Deadline June

This is a discussion on Deadline June within the Trading Journals forums, part of the Reception category; I'm certainly not going to stop using the disktrading data, that's for sure, but I'll always do a direct comparison ...

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Old Aug 24, 2010, 9:44pm   #400
 
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Re: Deadline June

Adamus started this thread I'm certainly not going to stop using the disktrading data, that's for sure, but I'll always do a direct comparison of the trades of any new system against the Tenfore data for 2009 - present, and if they are reasonably similar then I'll do backtest over the whole disktrading data back to 2000.

I will also carry on using the Tenfore data despite the cost ($100 per month more or less) because I think it's probably closest to what the IB live feed is.

Obviously if Tenfore is just as different from the IB live feed as disktrading, then that's another situation, but I won't know that until September really.
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 11:36pm   #401
 
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Re: Deadline June

There you go... 100 dollars per month. No wonder they don't have a page with pricing for data. They want to keep holding you by the balls and feed you data little by little, because they make more money that way. For live data and trading you already have IB so why are you keeping them? For back-testing you agreed that the only option is disktrading.com. So why are you still considering and paying all these bull**** providers, such as fxcm and Tenfore... so let's get to the point, with the essential things we need, to develop a profitable system. All you need is IB and disktrading.com. I have a talent for simplifying things and getting rid of all the bull****, and these providers are almost scamsters, so I'd say "knock off the 1200 dollars per year bull**** (Tenfore) and play the game.



The game is creating a good system. All these different data sets are distracting you and you're starting from the details. Building a system is like learning to shoot. What gun can you afford that shoots? Disktrading.com. So you have to learn how to shoot with that one gun, and focus on the target. You can't keep on changing guns continuously or you won't develop your aim (or what it's called). First you learn how to shoot with one: i.e. develop a working system from A to Z on disktrading.com data and use it on IB. Then, years from now, you work on the details and verify that the system is working perfectly in every detail. Otherwise you will be like all my engineer friends who are ten times more knowledgeable than me, but are still always talking about building a perfect system, and haven't built a single one. Especially considering you had your "June Deadline" and you're already trading with real money.

My boss always says we have to review and process our suspicious transaction reports properly. Yes, but if we only process 1000 per year and there's 1500 reports coming to us, things cannot be done that way and in fact we are falling behind constantly - and this is against the law as well, if not more. You first have to focus on processing 1500 reports per year, and doing them as well as you can. First you make sure you do the quantity you're required to do, and then you focus on the quality. Here, like my boss, you're focusing on the quality when we're beyond the deadline as far as quantity. The deadline was June, and we're giving our money away to scamsters, because we can't choose which is the right data to use. Once again, let's knock off the bull****. Fxcm, Tenfore: scamsters. Disktrading.com and IB: no bull**** and to the point.

Last edited by travis; Aug 25, 2010 at 12:04am.
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Old Aug 25, 2010, 12:06am   #402
 
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Re: Deadline June

''The game is creating a good system. All these different data sets are distracting you and you're starting from the details. Building a system is like learning to shoot. What gun can you afford that shoots? Disktrading.com. So you have to learn how to shoot with that one gun, and focus on the target. You can't keep on changing guns continuously or you won't develop your aim (or what it's called).''

-----------------------

Spot on.

R
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Old Aug 25, 2010, 12:08am   #403
 
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Re: Deadline June

Adamus started this thread No, the reason it costs so much is that you're getting their live feed and that's their main product. The historical data is just a small secondary product for them.

For backtesting, at least the way I operate, I can only see up until the end of the last quarter with Disktrading and if I want to see last week, then I need to get it from somewhere else.

IQ-Feed supply both FXCM (basic rate) and Tenfore (premium rate)

IB are actually more like scamster in this subject than IQ-Feed. They advertise the availability of historical data and then when you've signed up and you're running, you discover their historical data is strictly limited availability due to "pacing violations" that they use to block your access if you ask for more than they deem reasonable. Plus the historical data is not a true representation of the live feed, it is sampled so the tick stream isn't 100% observed.

And finally yes I know I'm like your engineering friends who build ivory towers and never trade, compared to you, but this data situation seriously dented my faith and resolution that I had built a system that would work. I don't have the luxury of doing a year's forward test to discover that. I want to know what the data is like that I'm using and how close it is to the live data and whether I can trust it. In my situation with my system, disktrading was producing results different enough to destroy my confidence in the closeness of the disktrading - IB live correlation.

Your analogy about guns reminds me of a story I heard about the Matabele warriors who fought the English army when they arrived in Matabeleland. The warriors had acquired some guns, because they weren't stupid - they knew they'd get slaughtered otherwise. But they didn't know about guns and their instructor told them to adjust the sights upwards if they were firing long range, and they believed that meant it gave the bullet more power. So they always adjusted their sights to aim long range. I feel a bit like them with disktrading. I know disktrading data can be good, but I'm currently using it wrong with the types of systems I'm developing.
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Old Aug 25, 2010, 12:21am   #404
 
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Re: Deadline June

Then in modest opinion, I'd say it's time to change the systems, and work on systems that use "up", "down", "close"... if we don't have time to work with a microscope, let's try to do something with a hammer. The equipment and time to build a high-frequency or very accurate system seems to be missing, and you said you don't have the luxury to wait one year, so time is running out. I think let's change the timeframe to a lower one (I'd recommend 15 minutes - you went from daily all the way to one-minute, I am not mistaken), and the concepts need to be simpler. Anyway, somehow I am sure you got my point, even though you seem to disagree. It's a powerful point: knocking off the bull****, like that movie says. Of course I am missing many other points, because of which I am still unprofitable. But I don't think, as far systems, I get lost into details, which i think is what's happening here. We need to bring your systems from tweezers to a hammer. We don't have the equipment and time to build a tweezers-system.

You're presently talking about 4 data providers and comparing with one another. That's something i would expect from someone who has already made millions from his systems and is bored and doesn't know what else to fix.

Oh, and IB costs zero dollars per month, whereas you're paying 100 dollars to those other scamsters. So you can't really compare them: one is free, the other one is not. These data providers are distracting you, sucking your blood. I can't believe you're still paying all of them.

Besides, the slightly different data between IB and disktrading.com is like a second test to verify you didn't overoptimize your systems. If they work on slightly different data, they are good. If they don't, it's almost like a certification that they are not. Don't you think? So I'd say use IB (which is free) and disktrading.com (which is practically free) and build a system that is profitable on both. I would not feel allowed to pay Tenfore 100 dollars a month unless my systems were producing 1000 dollars a month at least, every month. Cut expenses, simplify, knock off the bull****, build a system that works on slightly different IB/disktrading data.

I won't bother you anymore on this - but I am really convinced about this, as you see i usually don't insist on things. Look, it's like when I was using an Italian broker 6 years ago, that charged me 20 dollars per transaction on a CME future. It's not acceptable. You can't build anything on a situation like that. Just like you can't build a future on a data provider charging you 100 dollars for nothing of value. All these resources are sucking time and money from you. You need to reduce the concepts, the timeframe, the resources... you need to simplify. Ok, that's enough. No more harassment.

Last edited by travis; Aug 25, 2010 at 12:34am.
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Old Aug 25, 2010, 1:15am   #405
 
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Re: Deadline June

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamus View Post
No, the reason it costs so much is that you're getting their live feed and that's their main product. The historical data is just a small secondary product for them.

For backtesting, at least the way I operate, I can only see up until the end of the last quarter with Disktrading and if I want to see last week, then I need to get it from somewhere else.

IQ-Feed supply both FXCM (basic rate) and Tenfore (premium rate)

IB are actually more like scamster in this subject than IQ-Feed. They advertise the availability of historical data and then when you've signed up and you're running, you discover their historical data is strictly limited availability due to "pacing violations" that they use to block your access if you ask for more than they deem reasonable. Plus the historical data is not a true representation of the live feed, it is sampled so the tick stream isn't 100% observed.

And finally yes I know I'm like your engineering friends who build ivory towers and never trade, compared to you, but this data situation seriously dented my faith and resolution that I had built a system that would work. I don't have the luxury of doing a year's forward test to discover that. I want to know what the data is like that I'm using and how close it is to the live data and whether I can trust it. In my situation with my system, disktrading was producing results different enough to destroy my confidence in the closeness of the disktrading - IB live correlation.

Your analogy about guns reminds me of a story I heard about the Matabele warriors who fought the English army when they arrived in Matabeleland. The warriors had acquired some guns, because they weren't stupid - they knew they'd get slaughtered otherwise. But they didn't know about guns and their instructor told them to adjust the sights upwards if they were firing long range, and they believed that meant it gave the bullet more power. So they always adjusted their sights to aim long range. I feel a bit like them with disktrading. I know disktrading data can be good, but I'm currently using it wrong with the types of systems I'm developing.
I glanced through the last few pages of this thread, so apologies if I missed a critical post that you made. But I really cant understand the problem?

With lower TF systems you have to use the same data for testing that you are going to trade from. Doing anything else does not make any sense to me? So if the reason why you are using all these third party data providers is that your brokers historical data is too small to test from, or likely to be inaccurate the answer is simple: Get a broker that has enough, good data that you can test from and trade from too...
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Old Aug 25, 2010, 11:50am   #406
 
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Re: Deadline June

Adamus started this thread Hi Ross

this is the one you missed:

The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse just rode through my flat

Just for the record, I have 2 data feeds - IB and IQ-Feed, and one dataset of historical data from Disktrading.

The systems I am running at the moment in NinjaTrader 7 for whatever reason - probably NinjaTrader's bug - always try to suck out historical data when starting and that causes problems with IB, because their history data servers are so bad. Hence the second feed.

I can get varying amounts of data on tap from IQ-Feed from Barclays, Tenfore or FXCM just by configuring the symbol in NinjaTrader.

Now what I am going to do is go over all the potential areas of interest for new systems and try to work out which ones would be the least sensitive to High and Lows, as Travis says.

The Forex Correlator sounds good, if it's not much work to put the strength meter algorithm together.

Meanwhile I've got a couple of systems running in simulated, one based on the 3 Ducks on 4 pairs, one on pivots on 10 and they're based on results from Tenfore data.
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