Prop firms : Do they really invest on training?

[DaxDestroyer]

trading is the hardest way to make an easy living

and the easiest way, to make life hard

 

[RichieE]

i think the problem is that a lot of people want to walk into a prop shop and be given a book that is entitled "do this and become a millionaire" its not just down to the training its also down to how you apply yourself to it, regardless of the training you get if you immerse yourself into it dep enough and hard enough you will succeed ! training or no training if you want the easy route to hard bucks then you are going to fail.

Toxic, I think that you've hit the "nail on the head" (insert any other appropriate idiom here).

The stereotype of a trader is one who earns a seven figure salary using a 'system'. If you are proactive enough to put time and effort into trading I expect that you'll be fine. If you expect to be 'spoon fed' a series of instructions then you're probably better off as an accountant...

Just my tuppence worth...

 

[RichieE]

I tend to RichiE. I have the same experience. I was trained by Deutsche Bank, tough and demanding, but worth a million bucks in hindsight (or even more )

And I trained people myself, not to take my job, but to make it easier and to have a back-up IN CASE.

DaxDestroyer, I see that you had training at Deutsche Bank. I'm curious to know what the differences are between the training you received and the type of training received at a prop-shop.

Would you mind elaborating on what you were taught?

Regards

 

[DaxDestroyer]

DaxDestroyer, I see that you had training at Deutsche Bank. I'm curious to know what the differences are between the training you received and the type of training received at a prop-shop.

Would you mind elaborating on what you were taught?

Regards

Sorry, but I can't compare it as it was a long time ago and time changed And I never received training at a prop-shop.

The emphasis was on technical analysis, strenghth of mind (not opinion ).
And they let you trade with products, where they had positions, so you could lose money, but compared with the position it was SMALL.
Very good was, that they let you sit beside an experienced trader (every week a different guy, a different market), so you could learn from them, see the differences and try to find your own style. Everybody was very open as they wanted to have a replacement for their holidays AND were glad if you copycat them. They really hated to come back and find their bets changed

 

[RichieE]

Sorry, but I can't compare it as it was a long time ago and time changed And I never received training at a prop-shop.

That's fine... I can supply you with an insight on the training that I've received at a prop-shop

The emphasis was on technical analysis, strenghth of mind (not opinion ).

That's interesting... was technical analysis a large component of your training? Also, can you elaborate on 'strength of mind'? Are you talking about psychology, state management, thinking in probabilities etc?

And they let you trade with products, where they had positions, so you could lose money, but compared with the position it was SMALL.

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean by 'they let you trade with products'. Are you saying that they only let you trade in the cash market in a product in which they are already long?

Very good was, that they let you sit beside an experienced trader (every week a different guy, a different market), so you could learn from them, see the differences and try to find your own style.

That's fantastic... you can't buy experience like that. It's not something that I'm getting at a prop house (and I can't think how they would do that practically).

Everybody was very open as they wanted to have a replacement for their holidays AND were glad if you copycat them. They really hated to come back and find their bets changed

That's also different from what I've experienced. I've noticed that people within your my team are quite happy to tell you what they're trading and more importantly 'how' they are doing it... however, some of the others are scared that you will crowd the market by copying them.

Can I ask, how long would it take for someone to become a full trader at Deutsche rather than trading the 'crumbs' of another book?

 

[DaxDestroyer]

That's fine... I can supply you with an insight on the training that I've received at a prop-shop That's interesting... was technical analysis a large component of your training? Also, can you elaborate on 'strength of mind'? Are you talking about psychology, state management, thinking in probabilities etc? Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean by 'they let you trade with products'. Are you saying that they only let you trade in the cash market in a product in which they are already long?That's fantastic... you can't buy experience like that. It's not something that I'm getting at a prop house (and I can't think how they would do that practically).That's also different from what I've experienced. I've noticed that people within your my team are quite happy to tell you what they're trading and more importantly 'how' they are doing it... however, some of the others are scared that you will crowd the market by copying them.

Can I ask, how long would it take for someone to become a full trader at Deutsche rather than trading the 'crumbs' of another book?

So many questions?

Will try to answer them in short words.

Yes, TA was a big part of education. Yes, it was about psychology especially as we traded on the floor as well. There it is more difficult to move prices than on the screen

About products. Everything, where they could not really "lose". I think, the reason was to create a habit of winning.

I was told, it lasts 2 years to become a trader. I got my "book" after 6 month

And the 1st day, I traded on the floor, I was close to sh***ing my pants

It is different if you take the decisions yourself or you just execute, what others tell you

 

[DaxDestroyer]

Had a similar 'reality check' moment not long after starting my first job (but surprisingly, NOTactually on my first day). Had been trading maybe a month, and did a deal - remember it clearly, it was HKD, maybe 100m (i.e. c. $13m - nothing special size wise in interbank terms) and afterwards I told my boss I was just stepping off for 5 minutes to garb a coffee.

I went to the coffee machine where they had some stools and a place to read the paper / have a smoke (was a loooong time ago), sat down and thought "holy Sh*t - only a few weeks ago I was still in my shabby student house, eking out a few quid, complaining that beer was heading north of £1 a pint soon, and I've just dealt in hkd100m. What the hell just happened?"

I guess as things all happened pretty fast for me, I'd never had a chance to kind of mentally prepare myself, so never got worried either - so that all hit me a tad later.

I noted, that "my reality" differed a lot from the "reality of others" after some weeks. It was better, not to talk about trading to friends as they thought one was totally out of his mind

This is why sometimes I tell people, I'm a bus driver

They seem to like it even better as they feel so much more valuable :whistling

 

[RichieE]

So many questions?

Will try to answer them in short words.

Thanks! Information is king. I really want to compare and contrast so I can see what (if anything) that I am missing by being in a prop-house

Yes, TA was a big part of education. Yes, it was about psychology especially as we traded on the floor as well. There it is more difficult to move prices than on the screen

I was annoyed that they closed the LIFFE floor. I really wanted to be a pit trader when I was at uni but they closed the pits just after I graduated

About products. Everything, where they could not really "lose". I think, the reason was to create a habit of winning.

Makes sense...

I was told, it lasts 2 years to become a trader. I got my "book" after 6 month

Congratulations! Were you a superstar or do you think the 2 year timeframe was a ploy to increase your confidence? (No offence )

And the 1st day, I traded on the floor, I was close to sh***ing my pants

I'm not surprised! I find it difficult enough to keep track of what I'm trading on a screen... I still can't imagine out how anyone managed to keep track of what happened while shouting and screaming in a pit

It is different if you take the decisions yourself or you just execute, what others tell you

Hmmm... that's interesting. On the prop house/trading arcade route I was just let loose to trade from day one after the end of the training course. However, I suspect this was in a lot less size than an Investment Bank!

Thanks for the info... most illuminating!

 

[RichieE]

I noted, that "my reality" differed a lot from the "reality of others" after some weeks. It was better, not to talk about trading to friends as they thought one was totally out of his mind

This is why sometimes I tell people, I'm a bus driver

They seem to like it even better as they feel so much more valuable :whistling

Funnilly enough, a friend of mine, an ex-LIFFE short sterling options trader, used to tell girls that he met that he was a 'garbage collector' (Yes - He is American). When they inevitably asked him how he could be dancing in an expensive nightclub with a bottle of champagne in each hand, his answer would be;

"I'm a *REALLY GOOD* garbage collector"... :smart:​

Apparently they wouldn't leave him alone after that!

 

[DaxDestroyer]

Funnilly enough, a friend of mine, an ex-LIFFE short sterling options trader, used to tell girls that he met that he was a 'garbage collector' (Yes - He is American). When they inevitably asked him how he could be dancing in an expensive nightclub with a bottle of champagne in each hand, his answer would be;

"I'm a *REALLY GOOD* garbage collector"... :smart:​

Apparently they wouldn't leave him alone after that!

I love that one :clap:

 

[DaxDestroyer]

Congratulations! Were you a superstar or do you think the 2 year timeframe was a ploy to increase your confidence? (No offence )

I think it was luck and a lot, really a lot of work

However, I suspect this was in a lot less size than an Investment Bank!

Bet on that Even nowadays it would be regarded as big

I hope, I answered "everything"

 

[spanish89]

Look at Merril Lynch, Ubs, anyone of these Houses. You really think they have traders,
they don't. They have guys losing 3% everyday, day after day.

Seriouly man how stupid are you?? LOOOOL


I seriously dont get how people with brains as small and stupid as yours are still alive, not be living on the streets starving to death by not being able ot get a job!! :-0



You are writing on the biggest trading forum in the world yet you say thinks like ''Firms are just 'pretending' to hire people just for some kind of joke, when really there is just 1 man sitting in the office writing out all these jobs ads for fun''!!

AND

Then you go to say ''Look at Merril Lynch, Ubs, anyone of these Houses. You really think they have traders,
they don't. They have guys losing 3% everyday, day after day.''



Seriouly man can you not even do basic counting on your fingers??? :cheesy::clap:

This is stuff any primary school kid would even be sniggering at if they saw it! HAHA


If no firm is actually hiring anymore, it is all just 1 big government scam,
and the big banks and firms are all losing 3% each day...

Then in 33.3*days time from now they should all be bankrupt!!

 

[phobos]

If no firm is actually hiring anymore, it is all just 1 big government scam,
and the big banks and firms are all losing 3% each day...

Then in 33.3*days time from now they should all be bankrupt!!

Now i am really wondering who doesnt know how to count !!!

I dont want to disappoint you Spanish guy but you have a BIG mistake there !!

 

[arabianights]

Seriouly man how stupid are you?? LOOOOL


I seriously dont get how people with brains as small and stupid as yours are still alive, not be living on the streets starving to death by not being able ot get a job!! :-0



You are writing on the biggest trading forum in the world yet you say thinks like ''Firms are just 'pretending' to hire people just for some kind of joke, when really there is just 1 man sitting in the office writing out all these jobs ads for fun''!!

AND

Then you go to say ''Look at Merril Lynch, Ubs, anyone of these Houses. You really think they have traders,
they don't. They have guys losing 3% everyday, day after day.''



Seriouly man can you not even do basic counting on your fingers??? :cheesy::clap:

This is stuff any primary school kid would even be sniggering at if they saw it! HAHA

That wasn't a very nice thing to say now, was it?

 

[spanish89]

Now i am really wondering who doesnt know how to count !!!

I dont want to disappoint you Spanish guy but you have a BIG mistake there !!

I was drunk when i wrote that lastnight, but tell me exactly where my maths is wrong?? :cheesy::clap:

The guy claims 3% of the bank's money is being lost everyday, so how many days till all 100% of the money is lost....??

 

[Splitlink]

I was drunk when i wrote that lastnight, but tell me exactly where my maths is wrong?? :cheesy::clap:

The guy claims 3% of the bank's money is being lost everyday, so how many days till all 100% of the money is lost....??

I think you both were. Depth Trade wrote that on New Year's Eve. Where have you been all this time.

 

[0007]

I was drunk when i wrote that lastnight, but tell me exactly where my maths is wrong?? :cheesy::clap:

The guy claims 3% of the bank's money is being lost everyday, so how many days till all 100% of the money is lost....??

Start out with £100 on day 1 and lose 3% per day (remember that's 3% of a reducing amount) you will end up with 10p on day 215. It's compounding in reverse.

Moral of the story is don't trade when you're drunk.