When should you give up trading?

new_trader

Legendary member
Messages
6,770
Likes
1,655
At what point do you stop trading a system/methodology?

1) Once you have lost all your money?

2) 5-10-X losses in a row?

3) 3 months, 6 months?

4) Never? All traders/systems will eventually make money

Any ideas, tips?

Thanks
 
1) This has always been terribly effective for me. Every time.

2) Depends on your W:L and Aw:Al profile. If 5 consec losses (which ain't that hard to imagine) is acceptable within your system, why let it worry you. Everything else being equal and correctly balanced (Risk & Money Management) number of consec losses is just a factor. If you don't have any idea of what the highest probability of consec losses are for your system, you need to remedy that right away. Hitting it isn't an issue. Going beyond it by more than 10% would have me wondering a bit.

3) Length of time is totally irrelevant. It's the performance you're analysing.

4) Don't think so....
 
The following article makes interesting reading on this subject:

Improving performance with a filter to avoid losing streaks.

What if there was a way to increase a system's net profit by about 5%, while decreasing the Max DD by about 40% ? Would you be interested? I sure would.

This is every system traders dream - filter out the drawdown phase while getting in at the bottom, enjoying all of a system's run up. But the reason it is just a dream centers around the extreme difficulty in coming up with an indicator which filters out a system's losers while hanging on to a big portion of its winners. Cutting the drawdown is usually pretty easy, but the savings in drawdown is more often than not at the expense of profits.

Attain has been testing hundreds of ideas and filters over the past few months, in order to improve upon trading system performance. We are firm believers in sticking with a system - but with several prominent systems such as R-Mesa suffering new Max DDs over the past six months - several clients have called upon us to help them improve their performance.

Most of our early work on overlaying some system filters was based on market characteristics - looking at market volume, breadth, volatility, etc. While there have been some promising developments in this regard - most of these market based filters did not hold up across the universe of systems we track and have data on, and that qualifier was paramount to our research. After all - if we're trying to create a filter to minimize curve fitting, we don't want to curve fit the filter.

So we moved into the very tricky area of using the equity curve itself as a filter. Some of our ideas for trading an equity curve revolved around using stochastics or relative strength indicators to pick tops and bottoms in the equity curve, but we found the most success using moving average cross overs of the equity curve to signal whether to be "ON" or "OFF" a system.

Much in the way you might trade a stock around its 200 day moving average, the MA cross over filter we tested would have an investor "ON" a trading a system when the 10 day moving average of system equity is over the 200 day average, for example; and "OFF" the system when the 50 day average has dipped below the 200 day average. This is basic technical analysis 101, but its use on the actual equity curve of the system has been limited at best.

We tried several different moving average lengths for the fast and slow curves, and came up with several combinations that tested "ok" on the hypothetical results of 81 trading systems currently in our testing database. What's "ok"? The Net Profit divided by Max DD risk adjusted return ratio rose by an average of 42%. What's that mean in layman's terms - the testing showed the systems making nearly 50% more money for every dollar of drawdown when applying the filter. The Max Drawdown fell by an average of 16%, and the net profit fell by an average of -130%; with 41% of systems showing improvement using the filter. Here are the top 10 systems in the test using only pre-release hypothetical data:


This table shows the percentage improvement in Drawdown, Ending Equity, and the Net Equity/Max DD ratio for the listed systems after applying an equity curve filter. These numbers are the results of testing only, and do not represent trading in actual accounts. Please see the disclaimer at the bottom of the page.


But the testing really hit home when we applied the filter to only those systems we have actual trading results for. Using the filter across 48 different trading systems we have actual results for, our filter improved the risk adjusted returns for 83% of them (39 out of 48); with the Net Profit/Max DD ratio rising an average of 401%!! That's 400% more return for every dollar of drawdown than you would get when trading the system normally. The rest of the numbers line up with the dream of reducing drawdown while increasing return, with the Max DD falling an average of 38%, and the Net Profit actually rising an average of 5.63%. Wow! Here are the top 10 systems in the test using only actual fill data:


This table shows the percentage improvement in Drawdown, Ending Equity, and the Net Equity/Max DD ratio for the listed systems after applying an equity curve filter. These numbers are the results of testing only, and do not represent trading in actual accounts. Please see the disclaimer at the bottom of the page.

What is going on here? Why the difference in the testing between the hypothetical results and the actual results? That stumped us for a while, as both sets included the same commissions charge and slippage. But then it hit us.

If the hypothetical, pre-release testing of many trading systems has been developed on the known market environment up to that time, it is more than possible that the system will encounter a different trading environment in the future. And if you're a cynic and believe the pre-release testing contains a certain degree of curve fitting (intentionally or accidentally - it doesn't matter), then you're thinking that there will be a lot of poor trading environments for trading systems in the future.

So while the pre-release testing had little or no "bad" environments, the future performance of the system will have several such environments, making it not only more important to try and filter out those bad times - but easier to identify them, as there will be more of them (and they will last longer). In short - there's not a lot of bad (or long) losing streaks in pre-release testing, as that would not wet an investor's appetite in the first place. But there is the very real chance that there will be some bad losing streaks in the future. Whether there are or not, it seems to make sense to have some hedge against them happening.

The moving average filter signals a system is entering a poor environment by seeing the current performance of the system not match up with the long term performance. That signal means the current environment may be a poor one for the system, and lets the investor sit on the sideline until that time is over (as signaled by the short term system performance moving back to or above its historical norms).

The 2nd table above shows 10 of the systems which had the biggest Net Equity/Max DD ratio increase after applying the filter. It should come to no surprise that several of the systems on the list have lost money in actual trading (BWT Rock/N Russell, R-Mesa eRL, Cipher, etc.) - as those systems have encountered losing streaks which needed to be filtered out. It's common sense, really; those systems needed the help a filter could provide. But a filter than can turn a losing system into a winner has a lot of appeal, obviously. After all, a system's equity curve moves up and down just like any other piece of market data, and you should theoretically be able to trade those moves profitably.

So is it time to dust off some old systems like Blue Wave's Rock'N Russell, or I-Master? It could be. The results of the filter are encouraging, and it seems to be quite logical. Systems don't break, remember, they just become more risky (have more or longer losing streaks) as they cycle in and out of "phase". So the trick is keeping some exposure to the system in an attempt to profit when the system is "in phase", while using a filter to keep you on the sideline while the system is "out of phase".

Want to trade using this filter, or have a system you want to see it tested on? Just pick up the phone and call us at (800) 311.1145. We're not giving out the exact parameters of this filter due to our excitement of the possibilities it may bring, but can of course implement it for Attain clients.

- Jeff Malec


The tables didn't copy - sorry!

Simon
 
Thanks to both of you for the advice. My real trades appear to correspond with my back testing. The problem is I *think* I can see when it may not be a good day to trade and right now I’m in a losing streak (within back testing parameters).

Should I stick like glue to my plan like some experienced traders advise or should I follow my gut?

What about the ‘Don’t think, just Trade’ maxim?
 
new_trader said:
What about the ‘Don’t think, just Trade’ maxim?
I think there is an assumption you have a winning system in the first place...that is, with a winning system, don't try and out-smart it and guess when it will be even better/worse to trade it - just trade it.
 
Stick to your plan, but review it

new_trader said:
Thanks to both of you for the advice. My real trades appear to correspond with my back testing. The problem is I *think* I can see when it may not be a good day to trade and right now I’m in a losing streak (within back testing parameters).

Should I stick like glue to my plan like some experienced traders advise or should I follow my gut?

What about the ‘Don’t think, just Trade’ maxim?

It's essential to stick to your plan. However part of your plan should be to review your trades and your plan regularly. Determine what is not working and what is and take corrective action on your plan. This may well require time out of the market.

Part of your plan should include your exit strategy i.e. what conditions require you to get out of a trade. Part of the exit setup should include stops set at appropriate levels to prevent unacceptable loss, but to avoid early stops resulting from the volatility of the instrument.

The reason why you should stick to your plan is to enable you to analyse yourself and to prevent emotion from creeping in. If you follow your gut you may make some successful trades but ultimately you will make unacceptable losses and you won't know why or how they happened. You will also let emotions take charge e.g. to move stops in the wrong direction.

If back-testing worked and you followed your strategy to the letter then, assuming the market conditions have not changed, it should work in real-time. If it is not working it suggests that:
(a) your system did not take account of all relevant factors
(b) the market has changed
(c) you are not following your system religiously
(d) OR SOMETHING ELSE !!!

If you can eliminate/reduce (a) to (c) then you are giving yourself a fighting chance

Charlton
 
Charlton said:
It's essential to stick to your plan. However part of your plan should be to review your trades and your plan regularly. Determine what is not working and what is and take corrective action on your plan. This may well require time out of the market.

Part of your plan should include your exit strategy i.e. what conditions require you to get out of a trade. Part of the exit setup should include stops set at appropriate levels to prevent unacceptable loss, but to avoid early stops resulting from the volatility of the instrument.

The reason why you should stick to your plan is to enable you to analyse yourself and to prevent emotion from creeping in. If you follow your gut you may make some successful trades but ultimately you will make unacceptable losses and you won't know why or how they happened. You will also let emotions take charge e.g. to move stops in the wrong direction.

If back-testing worked and you followed your strategy to the letter then, assuming the market conditions have not changed, it should work in real-time. If it is not working it suggests that:
(a) your system did not take account of all relevant factors
(b) the market has changed
(c) you are not following your system religiously
(d) OR SOMETHING ELSE !!!

If you can eliminate/reduce (a) to (c) then you are giving yourself a fighting chance

Charlton

I bought a laptop with a mobile internet connection so I can trade from work. I am following the system RELIGIOUSLY AND METICULOUSLY. So it can only be (b) or (d). I have only made 19 out of sample real trades. Maybe it's too early to say.... I'm just getting the jitters. I suppose everyone has gone through this?
 
I've Made My Last Online Trade

I've Made My Last Online Trade

4/20/2005 10:56 (Memorable Commentary) Yes, America. While the rest of you dropped your infatuation with Internet stock trading when the tech bubble burst in the early 2000s and the market returned to normal, I stayed in the game. This check's arrival meant that I was now out of it.

http://www.investing-news.com/artman/publish/article_762.shtml

Worst case scenario, for sure.

trav
 
new_trader said:
I bought a laptop with a mobile internet connection so I can trade from work. I am following the system RELIGIOUSLY AND METICULOUSLY. So it can only be (b) or (d). I have only made 19 out of sample real trades. Maybe it's too early to say.... I'm just getting the jitters. I suppose everyone has gone through this?



Are you getting stopped out on losers? If so try fiddling with your stop level, sometimes after back-testing when you are eye-balling a real trade you stop a position that may not have stopped in the back-test.

Given that you've invested in the laptop, you must be sure on your strategy, I'd take the initial losses as a 'learning' exercise and persevere. Given that your capital is now reduced, you should obviously be trading in a smaller size, not to do so would be foolhardy. Most successful traders use a % of capital for each trade and will only commit % of their capital at any one moment, most use 2 and 6 as the %.

good hunting.
 
Its an interesting question that has suddenly landed flat in my lap...

I have just finished trading for the week using a near mechanical system. Discipline is not a problem and it has nothing to do with me, the results are the same in hindsight as what I made at the time.

But, for the first time this year, I have had a net losing week.... I can see on the charts that it was 99% due to the market not moving till US opening (I'm a cable trader predominately). This isn't always the case and next week could be more morning moves but....

Now to decide whether its just a bad week (inevitable occasionally) or time to ditch and try something else....??? When DO you know?! If only things were so black and white....
 
jezza888 said:
Its an interesting question that has suddenly landed flat in my lap...

I have just finished trading for the week using a near mechanical system. Discipline is not a problem and it has nothing to do with me, the results are the same in hindsight as what I made at the time.

But, for the first time this year, I have had a net losing week.... I can see on the charts that it was 99% due to the market not moving till US opening (I'm a cable trader predominately). This isn't always the case and next week could be more morning moves but....

Now to decide whether its just a bad week (inevitable occasionally) or time to ditch and try something else....??? When DO you know?! If only things were so black and white....

Did you test your system?
 
Tested 2004/5 and traded it live 2006 till now....

There had only been 3 losing weeks and a couple that broke even.
 
jezza888 said:
Tested 2004/5 and traded it live 2006 till now....

There had only been 3 losing weeks and a couple that broke even.

What was your longest uninterrupted string of losers?

What was your worst loss?
 
I don't tend to look at individual or even daily trades but worst case scenario pre 2006 was just shy of 2 weeks.
 
If you're not looking at trades, then what are you testing and what constitutes a worst-case scenario?
 
Not every trade is required to be profitable for a/the system (for want of a better word) to be overall profitable. When I say worst case scenario I mean whether an overall week is profitable or not, be it just 1 pip or 1000. Consequently, the worst case scenario as tested was a week coming in at a loss and then 3 more days in continuation losing before the last two days turning that week around.
 
jezza888 said:
Not every trade is required to be profitable for a/the system (for want of a better word) to be overall profitable. When I say worst case scenario I mean whether an overall week is profitable or not, be it just 1 pip or 1000. Consequently, the worst case scenario as tested was a week coming in at a loss and then 3 more days in continuation losing before the last two days turning that week around.

I'm not suggesting that every trade has to be profitable. What I'm asking is what you are testing if you're not testing trades.

I'm going into this primarily because of your comments regarding my posts. However, I will be happy to stop at any time.
 
I appreciae your responses DB.

Ok, may have worded it wrong... I am testing this on trades but I mean I'm not basing success on the string of single wins/losses but rather based on the results of a week in order to get a larger picture. I personally think anything less than the overall weeks P/L would be too minute to decipher the overall validity as a reliable system/income.

I know that this week has been less than the worst series of losses / worst case scenario but its deciding whether taking another week of losses and the consequent financial loss to prove its no longer valid or to keep on.... like each trade, there is no way of knowing the outcome... I could put in a hypothetical stoploss on Wednesday for the 'system' as would a single trade in order to give it room but cut it short before it gets any worse...
 
If you have not yet reached your worst-case scenario, whatever that may be, and you're considering exiting, then you may not trust your system as much as you should. If so, this is likely the result of inadequate testing.

If you believe that your testing was adequate and you do trust your system, then trade it. If you go beyond your worst-case scenario, then stop until you've figured out what's wrong.

On the other hand, if you can't trade your system as is, then you may as well stop now and start over. Anything you do will likely only make things worse. And even if they somehow make things better, you won't know why because you won't have tested whatever it is that you do.
 
Cheers DB,

Something to ponder over the weekend.... Perfectly content with my testing and more than happy trading the system as its not my only trading income but like my stops, I like to keep my losses tight but its the old 'newbie' problem.... 'keep going till it comes back in profit or cut it quick and move on....'

Jezza
 
Top