www.tradestationworld.com

Hi all TS8.1 subscribers and (TS2000i legal owners).

I've never subscribed before, but I'm intrigued to know what the tradestationworld.com forums are like - What goes on behind those closed doors?

Are there as many active and regular members as on T2W? if not, 50% of T2W membership?

Is there usually another member/moderator able and willing to help with coding of strategies?

What do you make of tradestationworld?

Does there seem to be lots of people trading successfully using TS8.1 mechanical systems?

I know this is a difficult question, and that your answers may not be that accurate, but in your judgement what proportion of fellow tradestationworld members (TS8 users) seem to be using TS8.1 for -
Producing fully coded strategies with full mechanical trade entry and exit signals?
Or, for producing discretionary-mechanical strategies where an entry or exit signal may be fully mechanically coded and the trade is then managed on a discretionary basis?
Or, simply as a charting package on its own, without the use of coded strategies and trade alerts?

What method of TS8.1 use strikes you as being most popular amongst subscribers?

Many thanks

jtrader.

TradeStation's forums are an excellent discussion area, obviously with a heavy emphasis on the TS platform environment.

As regards members - not sure of exact numbers, but theres approx 25,000 TS subcribers - dont think they all post, but its a very active forum.

If you post in the easylanguage support forum, yes there are moderators who will assist, as will fellow forum users - usually the later respond quicker. They will not generally do the work for you, though some will if you explain your idea well enough, the idea is they will help you learn to do it yourself.

I have used the forum in the past and it is good. You can get help with code for strategies that you may wish to use. It really depends on what you want from the forum.


Paul

TSW is a niche site, dominated by automated systems traders who have earned their power (and respect) by contributing reams of high quality code. Like any other site, it's also dappled with personalities and conflicts about approaches, but to a lesser degree than most sites.
In the last couple of years, the 'open' environment has abated by a significant degree as some of the major stars and code wizards move on, etc. Nevertheless, a wonderful body of projects and code snippets are still up there for the taking if you're willing to do the search time and work.
I'll restate my recent post about 'help'. Anecdotally describing a problem or 'vision' will not usually get you free coding. But, in most cases, if you have buggy but completed code (that you are willing to have go to the public domain), posting it with a logical description of your hangup will in 95% of the cases return a fix, a new alternative, or at least some help that progresses your work.
The board 'mind' will only consider and help with to a certain level of complexity. If you pass a certain point in system or indicator complexity, don't even bother to ask. It will just sit there...

hthy
zdo

TSW is a niche site, dominated by automated systems traders who have earned their power (and respect) by contributing reams of high quality code.

Click to expand...

Thanks ZDO.

So do you think a large proportion of fellow tradestationworld members (TS8 users) seem to be using TS8.1 for -
Producing fully coded strategies that have been backtested and optimised with full mechanical trade entry and exit signals (whether trades are fully automated or not)?
As opposed to using TS8 for producing discretionary-mechanical strategies where an entry or exit signal may be fully mechanically coded and the trade is then managed on a discretionary basis? Or, simply using TS8 as a charting package on its own, without the use of coded strategies and trade alerts?

Cheers

jtrader.

jtrader,

Good question! Don't know for sure. My original answer was about the make up and participants on TradeStationWorld site which is a sub-site of TradeStation services, not about the composition of TS users in general. I don't think TSW members are a representative profile of TS user in general. Virtually all users have automation goals - but implementing automation is tough at first...
As far as the percentages of TS platform users who are fully automated, my guess (just an off the top of my head opinion) is that it is a very small percentage (under 5%). Many try and for a host of reasons, turn it back off. Most short time frame scalpers come and go quickly - a tiny few persist and thrive.
I couldn't hazard a guesses as to:
what percentage are using the platform to generate system signals but are manually entering orders and managing positions.
what percentage are using the platform to develop 'indicators' from which to 'systematically' trade manually.
what percentage are using the platform for discretionary enhanced charting and screening (with RadarScreen)

Timeframe is an important factor. For example, for some longer time frames, setups and entries that used to be systems for me way back in the 90's are now so obvious to me that I can enter from a plain old OHLC bar chart, fake a position in code, and turn on a system to manage the trade... such discretionary entries, (ie skipping some signals, etc) would not be a good idea for system trading on shorter time frames, etc.

Sorry I can't be more definitive and helpful. It's a really good question - just don't know the answer.
btw the statistics even if they were known would not be good data to use personally about which way to go.
The only way to find out for yourself is to ...

zdo

Hi

I also asked a TS rep. similar questions. Here are the responses -

I will try and give you my best estimates on your questions but they
will only be estimates as I don't have specific figures on the size of
the forum.

1. We have around 25,000 customers using this version with accounts but
several more as subscribers. Most are active but I don't know how many
are inactive.

2. The EasyLanguage forum does have a moderator who assists with basic
questions but actual programming help is done on contractual basis for a
fee.

3. TradeStation is a tool that helps one build and automate mechanical
systems. The tools work perfectly but if the strategy itself is not
sound or designed properly then that is out of our hands.

4. I would guess about 10-15% of traders are using a fully automatable
strategy and another 15-20% probably have parts of their strategies
automated. We don't track this, nor can we, but this is my hunch based
on speaking with people.

5. Again, I have no way of knowing what people do with the platform once
they have it but I would say the large majority of people are using it
for some type of strategy development or at least backtesting their
strategies. Many people are still apprehensive about fully automating
strategies so most have them applied but still select to confirm the
trade before it is sent. The way to use TS is up to you but you should
feel confident on it's ability.

Click to expand...

It seems that only a minority may fully automate trading. Full automation of strategy trade entry and exit signals does not really appeal to me either as I don't see it as a necessity for the approach I would take. I would prefer to manually confirm/place trades (gives you something to do, and you can check the price, fill etc.).

I'm suprised at the seemingly low number of traders running fully automated strategies and am pondering the reasons & pit falls (mainly as I wish to go down that route next year).

Possible reasons:

- Psycological. Systematic traders still want to push the trade button so they 'feel' they are still in control.
- Practical. Possibility of positive slippage (ie better entry/exit with a small amount of discretionary input) if trades are manual.
- Technical. Issues in building/testing may not result in having full confidence in the automation process.
- Feedback loop. If you're not manually inputing trades you may not learn from or notice market reaction etc.

Any thoughts?

I think the main problems are down to:

1. discretionary traders who have an edge being unable to describe their edge in sufficiently mechanical terms to enable automation of it.

2. limitations of TradeStation that render certain types of strategy invalid: ie, no sub-minute granularity of ticks, no historical bid/ask data which means unabile to correctly implement limit orders and backtest without getting radically skewed results.

3. The pitfalls of over optimising and curve fitting, which is very easy to do in TradeStation

4. Traders who dont have an edge being unable to draw up rules for a strategy that are actually profitable (excluding those who are discovering what part 3 above is all about), after accounting for commissions and realistic slippage.

With regards to your point marked "practical" - if you have an automatable strategy that is profitable, but choose to execute it manually, in my experience positive slippage rarely happens - certainly not enough to counter the greater amount of negative slippage you encounter. Additionally, manual intervention renders any backtesting statistics invalid, so why do it?

re: TS reps response. His 10 – 15% is promotional embellishment. I’ll stick with my guess that under 5% fully automate.

re: Full automation
You CAN do it!
TradeStation sucks. It’s a #!&^ script engine. EasyLanguage is a stupid adaptation of Pascal programming language. The organization is dishonest from the top down. But TS works, even with its stupid limitations. Nothing better has come along. For me TS is like the Christmas song I just heard “Childhood joyland, mystic, magic toyland …once you pass its borders you can never go back”

I started trading as a ‘discretionary’ trader in the mid 80’s and ‘blew up’ more than once.
I started ‘systemizing’ with SystemWriter way back when. I have a REALLY low block number on the hardware locks from Tradestation 1.0 that ran on Win3.1 etc. and a FM (then satellite) Signal reciever (ie I was an ‘early adopter’ of TS). I traded spooz with trend systems through most of the 90’s. Orders were placed by phone, etc. Big picture lesson – it only takes one (or two) ‘special’ years to make it all worthwhile. The trick is staying in the game and being ‘ready’ to aggressively push it during the ‘windfall’ runs. Since 00, to adapt to the corrective / sideways market I have had the opportunity to start afresh on things that I didn’t understand way back in the 80’s (psychology, strategy, etc) and develop more adaptive ‘systems’. The following outlines the only way that works for me.

Most systems that are applied blanket style across all conditions will sooner or later be pulled back to the pack by the market itself – not by flaws in the system! Therefore, you have to
1. Code what I call “MarketTyping(tm)” The principle is “All systems work, some of the time” (Me) and the trick is go down to some complex, nasty, little ideosynchosies to know what to apply when. My “MarketTyping(tm)” is adaptive, but not at any neural net / AI levels. It’s much more reptilian…
2. Apply a portfolio of systems and use the MarketTyping(tm) to automatically scale them in and out AND up and down as market conditions warrant. Design systems that excel / have an edge in each market type then phase it in and out as MarketType indicates. (easier said than done – in code or with eyeballs and wetware) Note: entry signals are the easy part of developing an edge. The hard part of coding is adaptive position management / stoploss and exit placement. btw My setup and entry signals are as dumb as dirt, but each different position management approach for a setup and entry makes the combination a unique ‘system’ = a spontaneous creation of a portfolio of systems.
3. Apply sound allocation management. This is individual situation and goal specific, but in general, you have to develop adaptive formulas to keep you as close to your optimum load as possible. (fyi Optimal-F ain’t it)
4. Get a PhD level of understanding of testing in TS, then throw most of it out. Across time, most of my real results did not come close enough to the best or the worst ‘predicted’ results of back (and forward, etc) test to give them much weight. All the stats TS kicks out are useless to me except for a few key measures specific to my approaches. Have had to turn to non TS applications for “portfolio of systems” testing.
5. … 6. … 7. …

Add the basic frustration levels of trying to code at all. Add difficulties of coding around all the the gotcha’s and exceptions (ala Arbitrageur’s earlier post). Add the hours and hours needed to do it right. Add …(I’m sure I’m missing a few factors in this list) and you can begin to realize why so few are able to survive and thrive in a TS (or other platform ) fully automated environment.

My advice: read through this cr@p like it’s another Disclosure Statement and simply ignore all this ‘discouragement’ and get on with it !!!
Make your mistrakes as fast as possible - That’s the only way to know what’s right for you.

zd

Hi ZDO

I accept the point that I think a few may have been hinting at, that a trader could spend a long time going down the mechanical systems route with TS or Metastock design and testing etc. only to reach the conclusion that it's not what its cracked up to be and that discretionary trading is an overall easier and better option!!

Cheers

jtrader.