Back testing for non programmers - help!

[simonfudge]

Hi Guys

I want to back test some of my forex strategies.

I have downloaded Ninja Trader as I thought I could set up a strategy without programming experience or skill. I have tried to create a strategy but find the wizard and the help very confusing.

I have also bought back testing software called Forex Tester which runs fine and I need no programming experience to run short term back tests. However if I wish to run longer tests I must either have programming skills which I just do not have, or labourously go through the back test in manual mode, bar by bar.

I know I can run backtests on MT4 but again it seems to me that I need to be a programmer to do so. Even with the help of sites such as Forex Robot Builder it seems the tasks are beyond me - OK so I find programming daunting and yes it is too much for me....

So where can I gain access to back testing without the need to be a whizz programmer. I want to test over significant time periods and then I want to be able to run my strategies as automated programmes with a broker, (thought it was going to be Ninja Trader) ..........oh and I do not want to spend a bundle either.

Help !

 

[NetTecture]

So where can I gain access to back testing without the need to be a whizz programmer.

THe same place you can get top recipes that let you make great star rated food without cooking.

Get it?

Defining an algorythm IS programming. You want to go that way, you better learn how to do it - or hire someone.

 

[simonfudge]

THe same place you can get top recipes that let you make great star rated food without cooking.

Get it?

Defining an algorythm IS programming. You want to go that way, you better learn how to do it - or hire someone.

Yes, I do get it, regularly thanks

I take your point and thanks for the reply.
But it seems to me that either there will be someone providing a non programmers facility now or very soon in the future. All sorts of applications turn up that previously required programming skills that now the non programmer can use.

For example, Ninja Trader offer a strategy wizard for the non programmer. Although I find it is not very good there may be better facilities out there.

It may be that something already exists - that is why I am asking.

Do you code every application you use on a computer or are you happy to have the boring, slow stuff done for you?

 

[NetTecture]

Yes, I do get it, regularly thanks

I take your point and thanks for the reply.
But it seems to me that either there will be someone providing a non programmers facility now or very soon in the future. All sorts of applications turn up that previously required programming skills that now the non programmer can use.

For example, Ninja Trader offer a strategy wizard for the non programmer. Although I find it is not very good there may be better facilities out there.

It may be that something already exists - that is why I am asking.

Do you code every application you use on a computer or are you happy to have the boring, slow stuff done for you?

Yeah, 4GL langauges. Came up 15 years ago, were a total failure.

You did NOT get it. The problem is NOT the environment - it is that to cook one has to learn cooking. You can have a more modern kitchen, but a clueless person will never cook well.

You basically did not undertand anything - you say "ok, but osmoene will make an oven that allows me to cook those wonderfull stuff the 5 star cook makes". It is not the oven that is the problem - it is the cook.

NT already is too dumped down - the wizard is simply totally useless for a lot of things, and anything except the most trivial condition is harder to debug AND visualize than in code. The IDE sucks, seriously, for any nontrivial work - supporting a proper IDE (Visual Studio) would make it a lot better for those really investing in strategy development. Debugging in NT is painfull.

No, it wont work. You will see more toys coming for cluless dudes who do not want to learn proper tools, but you will not see more results coming. Any dumping down limits the user, which means you get some dumbed-down customers and loose some higher end ones because they can not do what they want to do properly.

You want to properly know how optimization works? Why do you not complain about the need to learn the basics of statistics, in order to acutally understand the concepts of optimization ans the numbers the backtest shows up?

Sorry, it wont work. Learn the proper tools to be professional. THIS is how it works. The amount of dumping down that is possible in something that open in possible complexity.... simply wont work. Or... stay in a non-competent way and just use the limited ways you have.

NJot saying NT is perfect - in fact it is not, and there is a lot they do better in NT7. But "cooking for non-cooks" did not work, does not work and, sorry, will not work. Learn cooking.

 

[Jason Rogers]

Hi Guys

I want to back test some of my forex strategies.

I have downloaded Ninja Trader as I thought I could set up a strategy without programming experience or skill. I have tried to create a strategy but find the wizard and the help very confusing.

Programs that allow you to create an automated strategy without any type of programming experience are limited to what they can do. It's only possible to create something based on the parameters available in the program. Due to this limitation, a strategy with any sort of originality will require programming. That's why successful strategies work, they're most likely original and based on something no one else has thought about; therefore the programmers didn't know to include it in their system trading made easy program. Or maybe it gets close to what you want, but there's one important element you need added to make it your own. A very frustrating scenario that I ran into myself

 

[IT_Finance]

You can use Forex Tester, you can test 100% manual trading system there without any programming.

 

[dcraig1]

You can use Forex Tester, you can test 100% manual trading system there without any programming.

Aside from the fact that your post is "100%" spam, it is not true that all manual trading trading systems can be tested with your or anybody else's "me too" software. Doesn't matter how pitchforks you can draw on charts. "Manual" only means manual execution. Any trader uses quite a lot of automation, starting with the drawing of candlestick or OHLC charts.

There will always be cases where any "me too" software product does not provide the facilities a trader needs (backtesting or no backtesting). And that is a rather kind assessment of some of the junk around.

Programming is therefore needed. As another poster remarked, in the end programming may provide the needed edge as it allows a trader to pursue directions other than all the standard stuff vendors foist upon them. That is where the real edge may lie.

 

[mkz160]

Back testing your strategy for one historical feed - $10
Simple strategy/signal - $50
Converting your strategy from one language to another - $100

Code for Advanced strategy - $100
Check your trading strategy for consistency - from $100
Complete strategy (with volume/risk scaling) - from $200

Quantitative research with high volume data (using Matlab) - call for special quote

Performance analysis of your real/demo trades - from $100

10% discount for returning customers

I work with stocks, currencies (forex), indices, futures, options.
Scripts in Easy Language (EL), Meta Quotes Language (MQL), Visual Basic (VBA), Excel spreadsheets, Matlab
API/platform of your choice, including TradeStation, MetaTrader

Contact me I can help you in many ways

 

[NetTecture]

mkz160 - you must be a really terrible guy with computers for those rates to make sense.

Seriously.

"Back testing your strategy for one historical feed - $10"... I have a strategy here. It has about 5 pages of codes, though half of it is trading logic (entering and exiting multiple positions). Backtesting this for USD 10? Including getting it running on your system? Even indian programmers get paid so much it is not worthwhile for them for USD 10

"Code for advanced strategy - $100"...
...same thing. I was working on that one so far for about 2 weeks (the trading logic is the tricky part) and you tell me you do that for USD 100? Your monthly income is below the one of an indian programmer with those rates And I know those

Seriously.

Besides, it is spam

 

[zupcon]

mkz160 - you must be a really terrible guy with computers for those rates to make sense.

I've seen programmers practically begging to work for free on any strategy they can get their hands on in the misguided belief that they might just stumble across something worthwhile.

If you think about it, it defies all logic that someone who lacks either the skills, motivation or intelligence to cobble together a few lines of code would somehow possess the necessary skills to design a mechanical trading strategy.

 

[NetTecture]

Hm, my request list is pretty full given the project marks I see coming in here It was bad some months, but it is definitely reviving now with quite some ferocity... and rates are STILL around 80 USD Per hour in the part of the world I am in for anyone with a clue of higher end technologies (i.e. non-php etc.)

 

[mkz160]

mkz160 - you must be a really terrible guy with computers for those rates to make sense.

Seriously.

"Back testing your strategy for one historical feed - $10"... I have a strategy here. It has about 5 pages of codes, though half of it is trading logic (entering and exiting multiple positions). Backtesting this for USD 10? Including getting it running on your system? Even indian programmers get paid so much it is not worthwhile for them for USD 10

NetTecture

I understand your concerns
However, if your strategy is in place and coded already - what stops you to back test it ?
Is it so hard, do I miss smth :?:

 

[NetTecture]

Well, what are you needed for then?

Dont get me wrong, but if I program it in NinjaTrader or TradeStation and know how to do this already.... backtesting is part of the whole strategy anyway AND of the toolset

This really is the problem - I dont think your service per se is useless, but:
* The pricing is totally off for doing ANY real work, even if you are an indian low paid programmer, and
* Anyone using a proper package AND setting up his own strategy properly.... has no need for you doing the backtesting.

This is like the rock and hard place problem, and you are just between those two WIth this scenario - I am just not sure who your customers may be.

My own backtesting works nice, btw., thanks

 

[mkz160]

I've seen programmers practically begging to work for free on any strategy they can get their hands on in the misguided belief that they might just stumble across something worthwhile.

If you think about it, it defies all logic that someone who lacks either the skills, motivation or intelligence to cobble together a few lines of code would somehow possess the necessary skills to design a mechanical trading strategy.

Working for free - it is not my style.

I develop strategies for myself, I do not sell them. One need regular discretional follow-up of strategy to update it.

In my experience - people start to trade, later get some idea how it should be done by robot, but have no skills to program it. So, it is cheaper and more time effective for them to hire a professional :smart: to write the code.
Others want to hide their idea , so ask to build a template for them to be modified by themselves.
The third case - people write trading models by themselves, but due to lack of experience they make inconsistent rules.

 

[mkz160]

Well, what are you needed for then?

This really is the problem - I dont think your service per se is useless, but:
* The pricing is totally off for doing ANY real work, even if you are an indian low paid programmer,

Probably you are right
(I live in Canada)
The fact of life is that professionals can do many things easy way, so they under-price their own skills

 

[NetTecture]

BUt think about it.

You take time to talk to the potential customer. Get the data, prepare the report. He will havea question or two. Data may get stuck somewhere (thanks to email filters).

If you take the real time even for a simple back test..... you get paid less than the workers at your local McDonalds.

Ergo: Bad business.

 

[rrumery]

Simon,

It hasn't been released yet, but take a look at www.QuantumCharts.com. This will pretty much amaze you.

Hi Guys

I want to back test some of my forex strategies.

I have downloaded Ninja Trader as I thought I could set up a strategy without programming experience or skill. I have tried to create a strategy but find the wizard and the help very confusing.

I have also bought back testing software called Forex Tester which runs fine and I need no programming experience to run short term back tests. However if I wish to run longer tests I must either have programming skills which I just do not have, or labourously go through the back test in manual mode, bar by bar.

I know I can run backtests on MT4 but again it seems to me that I need to be a programmer to do so. Even with the help of sites such as Forex Robot Builder it seems the tasks are beyond me - OK so I find programming daunting and yes it is too much for me....

So where can I gain access to back testing without the need to be a whizz programmer. I want to test over significant time periods and then I want to be able to run my strategies as automated programmes with a broker, (thought it was going to be Ninja Trader) ..........oh and I do not want to spend a bundle either.

Help !

 

[rrumery]

First, all of you who say that successful systems are only the ones that no one else has thought of is pure bunk. I have found the most simplistic strategies using pure common sense will perform just as good as the most complex, mind boggling AI type strategies. Second, Simon has a very, very good point. You don't need to know how to cook in order to cook something that has already been prepared or completely laid out for you. All you need to know is how to stick it in the oven and press a button. As it turns out, there is a program that is about to be released that does exactly this. You can create the strategies by dragging and dropping conditions into a strategy builder. There are things you won't be able to do with it, but for the thousands of traders who are in Simon's shoes, this is gold. www.QuantumCharts.com