageism

Hi,

I am just after some general career advice. I have traded on my own account as backed trader for 3 years. I have had my fair share of bad luck and even more !! However I have remained positive and persistent and carried on with my trading, determined to succeed. Now 3 years later, having only got my trading account into positive in Oct'06, I am back down into -ve again.
I am getting frustrated at the whole situation and a good run never seems to have any follow through.

My question is that.............I have a degree, but went into prop trading as my frist job. Now having done this for 3 yrs, what potential positions could I apply for where my experience as a backed trader will be viewed in a favourable manner ??

It is now far too late to go for grad positions. What does one do when the dream they are chasing is fading ? After 3 yrs do you cut yout losses ??

Cheers guys.

Exactly how old are you ? Late 20s ? Early 30s ? I know a guy who is 39 and a lawyer who is doing a master`s in Finance to get in to the industry. IF he can why can`t you ? Just make sure its a good place and not Kingston Uni. Don`t let age defeat you. There are plenty of pros who switch careers later in life..BUT need a good qualification from a good place.

 

[euribor_tr4der]

Hi may i ask how you have been trading. Have you been trading the systems the arcade use or have u been trading your own fully autmated algorithms or some form of discretionary system?

Cheers Charlie

Charlie,

Ive been trading my own methods. Namely support and resistence. Based on how what we were taught at the start of the program.

 

[alexander]

Charlie,

Ive been trading my own methods. Namely support and resistence. Based on how what we were taught at the start of the program.

Support becomes resistance in falling markets and resistance becomes support in rising markets.

Since you can never know in advance which direction prices will head these price levels are useless and extremely risky to use.

Alex

 

[A Dashing Blade]

. . . I know a guy who is 39 and a lawyer who is doing a master`s in Finance to get in to the industry. IF he can why can`t you ? Just make sure its a good place and not Kingston Uni . . .

Huh? Very successfully switched from trading to a kinda hybrid IT/quant/interpreter role thru an MSc in IT from Kingston when I was 35.

Like most places, some courses are better than others.

Imo, you should look to "evolve" into a new role ie apply your existing business knowledge + newly aquired (via a specific rather than general masters for example) skills and pitch yourself into the "interface" area between two business areas.

For example, the sort of thing I now do is go into an IB & sort out the technology & quant requirements when a new desk is starting up. The business like me because, well, basically I did their job for 10 years (so no having to explain from first principals to a bunch of IT guys what a yield curve is), IT like me because they've got a guy who can talk to the business in their language and can translate it into geek speak and both areas like me because they don't have to speak to the quants.

 

[combotrader]

Huh? Very successfully switched from trading to a kinda hybrid IT/quant/interpreter role thru an MSc in IT from Kingston when I was 35.

Agree with a lot of your post but try doing it in reverse, go from IT to trading with a masters from Kingston...might be more difficult. That ws our initial premise.

 

[maximm123]

I am in exactly the same situation as you. I have been trading my own account for 2 years but have decided to call it a day.

What I would say to you is that you shouldnt give up on your dream. Prop trading at an arcade is very different to trading at a bank/hedge fund. I have several mates who trade at banks and they are amazed people make a career out of trading the way we do. If trading is really what you want to do then you shouldnt give up.

The general opinion I am getting from recruitment consultants is that in order to get to trading at a bank or hedge fund you need to take a step back to move forward. Look for assistant roles on trading desks and try and move from there. Another option is to pay to do you SI exams yourself which will help a lot but they are pricey. But, in general, banks dont look favourably on traders from arcades. They see us as glorified gamblers so the odds are not in our favour!

But I am not going to give up...I will get the job I want one day even if it takes longer than I want it to!

 

[combotrader]

I am in exactly the same situation as you. I have been trading my own account for 2 years but have decided to call it a day.

What I would say to you is that you shouldnt give up on your dream. Prop trading at an arcade is very different to trading at a bank/hedge fund. I have several mates who trade at banks and they are amazed people make a career out of trading the way we do. If trading is really what you want to do then you shouldnt give up.

The general opinion I am getting from recruitment consultants is that in order to get to trading at a bank or hedge fund you need to take a step back to move forward. Look for assistant roles on trading desks and try and move from there. Another option is to pay to do you SI exams yourself which will help a lot but they are pricey. But, in general, banks dont look favourably on traders from arcades. They see us as glorified gamblers so the odds are not in our favour!

But I am not going to give up...I will get the job I want one day even if it takes longer than I want it to!

By the SI I take it you mean the Securities Institute...Another good one, perhaps the best one, apparently, is CFA part I. Problem is only 20% pass 1st time.

 

[maximm123]

By the SI I take it you mean the Securities Institute...Another good one, perhaps the best one, apparently, is CFA part I. Problem is only 20% pass 1st time.

yeah I mean the securities institute exmas. Unit 1, the Financial Regs paper, is compulsory and then its probaly easiest to thake unit 4 which is the Securities & Financial Derivatives paper. Once you have done those you can undertake advising on investment and dealing with clients in securities & financial derivatives (not including commodities).

If you just want to be a trader/market maker then this is enough. However if you want to end up being a fund manager at at hedge fund or asset management firm then you will need to do the CFA. Its a beast though...loads of my mates have done it and they say its a killer...so I am going to try and avoid that!!!

 

[A Dashing Blade]

Agree with a lot of your post but try doing it in reverse, go from IT to trading with a masters from Kingston...might be more difficult. That ws our initial premise.

Hmmmmmm, agree tbh, I don't really see the point unless it's a very very specific masters Financial Mathematics.

 

[jong52yuara]

never blame the situation, but it is our own fault & lack of knowledge to get there

 

[RogueTrader888888]

I prop traded for just over a year with mixed results. But then decided to go back into law (as I had studied LLB), now im on LPC to become a solicitor. I would like work InHouse and continue to work in or near the trading floor.

Almost all of my colleagues with whom I traded have now moved on and are doing middle office trade support at big investment banks such as Merill Lynch, Deutsche, Soc Gen, Morgan Stanley, Goldman. They are all on at least 35k + bonus and dont need to sweat it out whether they will be in the job a few months down the line. A few are trying to get into front office to earl a potential huge salary (but it is extremely competitive to get in)

How they got there is relatively simple. They basically lied on their CV and said that they did middle office trade support for a few years and these companies and recruitment agencies loved them. The ones that remained honest in their CV have gained little so far.

The bottom line is that prop trading has little transferrable skills and litle career progression.

 

[NNIT]

starting ur career as a trader at a prop firm seems like a big gamble...either u make it or u dont....this fact is not so motivating